Amrozi [Archive]

Goat Boy

08-08-2003, 01:20 PM

I could not disagree more.

I do not think he should be put to death for a few reasons. I believe he should be locked up for the rest of his life. No chance at getting out. Ever.

First off it is no form of punishment, he welcomes it. He wants to remembered as a martyr. Don't grant him his wish.

Secondly life in prison would give him time to reflect on his actions, hopefully one day he realise the pain he has caused. I doubt it, but he may.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Killing him would only add one more the death toll from that horrible event.

My only concern for locking him up for life in Indonesia is that he may not stay there. Who knows how long Indonesia will stand for? He could be let out as a hero by the next ruler of Indonesia. Or even let out by friendly guards /army. As has occurred to other JI fucker.

Also Amrozi is just a poor dumb tool, it is Hambli we want.

Mattryx

08-08-2003, 01:22 PM

If you lock him up he'll be free before he has time to get sick of the food.

Goat Boy

08-08-2003, 01:29 PM

Also I did not respond to the idea of using cruel and useal punishment becuase it really does not need an argument mounted against it. It's just wrong.

Also it is the bible that says "an eye for an eye." I do not believe the Koran has such a verse.

Edit: "An for an eye" was old testament rubbish anyway that wirrten off in Matthew 5:38

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also

Tintin

08-08-2003, 01:30 PM

I heartily agree with all posts so far.

Goat Boy

08-08-2003, 01:45 PM

From Smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/08/1060145835355.html)

But some families of Australian victims, a group of British Bali bombing victims and Senator Bartlett have opposed the penalty.

"When you're fighting barbarism and terrorism I think you need to be careful not to descend to barbaric acts yourself," Senator Bartlett told ABC radio.

"In my view the death penalty is a barbaric act that we need to oppose in all circumstances."

Very well said. Could not agree more. Of course I am not an Indonesian citizen and I repsect their rule of law, I'm just not sure it is the best answer.

Chocoholic

08-08-2003, 01:48 PM

Killing him is not the solution for reasons goat boy said nor is locking him up in Indonesia. He should be punished and striped of all his human rights for the rest of his life and made to pay for what he has done. Cruel and unusual punishment is needed.

Naiad

08-08-2003, 01:54 PM

The law in Indonesia says he gets executed, therefore, he gets executed.

I do not advocate corporal punishment - particularly in cases where circumstantial evidence leads to sentencing - but the law is the law, whichever country you go to.

Amrozi bin Nurhasyim will not be a martyr unless the world media makes him one. If the media would just shut the fuck up about him and stop printing his fucking name (and ONLY his first name all the fucking time) on the front page in 78-point, bold Arial, then he would be just another execution statistic in the Indonesian Government records.

HOWEVER, I have every confidence that the world media (most particularly the Australian and US media) will recreate this man into the biggest martyr since Jesus because they seem to believe (mistakenly, I think), that it will sell more advertising space, which is the only reason any of us ever hear news.

I would like to think that the western media has a brain or a deep-seeded desire to help the greater good, but alas, I know otherwise. The western media are just a pack of penny-pinching fuckwits with nothing but dollars on their mind and it is for this reason that whatever-his-fucking-name-was (I copied and pasted it from the front page of some western newspaper) will become a martyr. :mad:

Fuzzy Dice

08-08-2003, 02:03 PM

how can anything be punishment if it's not cruel or unusual?

Being locked up isn't exactly a usual turn of events for most people. But it's become common place. Bring back flogging. Bring back lashes. If you got five - or ten - lashes for drunk driving, I bet you'd think a little harder about doing it again. Fines are effectively useless, especially against the wealthy.

Jail time? Unless you get yourself on the bad side of an inmate (or group/gang), dull, but comfortable incarceration is what you'll enounter in 'civilized' prisons. Boredom is not much of a punishment.

A lot of people fight for inmate rights, but frankly, that's a load of bullshit. If you commit a crime serious enough to warrant jail time (ie - major notice by the justice system) you forfeit your rights. Or at least, you should. Why would anyone stop what they do with pleasure and success because of a little temporary boredom?

*note: prison conditions can be much harsher than described here, and inmates can make life unbearable for other inmates, but overall, it's not much of a deterrent*

Execute him.

Princess

08-08-2003, 02:10 PM

How much will it cost to keep him in prison for the rest of his life??? can the Indonesian governemnt afford it???????

its a real catch 22.. but i think we just gotta trust what happens and hope that his martyrdom doesnt provoke anymore attacks

~princess~

Goat Boy

08-08-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Bifrost
and stop printing his fucking name (and ONLY his first name all the fucking time)

That is Indonesia custom. They generally only refer to people by first name. Even when refering to the head of state Megawati.

Naiad

08-08-2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Goat Boy
That is Indonesia custom. They generally only refer to people by first name. Even when refering to the head of state Megawati.
Oh, fair enough. I hadn't realised. I think it's still going to piss me off though. :rolleyes:

It's just so easy to remember a name when you see it every-fucking-day!

pleed

08-08-2003, 02:35 PM

I think he should be sentenced to sodomy.

Hired Goon

08-08-2003, 02:51 PM

It's a difficult decision for sure. However, my thought is that you've gotta make the dirty SOB scared. As it stands - he won't be scared until the firing squad is taking aim. What we need is a bit more unpredictability in the his punishment. Life in prison and death are two pretty bland alternatives.

I think that at a psychological punishment is in order - Clockwork Orange style. Break his will and then parade him in front on the cameras to see if he's still grinning. Many of the victims and families will only feel justice when that damned smile is wiped off his face. It would also serve as a good warning for any would be terrorists that they're bloody in for it should they get caught.

On the other hand - it's not as simple as that, is it?

rascuache

08-08-2003, 03:06 PM

No one, no matter what their crime deserves the death penalty. Imprisonment, hard labour maybe, but not the death penalty.

Has anyone ever watched the video, the executions?

Even before i watched this video i did not agree with either corporal or capital punishment, since i have watched it i am even more against both forms.

After watching the newscast where the victims families where shown to be happy about the indonesian governments decision to execute the prisoner i was appauled and sickened.

Where is the value in human life?

Capital Punishment is merely state sanctioned murder. Murder is murder, no matter the guise and it is morally wrong.

Goat Boy

08-08-2003, 03:31 PM

The other thing to consider is when ever an Aussie gets caught with a kilo of smack in their arse and get sentenced to death we object and get them life in prision. We won't be able to do that any more.

¯|¯ÿph0ïð

08-08-2003, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Goat Boy
a kilo of smack in their arse

A kilo?! Obviously not a virgin arse, that one.

Diva

08-08-2003, 04:41 PM

I have long been undecided about how I feel re capital punishment for some time. I can see the arguments for both sides.

However, I suspect if he was imprisoned for life, it would only be a matter of time before he walked out. Ask Twist - his mother is indonesian and he spent most of his life there. Corruption is so entrenched that you could probably start counting the days before people were bribed to let him out. Oh, not right away, not while all the media focus is on him. But next year, or the year after, when people have started to forget a bit? What do you think will happen then?

iaidoka

08-08-2003, 08:40 PM

torture. professionally.. like, find a doctor that is willing to waver that entire "do no harm" bit and keep him on the brink of death with lots of pain and suffering. for the rest of his life ^__^.

televise it. good ratings. good therapy.

Goat Boy

08-08-2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by iaidoka
torture. professionally.. like, find a doctor that is willing to waver that entire "do no harm" bit and keep him on the brink of death with lots of pain and suffering. for the rest of his life ^__^.

televise it. good ratings. good therapy.

But how would we be better than him and those in JI? We wouldn't.

However chances are I would enjoy watching that show, so long as they then moved onto Jim Carey and did the same.

scathing

08-08-2003, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by Bifrost
The law in Indonesia says he gets executed, therefore, he gets executed.

I do not advocate corporal punishment - particularly in cases where circumstantial evidence leads to sentencing - but the law is the law, whichever country you go to.

Amrozi bin Nurhasyim will not be a martyr unless the world media makes him one.

I think you've got corporal and capital punishment mixed up. Corporal punishment is floggings etc.

Even without mass publicity by western media, the fact that the guy was executed because he bombed the shit out of some western infidels while on the jihad would make him one anyway, and a lot of the more extreme Muslims would be riding that bandwagon.

scathing

08-08-2003, 09:22 PM

What has caught my attention is the hypocrisy.

There's someone else in the media that's facing the death penalty. His crimes (if found guilty) will be fighting against infidels in jihad for the Muslim cause. He's been trained by terrorists too. Evil ones that told zealots to crash big metal objects into tall buildings.

However, you never see any Aussies clamouring for his blood. You won't catch them crying out in the media telling everyone that, even though the people he fought for oppressed, tortured, and murdered many people, that he should burn in the lowest pits of hell.

That man's name? David Hicks.

I saw the clip on the news last night (and in the past), with Little Johnny the brown-tongued jellyfish saying that he wouldn't oppose the use of the death penalty on Amrozi, in complete contrast with the possible death penalty on Hicks.

Its that same "its fine as long as it happens to other people, but wrong if it hapens to us" shit. They're all for pre-emptively carrying the light of democracy and justice *chortleplode* to other countries, but unfortunately justice for one a person of one nationality is not the same as justice for the other.

I can understand people's grief; those that have lost loved ones can't see objectively (and nor would I expect them to). However, that doesn't mean the rest of us (like our esteemed prime minister) shouldn't. We'd like to pretend justice is blind, yet evidently its not.

I did read in the local tabloid, in the letters section, similar sentiments to rascuache. Apparently we're meant to be better than them, but the quotes from the victims' families sounds a lot like what Muslims in those countries have been saying about what should happen to Australians and Americans. There was no "I hope he dies" or "I would prefer it if he was just tortured forever". He wanted to see justice done, not malicious revenge.

locust

09-08-2003, 02:20 AM

Bring back lashes. If you got five - or ten - lashes for drunk driving, I bet you'd think a little harder about doing it again.

Or if you'd prefer to be a little less dehumanising, just take people's licenses away.

iaidoka

09-08-2003, 03:05 AM

drunk driving? lashes AND license taken away ^_^

*drunk driver killed my wifes best friend. dangerous thing, being a pedestrian, yes?*

Dynasoar

10-08-2003, 03:47 PM

A cowardly murdering scum like this one doesn't deserve to live.
He should be executed as the Indonesian law orders.
Those who disagree and say this will turn him into a martyr are talking out their arse. To not carry out the legal punishment because you're afraid of what that will allow terrorists to think means the terrorists have won...
And if he's kept in jail, he'll still be a hero to those who share his views...

Dynasoar

10-08-2003, 03:47 PM

hazza

10-08-2003, 03:57 PM

David Hicks shouldnt get the death penalty for anything. He hasnt broken any Australian laws AFAIK. So wheres the grounds for anything?

Also its a war... do people in wars get arrested for shooting the other side? isnt that a war is about. :rolleyes:

IMHO I think Amrozi is a bit of a tard... like... the way he looks and acts its like hes a few beers short of a case.

He shouldnt be killed, he should rot in jail. we dont want him being a matyr.

scathing

10-08-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Dynasoar
A cowardly murdering scum like this one doesn't deserve to live.
He should be executed as the Indonesian law orders.
Those who disagree and say this will turn him into a martyr are talking out their arse. To not carry out the legal punishment because you're afraid of what that will allow terrorists to think means the terrorists have won...

From the Muslim perspective, the American war machine rolling in with their big guns, smart bombs, etc, to impose their ideas by killing a whole bunch of people who don't agree (which would also be considered blasphemy) would be considered cowardly, murdering scum too. Perhaps they should face a US military tribunal, and the death penalty too?

As for "Indonesian law" and "legal punishment", its already been stated that the crime for which Amrozi has been convicted has been done unconstitutionally. The terrorist laws on which he faces the death penalty were enacted after the crime, and the Indonesian constitution (as well as the constitutions / common laws of most democratic nations) do not permit someone to be convicted of laws retrospectively.

Being found guilty of something that was not illegal when it was done (and I'm talking about the crime with which he's been convicted on, the anti-terrorist law, not the act he committed, to cut off you simple-minded fuckwits who think I'm saying that blowing up a couple of nightclubs isn't illegal) but then later made illegal is usually a hallmark of a despotic nation.

So before you go shooting off your mouth, you might want to actually think about the bullshit you spout. It makes you look like a complete retard when you say stuff that's so clearly not true.

If you really want "justice" and "democracy", rather than hiding behind them while committing your own atrocities, you should defend those lofty principles even at your own personal cost. When you compromise your own principles and sink to the level of terrorists to exact revenge, that's when they've won.

scathing

10-08-2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by hazza
David Hicks shouldnt get the death penalty for anything. He hasnt broken any Australian laws AFAIK. So wheres the grounds for anything?

Also its a war... do people in wars get arrested for shooting the other side? isnt that a war is about.

No shit. Then again, David Hicks isn't being tried in Australia either, nor did he commit the acts for which he's been imprisoned on Australian soil. Just because you're froma certain country doesn't mean you're only subject to those laws no matter where you go. So, what's your point?

As for "its a war", Hicks (and most of the Taliban) are being held as "non-combatants". From an international law perspective, the US government is asserting that they were not officially in a war (hence why they don't have to worry about impediments to "justice" like the Geneva Convention). So, as far as the US government is concerned, the people they've arrested weren't in the war.

Bostonmess

10-08-2003, 07:40 PM

Yeah, that's the way the US puts it, we Brits come out with the same sort of crap. Then they'll call it the "War on Terror/ism." IMO it's a war, two sides fighting for different things. I suppose we could be fussy and say that there isn't actually another country openly opposing us, but we'll bomb a few anyway.

I'm not exactly sure what Hicks has done. Is he responsible for as many losses of innocent lives as Bush/Blair etc?

Death penalty = Ok IMO, under certain cicumstances. Some people don't deserve to live. Would I be the executioner? No. Am I a hypocrite? Probably.

Death penalty for this guy? I would try and get him over in a western jail, he probably wouldn't like that. Hmmm, I shouldn't be so revengeful. I definitely don't think he should get what he wants. Plant a transmitter on him?

edeity

10-08-2003, 08:17 PM

arrrggghh. I hate naivety.

We live in stable western democracies because of one simple reason. We are the best at killing people. The reason we have checks and balances that we call "justice" and adherence to international law in our legal systems is because it is more efficient method of population control than just killing people who piss politicians off.

Islamic Fundamentalists wish to challenge that to become top dog. It is a war, but not between nations. Wars are fought with violence and innovation. If the side you are on fails to be violent or fails to innovate, it WILL lose.

Legal systems and the media are the modern weapons of this warfare, and far more effective than tanks. Moral equivalency between Amrozi or David Hicks and George W. Bush is irrelevant. Both are fighting to win. Hicks is just a soldier as is Bush. Do you think this will go away if GWB or Tony Blair are defeated in the next election over a voter backlash on the various Wars?

I am firmly on one side. It has nothing to do with individuals. Dont give a shit about GWB/Blair/Howard, but I fully support their policies.

Don't know how to say this enough, WAKE UP AND GET OVER THE FACT THAT BAD THINGS ARE HAPPENING. Blaming individual people for it is not a solution. This is classic case of what is termed Total War. We are living in it. It has happened all through history. Innovation and violence is what will determine the winner. Thinking nice thoughts about your fellow man isnt going to help in the near term.

So start figuring out what future you want to live in rather than bitching and moaning about those who have to make decisions.

Bostonmess

10-08-2003, 08:41 PM

Has anyone ever kicked the shit out of you? If so, maybe they had the same excuse, they just wanted to be top dog. Oh well, that's ok then, good luck to them.

The fact is as long as arses keep choosing sides, instead of trying to build bridges, we will always fight.

There are three sides in wars, two that fight each other and the third that advocates peace.

Personally I would prefer a little peace than the everlasting death, destruction and rebuilding our economies thrive on.

Don't be scared, you can still get pissed, stoned and laid.

I keep telling you. It's not democracy.

edeity

10-08-2003, 09:10 PM

Yes someone has kicked the shit out of me (for my wallet and shoes). The only thing that stopped them continuing was someone else kicking the shit out of them.

I support peace. But its not appropriate for every situation. In the me getting the shit kicked out of me situation, the way to address it would have been to provide education and economic opportunities for the person mugging me earlier on in their life. That doesnt change the fact that right then and there I needed someone to kick the shit out of them to stop me getting the shit kicked out of me.

Violence is the ultimate agent of change for power. It is a better world if violence isnt neccessary, but change is always neccessary.

The issue comes down the ability of a society to identify and then also have the ability to address risk (two very different things). No all future change risk can be mitigated, hence there is going to be violence as its worked it whos in charge and the limits of their power.

I do like your building bridges analogy. Inclusiveness is very important. This isnt a war between Islam and the West - as we keep getting reminded.

The only way the west can survive this war is inclusiveness and bridge building. To push for peace and civilisation. It is actually in the terrorists favour for us to hate Islam and kill lots of them, by doing that we weaken ourselves. But there still needs to be head kicking. To think non-agression will solve this is utterly naive. One of the Bali bombers just yesterday said all Australians are terrorists. He has rationalised that therefore killing any Australian is ok, and in fact a good thing. In fact he did just that. - not soldiers, not preachers, not politicians, not christians - just people who wanted a cheap holiday in the sun. More of his friends are plotting and planning my or someone like me's death RIGHT NOW. Im committed to a side whether I want to be or not.

I have never had any problem with Islam and still dont, was even looking at converting a few years ago. This war has nothing to do with religion, and everyting to do with battling political organisms. Our present society is genuinely in danger from this. This war attacks the fundamentals of the political organism of our society, in a far smarter and more ruthless manner than either of the world wars. The only thing remotely close was the battle against communism. We were in danger of losing that too. Comrade. Enjoying the bread queue?

Salaam.

Bostonmess

10-08-2003, 09:25 PM

There are more people that are peaceful than are violent. Unfortunately they don't make big bangs etc, so they aren't noticed as much.

As we battle this war on terror, do we create more enemies than we destroy? What made Amorozi so fucked up? What is it people like him want? Can we come to a compromise?

It is a sad fact that we can't really holiday in peace anymore, in certain places. And we never will in my lifetime.

The battle against communism. That's really funny, like communism is a great evil. I know that's how it was portrayed, but it was obviously bollox. If a country wants to be communist, what's it to do with us? Why should we care?

Enjoying what bread queue?

edeity

10-08-2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Bostonmess
Can we come to a compromise?

Yes. By converting to Islam, and then to the particular sect he follows, and then by following his particular Imam. Are you getting a picture here?

Bostonmess

10-08-2003, 10:07 PM

I don't believe that is what they want. I don't believe that is their argument. I believe that is what we are told, and stupidly a great deal of us believe it. While it might be the wish of every Muslim that other non-Muslims are converted to Islam, the fact that many people aren't is not a reason for war. Many are just the same as the Jehovah's Witnesses that come round. I can't see them pulling out an AK when we tell 'em we're not interested, maybe the other way round perhaps.

The wishes of Al Queda, are more of a "Get the fuck out of the Middle East" type wish. "If you don't, we will attack you on your own shores, and we will attack on our own shores" etc. "Stop supplying Israel with weapons" there are probably other requirements too. It's funny that you say:

I have never had any problem with Islam and still dont, was even looking at converting a few years ago. This war has nothing to do with religion, and everyting to do with battling political organisms. Our present society is genuinely in danger from this. This war attacks the fundamentals of the political organism of our society, in a far smarter and more ruthless manner than either of the world wars.

And I say: "Can we come to a compromise?"

Then:

Yes. By converting to Islam, and then to the particular sect he follows, and then by following his particular Imam. Are you getting a picture here?

What exactly is the picture you are painting? Kandinsky? Picasso? Dali? Some other abstract or surrealist nightmare?

Very funny, I'm laughing so hard I need a shit.

edeity

10-08-2003, 10:26 PM

Im differentiating between Amrozi and Islam. They arent the same thing. My problem is Amrozi and such like. Not Islam.

Islam itself does not preach forced conversion (unlike the virtual forced conversion of many american christian organisations linking food aid with proslytising).

Bostonmess

10-08-2003, 10:40 PM

Then why is it that it is the US and it's allies that are threatened? Why is not everyone who is not Islamic?

Princess

10-08-2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by rascuache

Where is the value in human life?

Capital Punishment is merely state sanctioned murder. Murder is murder, no matter the guise and it is morally wrong.

I havent seen the film but an EXCELLENT point!

Bostonmess

11-08-2003, 12:22 AM

Maybe so, but if you had a kid, and who's to say you haven't? And that kid got raped and tortured to death by a paedophile, would you be bothered if he died? I know I wouldn't.

Movius

11-08-2003, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by Bostonmess
Maybe so, but if you had a kid, and who's to say you haven't? And that kid got raped and tortured to death by a paedophile, would you be bothered if he died? I know I wouldn't.
Barlow: Mayor Quimby, you're well-known, sir, for your lenient stance on crime. But suppose for a second that _your_ house was ransacked by thugs, _your_ family tied up in the basement with socks in their mouths, you try to open the door but there's too much _blood_ on the knob --

Quimby: What is your question?

Barlow: My question is about the budget, sir.

Source: SNPP (http://www.snpp.com/episodes/2F02.html)

¯|¯ÿph0ïð

11-08-2003, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by edeity
Im differentiating between Amrozi and Islam. They arent the same thing. My problem is Amrozi and such like. Not Islam.

Islam itself does not preach forced conversion (unlike the virtual forced conversion of many american christian organisations linking food aid with proslytising).

Spot on.

Edetity is teh man

dozer

11-08-2003, 05:43 AM

edeity has no fukin idea, if he spent less time working out how to tie a tie and more time getting a clue he'd be better off.

death penalty is eye for an eye crap. dont you see he wants to be made martyr? then all terrorists can hail his name and pave the way for more eye for an eye deaths. he should be left in prison, death will solve nothing, except maybe giving some sad and bitter people satisfation.

Bostonmess

11-08-2003, 06:47 AM

Yup, the death penalty is what he wants, now I'm not exactly against it in principle, maybe there are times when it's right, but why give him what he wants?

edeity

11-08-2003, 09:06 AM

Death Penalty -

He says he wants it. Thats different to actually wanting it. You will note he has just instructed his lawyers to challenge his death sentence. His survival, and the survival of his ideals is dependant at this point upon political pressure that can be brought to bear on Indonesian politicians.

Im actually against the death penalty, but I do respect national sovereignty. If Indonesia (and the US for instance) has the death penalty, I respect the right of those nations to choose how to govern themselves.