Illiteracy is :cool:

[utopian]

All of a sudden, it seems as though internet language is becoming the preferred method of communication. With little to no regard for the devices of correctly written English, it's all of a sudden such a bad thing to do to point out to someone "Hey, I have no idea what the fuck you're saying, maybe you could rewrite it so it's a bit more legible".

If you're trying to communicate your point to someone, make it clear and understandable. You don't need to be a literary genius when talking to people on the internet, but it helps if you're trying to discuss something to have the ability to communicate.
There's a self-perpetuating cycle of illiteracy occurring on the internet that is spilling into real life. People who had trouble at school with their spelling and grammar threw hissy fits when their teacher marked them down for it in primary school. In high school, they had trouble achieving good marks in English because they hadn't learnt, earlier in life, how to create a properly worded sentence. They'd get bad grades because of poor communication/presentation, but instead of acting like a 10 year old and throwing a tantrum, they would shrug their shoulders and say "Meh, maybe I'm just dumb". Add to this the fact that no-one really cares on instant messaging programs about your abilities, and you’ve got people writing inane dribble such as “u no i suck wif words”. Well of course you do, you don’t even know what you’re saying.

They then do nothing to improve their writing, and end up becoming incapable of constructing a sentence. You may have whinged and bitched about learning what nouns, verbs and adjectives were in school. Past, present and future tense may have gone right over your head. Unless you learnt what it was that was required to convey information in a logical manner, you may have trouble when it comes to writing something.

Even Engineers need to know how to write. There are reports to be made on all sorts of happenings. Mathematicians need to be able to explain their theorems with non-algebraic letters. Fashion designers need to be able to write a summary on what the new winter catalogue is going to be about.

People tend to get pissy when you attack their shortcomings. The illiterate are no exception. You mention the fact that you didn’t understand what they said and you get hit with a barrage of “OMG U NO WAT I WSA SAYING DON’T SPILT HARES ON ME SPELING.” The sheer force of such a large volume of stupidity hitting you at Mach 3 is enough to send you careening over backwards, into your collection of Time Magazine. It appears that they’ve become so oversensitive to even the mention of bad spelling that they’ll freak out and go on the defensive as soon as the word “what” is mentioned. Lighten up. Just because you wrote in an incoherent manner doesn’t mean I’m going to go and get you arrested. There’s no association out there who’s going to cart you off and throw you in jail for poor grammar.

You can’t defend poor English with “Oh, but he’s so young and it’s cute”. It only makes things worse. Encouraging bad grammar and spelling makes baby Jesus cry. It’s tolerable a few times, but the person needs to learn to put what he’s thinking in a manner that other people will be able to understand. There needs to be some sort of standard for people to communicate with. There is, it’s called “Formal English”. I don’t mean all the “thee”, “thou”, and “thine” stuff of Shakespeare’s time, I mean properly spelled words, correct sentence structure, the correct tense, and most of all: coherent grammatical form. “I am a footballer who likes to play tennis” is very different in meaning to “I am a footballer, who likes to play tennis?” especially if someone is about to slaughter tennis players.

There’s a lot (not alot) to be said on this topic, and I hope that some sort of serious discussion can come of it. There’s no point in jumping up and down screaming out “wah i cant spel”, it only makes you look like an oversensitive idiot. Grow a thicker skin and learn to write. It’s never too late to join the rest of the English speaking world and speak English.

[Fuzzy Dice]

post removed by fuzzy because he realized it was stupid

[MisterBishi]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Dice
I agree.

Grammer and spelling *Snip*

Didn't read the rest.

[Fuzzy Dice]

see above

[Bostonmess]

Originally posted by utopian
People who are had trouble at school with their spelling and grammar threw hissy fits when their teacher marks them down for it in primary school.

? :)

[robotoverflow]

The main problem with sloppy spelling and grammar is that for no reason at all people will take offence to others pointing it out to them. I might not be perfect with my grammar or spelling, nor will I ever write a best-selling novel, but that doesn't mean that any pointers I give should be rejected with the same contempt as harsh criticism. Unfortunately, that's how most people take it. It's OKAY if you make a mistake here and there, but you have to recognise that you're making mistakes and try to rectify that. Being careful with your typing isn't so hard. Neither is including every letter of a word. If you can't see and correct any mistakes yourself it shouldn't be taken personally when someone asks you to clarify what you were saying, since after all they're trying to understand what you're talking about.

Contrary to popular belief, asking "What?" is not another way of saying "You fucking idiot", although for some reason that's how its interpreted.

Arguing about wether or not you should be correcting yourself is pointless and time consuming. Worst of all, it shows everyone that you don't really give a shit about what anyone else thinks, and giving a shit is what forums are all about.

edit: grammar

[Grumblefish]

If you're trying to communicate your point to someone, make it clear and understandable.

I think you'll find that it is smarter to lead by example.


People who are had trouble at school with their spelling and grammar threw hissy fits when their teacher marks them down for it in primary school.


Second quoting for extra boom!

[utopian]

Shit, mixed tense and words that have been left floating. Still, I know that Grumble's posts contain errors from time to time. Maybe I ought to go to save thread ideas and post them in the morning, rather than trying to get them out before I go to bed.

[Grumblefish]

Originally posted by utopian
Shit, mixed tense and words that have been left floating. Still, I know that Grumble's posts contain errors from time to time. Maybe I ought to go to save thread ideas and post them in the morning, rather than trying to get them out before I go to bed.

Grumblefish tends to carefully review his posts that contain the complaints about spelling and grammar.

[ShadowNemesis]

Why is this thread called (Illiteracy is :cool)?

It isn't cool, but it is not the end of the world either.

[utopian]

Heh. I typed the post up in Word because I was scared of a browser crash. There were no misspelt words, but it didn't pick up on those tiny little grammar errors either. There's no excuse for mixed tense, though.

ShadowNemesis: It's because it seems that being illiterate is the key to being accepted these days. "o hay guyz i got a d in inglish i suck wif words" is the new "I got a brand new Atari 2600 and a skateboard on the weekend". And that if you point out to someone that they've made mistakes so densely packed that the post becomes incomprehensible, they totally flip out and accuse you of knowing what you mean but just nit-picking out of some desire to belittle them.

I'm the same with spoken English as well, to an extent.
"Can I have one of them biscuits?"
"No, but you may have one of those biscuits."
"Ain't them the same biscuits though?"
"No, those biscuits aren't in need of a lesson in pronouns."
"?"
"Get out of my kitchen."

And this conversation actually took place not with a seven year old, but with a seventeen year old.

[robotoverflow]

I've noticed that some people will enter Auto-defensive mode when you don't type in "10 year old AOL" around them, acting as if correct spelling is something reserved for geeks & nerds. It's great that illiteracy is so widely accepted that it has become cool.

[Wolfette13]

The most frightening part of the illiteracy of today is that it has become popular again with young ones who are sent sailing through each grade just to get them out of that class and into the next one. These are the same young ones who are going to run this country in less years than I care to think about. Granted I am not grammar/spelling wizard however, I do at least try to be clear and concise as well as grammatically correct along with the spelling issue.

[Bostonmess]

Maybe it's a form of rebellion, you know what teenagers are like :), the more you complain about something, the more they do it to annoy you.

[Bifrost]

I must admit I haven't experienced any sort of "outsider" feeling because I speak and write (on the whole) correctly (except when drunk), but I do cringe at the bastardisation of language which one finds amongst the illiterate or the grossly uneducated...No - call me elitist, but there are serious crimes of language going on every day because people don't know what grammar and sentence structure mean...

And I don't think it's driven by the internet, I just think that we see more of it because we're on the internet...I see people all the time in the physical world (both worlds are real you know) who can't complete a sentence without the word "fuck" in it somewhere and then even when it does make its inevitable appearance, the sentence would not stand up to logical, nor grammatical scrutiny anyway - however - I don't talk to these people because I don't know them and most of them are scary!...On the internet, I talk to everyone because NOBODY is scary...There are idiots, but no one who makes me feel threatened...

Now I'm going to destroy my own argument...Because I can and because I get all giddy about english (leave me alone I did a BA in writing)...

w00t! pr0n! h4x0rz! 1337! 3tc!

I think it's exciting to watch language evolve in new ways...It's the only reason we speak differently now than when Shakespeare was penning all of those fucking plays we had to read in high school (props to Shakespeare, I dig his stuff, but really - can we get someone else in there too? There's more than one good english language playwrite)...

I honestly agree with utopian and next time I read an American (or anyone else) put "then" instead of "than", I'm going to hunt them down and beat them with a large dictionary...BUT, many dialects and accents from different regions around the world only exist because people started speaking differently (whether because of education level or isolation etc)...

Australia has never had this sort of thing because we're so young as a nation and because we started too late (too close to the birth of mass media/radio etc), but look at the US - they were started by the Poms, just like us and look how their accents have changed over time (South vs Norther, California accent, that New Yorker accet, that Boston thing Matt Damon overplayed in Good Will Hunting "Bahston").

[scathing]

Originally posted by Bostonmess
Maybe it's a form of rebellion, you know what teenagers are like :), the more you complain about something, the more they do it to annoy you.

Remind me to complain that there are too many teenagers committing suicide these days, then.

[Bostonmess]

Ok, but on your head be it :)

[flounder]

Originally posted by utopian
The sheer force of such a large volume of stupidity hitting you at Mach 3 is enough to send you careening over backwards,
The word "CAREEN" refers to ships or small craft lying over on their sides. OMG LOL.:p

[flounder]

He said backwards. Next time you have a coffee with him ask if he meant "careering".
One thing for sure if I wanted to damage your nose WM, I'd just have to kick Utop up the bum.:)
Thank you, yes, I am having a fine day.

edit: and for my 800th post, standby! :p

[imp]

Wow you boys are getting Catty. (may not be a real word or spelt properly but see? See how much i care?)

I only have one thing to say.
What do you expect from Generation SMS?

I mean shit. You have high expectations Utop. Think of it as another shoe in for a job later in life b/c there are so many dumbasses out there.
And stop your bitching. :)

[flounder]

I apologize Imp.
I am not normally a bitch.:)
Lovely day over here in S.A, I am going for a walk.;)

[scathing]

I'm a stickler for correct spelling and grammar, and I'll be sure to let people know. While I don't pick on things that are obviously typos, if someone obviously can't spell then they should be told that its not a good thing.

I'm of the belief that words facilitates cognitive thought. Thus, if your ability to use words are minimal, it gives an indication of the level of thought you might have.

At any rate, the whole point of communication is to be able to clearly convey your thoughts to other people. Language gives a common point of reference, so if you're not going to use it properly then don't be surprised when people have no idea what you're on about, and tell you so. Otherwise, you're just spouting noise and wasting everyone's time. Arguably, that's reason enough for the moderators to delete your post. :D

It also reduces your credibility when you're trying to convince everyone of your point of view, yet you can't string a coherent sentence together. Its hard to believe someone when you've got no idea what they're on about, or trust that they know anything when they can't even spell properly if you figure out what they're saying.

Its one thing to use abbreviations in chat if you can't type fast enough to keep up (like people using "b4", "ne1" etc) since you're trying not to get left behind in chat, but when it carries over to non-realtime communication then it just makes you look stupid. There's no reason for typing like a 4 year old (unless you are one) if you're posting a message.

Its scary that you get these kids from countries where English is the primary language, yet their literacy skills are below those of non-English speaking countries.

At my last job, we had a sales chick (not native english speaker, but she was fluent and had lived in several English-speaking countries) who didn't feel like she needed to punctuate. I got into an argument with her about whether she needed to use correct english (plz was "OK" in her book, apparently), capital letters, etc when emailing clients. After a bit of a yelling match, I decided to leave it be. I wasn't responsible for her, and after the director had yelled at everyone about "professionalism" for a while, I figured she'd get hers soon enough.

[imp]

Originally posted by flounder
I apologize Imp.
I am not normally a bitch.:)
Lovely day over here in S.A, I am going for a walk.;)

I was actually refering to Utop's bitching, but oh well. ;)
Can I call you a bitch too?

[Bifrost]

Originally posted by flounder
The word "CAREEN" refers to ships or small craft lying over on their sides. OMG LOL.:p
Perhaps originally, but it is now in at least one respected dictionary as meaning to "go forward quickly while moving from side to side" (cambridge (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/) )...Quite different to what I found in the Macquarie (which is much the same as what flounder proposed)...

Words take on different meanings, often due to their use by popular writers...Alas these days, words' meanings changed often due to their mis-use by semi-literate sports commentators...

But, the fact remains that "careen" is regularly used to refer to something or someone moving out of control in one direction or another...

[BtrFly]

English language as a whole is a bastardisation of other languages. We have "borrowed" words from other languages, and used them as our own.... In the immortal words of George W. "The problem with the French is they have no word for Entrepeneaur". (sorry about the spelling).

Now there is the classic example of the borrowing of words.

However when it comes to learning how to correctly use the English language, many people are taught by example. Therefore if their parents swear, using incorrect grammar or other such informalities that so make up our language these days, then the so mentioned person will too.

Personally I prefer to speak correctly, and even type the way that I speak. I see no reason to take the short cuts, unless you are out of time, or do not wish to spend more on your sms bill than you have to. I have personally been asked if I am of English origin, because I am able to speak in correct English grammar, because my parents taught me how to, and that it would get me far. And for that I am grateful.

So to all those that are out there speaking incorrectly, please for your childrens futures, pull your socks up will you!

[flounder]

Originally posted by Bifrost

But, the fact remains that "careen" is regularly used to refer to something or someone moving out of control in one direction or another...

Words do change.
The first reference to the word I heard was James Cook & The Endeavour.He careened the ship at what is now known as Cooktown.In this instance there were several paintings showing the ship on her side.
That was a long time ago though.
I had always understood the word to have a nautical basis.

http://www.jcu.edu.au/aff/history/southseas/journals/cook/17700115.html

[Bostonmess]

If I were to buy a book, a piece of literature if you want, I would expect it to be perfectly written with correct grammar etc. When I'm on the net however, I'm more likely to meet people that may not have been lucky enough to be brought up under the same or better circumstances as more fortunate people. I'm more likely to meet people who are bilingual, but not as proficient in Inglish as others may be. There's also the chance that I might be reading someone's post that "suffers" from dyslexia or some other reading "disorder".

If we were to go to war with everyone who murdered the Inglish language we would lose; and America would win ;)

I can't remember reading a post on here that's consisted of such bard language that I haven't been able to understand it.

Some people are good with numbers, some people are good with words, some music, some painting etc. Not many excel at everything. The written word is not the only way to communicate. Why be so regimental about it? I realise that if you take away or replace characters in complex mathematical equations, by the laws of chaos theory things can go serioulsy tits up, but surely it's not that important in the Inglish language?

[beowulf437]

Words do change.

Yes words do change in meaning, spelling, and pronounciation.

awful - formerly full of awe. The meaning changed to something terrible in the 1860's.

artificial - formerly well crafted, full of art. Now it means fake the meaning changed because of the ornate decorations on objects during the Victorian age.

car- formerly a four wheel barrow. The meaning changed to mean a part of a train when railroads became popular, then to mean an automobile after WWI.

a napple-became an apple sometime in the late 15th century

flutterby-became butterfly also in the 15th century

and per se and- became ampersand because of lazy school children

bloody- comes from saying 'by our lady' too quickly.

Language is constantly evolving. If you could travel time and went to England 200 years ago you would think everyone had incredibly thick accents. 400 years ago you would only be able to understand only the most educated people but you would think they spoke too quickly. 600 years ago you would wonder why everyone was speaking german.

edit: because I still can't spell

[scathing]

Originally posted by Bostonmess
I realise that if you take away or replace characters in complex mathematical equations, by the laws of chaos theory things can go serioulsy tits up, but surely it's not that important in the Inglish language?

Take away or replacing characters in a word changes its meaning. After all, words are a sequence of characters. Change the sequence, change the word.

After all, by changing a few characters from "absolute legend", we can get "fucking smacktard". I could, of course, claim that I was calling you the former when I typed the latter but somehow I doubt plausibility would be on my side. There are less extreme-cases-to-prove-point examples (as given before) on shifting commas, but the concept is there.

Language is a protocol, after all, and for a protocol to be effective everyone has to adhere to the rules. Otherwise you get chaos. As one of the primary forms of communication, people should avoid its corruption. There's a difference between evolution and corruption, although both are change. The former is fine. The latter is not.

[hazza]

normally there is so many spelling errors and grammar mistakes is because the people who are posting on the subject really dont give a shit what other people think, and its quicker to just type whatever they have to say without bothering with punctuation or anything else.


if you are reading someones post and go "OMFG HE DIDNT CAPATILIZE THE "I"" then maybe you should re-think your motives for reading the thread.

[scathing]

Originally posted by hazza
normally there is so many spelling errors and grammar mistakes is because the people who are posting on the subject really dont give a shit what other people think

If you have that level of respect for your audience, you shouldn't throw a hissy fit when they reciprocate.

That and, as I said, if you honestly don't care what other people think, then why are you bothering to tell them anything anyway? Either you're a dickhead who enjoys wasting your own and other people's time, or you do care what they think and thus are just full of shit for thinking otherwise.

[Bostonmess]

Originally posted by scathing
Take away or replacing characters in a word changes its meaning. After all, words are a sequence of characters. Change the sequence, change the word.

After all, by changing a few characters from "absolute legend", we can get "fucking smacktard".

Deepens wart u mena buy a phew.

[beowulf437]

I think everyone is guilty of a few spelling mistakes or grammatical errors. Many people use "internet shorthand" in IM's or chat (c u later, k?). The ones that use massive amounts of leet speak, internet shorthand, and intentional misspellings, especially in board post, I just don't bother to read.

If they can't make the attempt to be understood, then their opinion doesn't matter.

[Bostonmess]

k

[beowulf437]

By the way I thought I might post a passage from my favorite poem. Yes it is in English.

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra

[Bostonmess]

'Cos we do get a lot of Saxons on here.

Grendel rox.

BTW have you ever read a post on here that you can't understand? If so, could I have an example?

[beowulf437]

Darn you're fast Bostonmess. I don't think this board is that bad. I really don't know why utopian had to post such a long rant.

Gees, he should try some of the boards my oldest hangs out in.

i fully 0w3nd teh gm wit my 133t ski1z cuz i iz teh badaz HaX0r ski1z k


edit: By the way I'm half Burmese half Danish, family reunions can be very interesting.

[thuvia]

I tend to agree with Beo on this point. This board is, in general, very easy to read and understand.

There are, of course, some statements that are open for interpretation and/or innuendo. :D

[utopian]

This board isn't too bad, but it's worse than Magic: The Gathering boards that I've been on. It's only restricted here to a few members. There are people that I have to work with that are reasonably illiterate and innumerate. It's very frustrating.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Originally posted by utopian
There is, it’s called “Formal English”.

Dear boy, it's actually called the Queen's English, don't you know?
There's a good chap. Run along now to the rugger field.

[utopian]

When I recognise the Queen of England as having some sort of influence, I'll make sure I change my opinion of the name of the language. So what happens when Charles becomes King, do we still call it "Queen's English"? ;)

[Chocoholic]

I know I am one of the frustrating few Utopian passes such kind judgment on.
Instead of throwing shit at people who can’t spell or throwing a “tanty”. I have some thing constructive to say.

Being Utopian version of “illiterate” myself I know how frustrating it can be to not be understood and believe it or not I have a friend with worse literary skills than myself and it very difficult to understand her emails on occasions. As it is so very frustrating for every one involved perhaps you should try and help people instead of making them feel stupid.

Just remember that some teacher/s didn’t do their job properly in the first place and now it’s my problem. A problem that could be improved with some hard work.

Reading is always a good idea as well as writing. I know there is little tolerance in same parts of the Internet, but it’s a great place to practice and improve your written communication skills and have some fun at the same time. Local adult educations centers also have a few literacy courses including spelling.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Originally posted by utopian
When I recognise the Queen of England as having some sort of influence, I'll make sure I change my opinion of the name of the language. So what happens when Charles becomes King, do we still call it "Queen's English"? ;)

Then it becomes the King's English, old bean.

[Dollputz]

This is more a rant than a proposal for debate, but...

I think there's a difference between people who are actually bad at spelling and grammar and people who are just lazy (the latter is much worse, in my opinion), and it has become easy and acceptable to be lazy with writing on the internet, so I don't think that reprimanding these people will help in the slightest.

I rarely come across people writing so badly on the internet, maybe because I choose my friends/places and they tend to be of the variety that can at least form coherent sentences. So it seems easy enough to avoid the offenders.