National Socialists

[Scythe]

Last night, under cover of darkness, someone shoved a copy of the latest edition of 'The Nationalist' magazine in my
letterbox.


This is a newsletter published by the Australian branch of the National Socialists.


Do you remember the National Socialists? Those fuckwits who started WWII and undertook the single largest program of
genocide on the history of the planet?


Well, they have a newsletter.


Most of it makes little to no sense, being an almost incoherent string of vituperative ranting about 'Jewish Conspiracies' and
'Communist plots', but i'll quote a few of the more....interesting.... passages.



From the story: Lighting a Fire under the Red Crocodile
"This is merely one of the preliminary moves in the forthcoming struggle against the lefty swill in this city [Sydney], as the N.S.
blowtorch is apllied to the soft pink underbelly of the Commie regime."


From: The Real Jerusalem By Rev. Charles Dexter Ward
[Referring to Jews]
'Be under no misapprehension here, these are creatures of great evil, who thrive on deception. It is no surprise they are often
referred to as Satans Kids! [Their emphasis]

Reverend Dexter is a member of "The Church of the Exclusive White Christian Brotherhood of Australia."


From: War! Are you willing to fight?
"Multi-Culturalism is a form of psychological warfare and also a form of Biological and Genetic warfare. Psychologically, we are
being programmed to accept inferior species of 'Humans' as equals, when it is abundantly clear they are not.


And finally, from The Feminization of Australia referring to men getting in touch with their feminine side:
"This entire scenario is a tragedy manufactured by the Jews who know that White Men are the only ones capable of challenging
their control. This, of course, can't be done by White Men who, denuded of their masculinity, are bullied, pussy-whipped and
legislated into submission by a Matriarchal Dictatorship!"




I shit you not, these are all direct quotes from the newsletter. The title bar from the newsletter is at the bottom of the post.
I laughed myself silly reading this, but at the same time I was kind of scared that there are still people out there that continue to believe
that Hitler and his philosophy are the right way to go.


Never underestimate the stupidity of the human species.


Anyway, the guy that publishes this piece of shit is called Peter Ven Der Graf. I will accept bets about whether the asshole was
stupid enough to use his real name, but I doubt it.

The e-mail address they gave was zyklon88au@yahoo.com.au, and I stongly urge everyone to spam it until the prick's computer
crashes. Of course, by this time he may have fled to Latin America to avoid war crimes charges, but it's worth a try. :spingo:

[Scumbag]

I must admit Hitler did have some good ideas.


Imagine a world free of zionists! One where the media is owned by the masses and remains free from capatalist propoganda, one where palestinians could enjoy living on their own land without fear of helicopter gunships demolishing their homes, one where jews are an extinc race.

OK ill shut up :P

[geggle]

It's hard to judge the line between free speech, inciting racial hatred and censorship...

No matter what, there will be weirdos around... usually people looking for simple solutions to their problems, and that is what conspiracy theories provide.

[Scythe]

Originally posted by phoneyhuh
I must admit Hitler did have some good ideas.


You do realise that, as a Marxist, you would be one of their first targets? :)

[Scumbag]

Which emotican should I have used to highlight my sarcasm ?

[Scythe]

I should also mention that not once in the entire newsletter did they see the irony of advocating Hitler's brand of National Socialism in Australia, a country colonised by the British, who were one Germany's of the staunchest opponents during the war.

[cherry]

Originally posted by phoneyhuh
Which emotican should I have used to highlight my sarcasm ?

I believe it this actually ^o)

well according to the new msn anyway.

[beer_cAN]

There were actually a lot of British 'Nationalist Socialists' around, many of whom made big anti-war protests before and during world war two...

However, this newspaper bears the mark of those filthy, bible belt white supremacists that originate in the US...

HOW UNAUSTRALIAN!

[Movius]

Those zany national socialists, one can only wonder what whacky schemes of unstoppable evil they'll come up with next.

XAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXA!

[asskickergod]

Originally posted by geggle
No matter what, there will be weirdos around... usually people looking for simple solutions to their problems, and that is what conspiracy theories provide.

Or worse yet, people trying to provide solutions that had previously failed to problems they're imagining.

[maccabean]

yeh, i'm jewish

thanks

me and my brotherhood of evil want to take over the world

and you want to see me extinct...

of course i've done so much evil in the world....i'm full of evil...

fuck you all i feel like shit

[maccabean]

i just don't understand why people send that stuff around

what have i ever done to anybody???

....i'm not rich, my family doesn't control the media, we ain't communists, we support many charities, we love australia more than you'd believe, i'm not planning on taking over the world, i have a christian girlfriend, i've never been in jail, i've never said a racist word to anybody, we stand up for human rights etc etc....but despite all this I'm hated for no particular reason at all....only because i'm jewish....'

mabye australia isn't such a great place afterall, my greandparents thought germany was the best place in the world before the war



edit: last sentence

[dozer]

i wouldnt take it personally, i think it has something to do with a big wall, bombing lebanon and a sweet line of cash from wall street banks, or its just the usual anti jew rhetoric, its not really new.

i spose they just are filling the hole that loverly lass pauline left, like most of these hate groups when one head is chopped off another grows in its place.

[Movius]

Originally posted by maccabean
i've never said a racist word to anybody
It was a different maccabean that was crapping on about Iraqis being an inferior race yesterday then?

[Bostonmess]

Destroy a set of people and there is more for the others.

[Tyfus]

Kill them all, and there's some hope for this planet.

[maccabean]

if you read the post, i never said they were an inferior race...

thats a crazy assumption your making on my behalf

i just said that america shouldn't bother with them because they have a different culture to us that they could never change and america is naive in thinking we could change their way of life.

[maccabean]

by the way,

i realise that most people aren't like that...

its just a shame that those kinda people still exist.

[Movius]

Originally posted by maccabean
if you read the post, i never said they were an inferior race...

thats a crazy assumption your making on my behalf

i just said that america shouldn't bother with them because they have a different culture to us that they could never change and america is naive in thinking we could change their way of life.
I stand by my comment.

[Naiad]

Ladies and gentlemen, let the revolution begin here, as it is as good as any other place. The guy who writes the newsletter is a wanker. That is all I'll say about him. But what I'm angry and disappointed about is that everyone - you, me - everyone maintains this lower level of racial discrimination.

Before I get into my tirade on just how FUCKING STUPID the word "race" in this context is, I'll just remind everyone of something.

Judaism is a religon, just like Islam, just like Catholocism, just like Scientology (well, legally speaking anyway - I was making a joke there ;)). However we may desperately try to categorise fucking everything, none of these terms listed above separate humans from what they are - humans. And I'm not angry at you fine people, just at the world...Leave me alone - I'm hung over.

"Race" is a term that should be used to describe some sort of sporting or betting activity. To use the term at all to separate humans into the imaginery sub-groups is just simply wrong. And I don't mean wrong in the moralistic way - I mean it's incorrect.

It has been scientifically proven that there is no such thing as "race" in humanity. The colour of one's skin (generally used to dellimit people's "race") is a pigmentation difference, exactly like the colour of one's eyes and hair.

We are ALL humans, we can (most of us) successfully produce fertile offspring and it doesn't matter what colour our eyes, skin, hair or pubes are.

And don't come at me with this "Jewish race" or "asian race" shit anymore. It's all utter crap. You have a Jewish religion, you have a Methodist religion, you have a Mormon religion, you have people from different continents - but they are ALL humans and there is no fucking difference.

I challenge each and every ZGeeker to try and maintain a complete absence of references to "race" in the skin colour or cultural context in their lives. If someone asks you what a person looked like and they had dark skin - say they had dark skin! Nobody is actually black, so why say they were? It's really tough to do because sometimes it's easier to say "oh they were asian" or whatever - but just try it. I do. I don't always succeed, but I try.

The world needs fixing, so lets start fixing it and treating EVERYONE like a human.

/big rant

Edited: schpelling...

[gooey]

Originally posted by Movius
Those zany national socialists, one can only wonder what whacky schemes of unstoppable evil they'll come up with next.

XAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXA!


hahaha :D

[Scythe]

Originally posted by Bifrost
It has been scientifically proven that there is no such thing as "race" in humanity. The colour of one's skin (generally used to dellimit people's "race") is a pigmentation difference, exactly like the colour of one's eyes and hair.


You can of course take that a step further, and say that the same rights should be extended to nearly all living things, since there isn't a clear dividing line between humans and animals, any more than there is between different types of humans. The difference between a human and, say, a giraffe, is one of scale, rather than stages.

There's a thought, maybe I should send the wanker that argument and see what he thinks. :)

The part that worries me is that these guys are sufficiently prepared that they can produce their own publicity material. The fact that they have that much organisation is a worrying sign.
:(

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Isnt it funny how people can spot the propaganda in one of these publications, yet they are oblivious to the Fox/CNN propaganda.

I am not anti-semetic, however America's arse-licking of Israel pisses me off so much that, because of it, I possess the belief that Israeli's are a bunch of greedy arrogant fucks. I also believe that Israel is conducting itself in a manner akin to Nazi Germany, in relation to the Palestinians.

America fought the Iraq war to protect Israel, it said so itself, in fact so did Howard....why do you think the National Socialists are convinced of conspiracies??? What about the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons, yet doesnt answer to the Non-Proliferation Treaty???

Look at both sides to the story.

[Scythe]

There's nothing wrong with reasoned discussion, as long as the other side is also willing to discuss things, rather than bash your head in with a lead pipe. :)

Besides, the propaganda in most major news agencies is much more subtle, becuse the people working on it have much more experience the some Neo-Nazi with a home computer.

It is very difficult to criticise Israel because much of the Western world still feels some sense of unconscious guilt for the treatment the Jewish people have suffered throughout history.

The Israeli people are no more greedy than anybody else, they just happen to be surrounded by coutries that have been eager to destroy them for over half a century. A lot of the actions of Israel have sprung from fear, rather than hatred. A natural human reaction to fear is to lash out, and this applies just as much to nations as to individuals. Even given this, though, I agree that Israel's actions regarding the Palestinians have been far too excessive.

I generally consider myself an accepting person (not tolerant - tolerant implies putting up with something you actually dislike), but I have a hard time listening to the logically flawed arguments of people who openly advocate the extermination of an entire culture and religion, and who revere a man responsible for the single greatest period of death and misery in human history. Sorry, I guess i'll have to work on that. :)

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by Scythe
It is very difficult to criticise Israel because much of the Western world still feels some sense of unconscious guilt for the treatment the Jewish people have suffered throughout history.
[/B]

Almost no-one alive today is responsible for crimes committed 60 years ago. I totally dont agree with what happened however I also totally dont agree that the Jewish lobby is able to shut down a guy who wants to show a movie contradicting their point of view.

I used to be sympathetic to Israel...however I despise it because they have learned nothing from their own recent history and continually repress and exterminate a people, in places that Israel shouldnt be in because they illegally occupy it.

I like to remind people that while 7 million Jews were killed in the war, over 25 million Russians (military and civilian) were exterminated, along with millions of Slavs, Poles and homosexuals. However im tired of hearing about the holocaust against the Jewish people. Hitler had it in for almost everyone who lived east of Germany.

[Scythe]

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Hitler had it in for almost everyone who lived east of Germany.


And west, and south, and north.....probably up and down for that matter, had he thought of it. :)

[utopian]

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Isnt it funny how people can spot the propaganda in one of these publications, yet they are oblivious to the Fox/CNN propaganda.
Fox/CNN don't do letterbox drops.

[maccabean]

ok well i guess i'll be the one defending israel...due to my obvious biases

since when is israeli like nazi germany?

1. the israeli army will never specifically try and kill palestinians...or arabs....i mean....there are israeli arabs and druse and beduins living peacefully in israel.

2. the israeli army, retaliates and takes offensive mesaure to stop palestinian terror for goodness sake. could you imagine the outcry israel would be facing if it decided to go on a turkey shoot and kill palestinians for no reason whatsoever?

3. israel has attempted to discuss peace several times....namely with yasser arafat, who in 2000, walked out of meeings in camp david after ehud barak offered their own state and east jersusalem...he didn't get everything....but thats what you have to do to compromise

4. the israeli army is regulated by rules and controls that would never allow vigilantes, even jewish, to specifially kill palestinians without a reason......especially innocent palestinains.
on the other hand....suicide bombers don'\t care who they targer....women children....soldiers...they will kill as many people as possible. the israeli army does not target women and children

5. suicide bombers are FUNDAMENTALISTS ....especially hamas and islamic jihad....yes the same fundamentalists who killed 72 australians in bali. they will main and kill to israelis....and western society.

6. palestinian authority ....still has not recinded the article in the docrtine calling for the total destruction of israel....again...TOTAL
Hamas and hizbullah, and several other arabic terrorist organisations plan to destroy all of israel and do not wish to compromise whatsoever. israel....has said several times, that it wishs to see a palestinian state....these organisations do not want to live next to an israeli state whatsoever.

7. israeli is the only...i repeat on democracy in the middle east...and the most economically healthy one. it has no oil, no natural rescources and no other help than from america and one or two other countries. muslims on the other popularise everywhere else in the middle east, indonesia, malaysia,....northern africa, pakistan, iran, turkey, phillipians and many other countries

8. there are 6 million jews in israel there are 1 billion muslims living in arab countries....i repeat 1 billion.

9. there is no other place for jews to go....we have no other land
arabs....and it seems other sympathetic parties want it destroyed
. = jews should have no place to go....or call home

10. there are israeli arabs and druse living in israel as previosuly mentioned....they often fight for israel because they have a happy life in israel....ie...not in palestine and wish to live in israel...not in palestine....

11. there are hundreds of left wing israeli peace orgs....there are like 3 arab ones. israelis want peace more than the palestinians do.

12. i could go on and on....its not fair....and its about time you woke up and stopped lashing at the israelis cos its a good way to finally have a go at a jew

[maccabean]

i don't know if israel has nuclear weapons

but i would think that it would be a good idea if it did

iran and pakistan....have the "muslim" bomb....

and funnily enough, they are sworn enemies of israel.
israel thus needs a deterrance as well.

though could you ever imagine israel actually using them. i'm sure you'll admit, pakistan is more likely to use the bomb than israel.

and regarding the israel the land....its such a small fucken country.... give the israelis a break!
the arabs have the whole fucken middle east

[flounder]

Don't you ever get sick of arguing the point?
I do not think that you have one.

[maccabean]

i can't believe after that massive post, you just said i don't have a point!

well thanks for invalidating a fucken essay

if anybody would like to discuss this further, please pm me

[flounder]

Arguing is not going to make anyone feel better.
That is the issue.

[maccabean]

i understand,

i just can't understand why people take swipes at one side without wanting to know the other point of view

there is always 2 sides to the argument

it really irkes me

[flounder]

Don't you think that the world has become more complicated?
I do.
For myself I am concentrating on tangible things.
Maybe i'tll work,
Maybe not.
That's life.

[utopian]

Well that was worth checking the thread for.

[Naiad]

Originally posted by utopian
Fox/CNN don't do letterbox drops.
Well actually they do, but only to promote Fox/tel and CNN and other cable channels... ;)

[Diva]

BiFrost, one of my friends is a genetic biologist (or something like that) and has mentioned on occasion that there are in fact 6 different racial types classified by biologists. I don't remember them all, but they include

caucasian
mongoloid
negroid
semitic
asiatic (I think - that might be the same as mongoloid)

anyway, I can email her and get more details if you like.

[Diva]

Originally posted by Scythe
From: The Real Jerusalem By Rev. Charles Dexter Ward
[Referring to Jews]
'Be under no misapprehension here, these are creatures of great evil, who thrive on deception. It is no surprise they are often
referred to as Satans Kids! [Their emphasis]

Reverend Dexter is a member of "The Church of the Exclusive White Christian Brotherhood of Australia."


actually, Charles Dexter Ward is a character in HP Lovecraft's novella, The Strange Case of Charles Dexter Ward. CDW was an occultist and great-grandson of an evil magician, and he came to A Bad End.

A full copy of the story is online if you would be interested in reading it.

http://www.gizmology.net/lovecraft/works/c_d_ward.htm

of course, it makes you wonder why the writer in the National Socialist felt the desire to use it as a pseudonym

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
1. the israeli army will never specifically try and kill palestinians...or arabs

So are you saying that they just kill indescriminantly when driving through Palestinian towns in their tanks, but just happen to miss the Jews?

Keep believing that, dear. In other news, Israel has no weapons of mass destruction, but you can't turn a corner in Iraq without tripping over one.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
4. the israeli army is regulated by rules and controls that would never allow vigilantes, even jewish, to specifially kill palestinians without a reason......especially innocent palestinains.
on the other hand....suicide bombers don'\t care who they targer....women children....soldiers...they will kill as many people as possible. the israeli army does not target women and children

Israel / Palestine Border Checkpoints, South Park Stylings:

"Oh my God, its coming right for us!"

*blam* *blam* *blam*

[Scythe]

Originally posted by Diva
BiFrost, one of my friends is a genetic biologist (or something like that) and has mentioned on occasion that there are in fact 6 different racial types classified by biologists. I don't remember them all, but they include

caucasian
mongoloid
negroid
semitic
asiatic (I think - that might be the same as mongoloid)




True, but the classifications aren't based on any clear genetic dividing lines. There are small differences in things like skin colour, height, bone structure etc and when there are a sufficient number of these differences, some biologist draws a line in the sand and says 'the people on this side are one race, and the people on this side are another'. The problem is that exactly where the line is drawn depends very much on the individual biologist.

One of the reasons that scientists are continually discovering new species is that, when they go back over old specimens already collected, they find that one of them has a slightly longer beak then the others, and Poof! a new species of long-beaked honey-eater or whatever is discovered. If there's one thing I know about biology, whether human or animal, it's that there are very few clear dividing lines.


of course, it makes you wonder why the writer in the National Socialist felt the desire to use it as a pseudonym.

Probably trying to show of his education. Anyway, I doubt very much if a single person in the newsletter used their real name. So much for having the courage of their convictions. :swear:

[flounder]

Originally posted by utopian
Well that was worth checking the thread for.
*sighs*
The ubiquitous misnomer strikes again.:rolleyes:

[berserk]

Originally posted by maccabean
5. suicide bombers are FUNDAMENTALISTS ....
Just like David Ben Gurion eh? 1 man's fundamentalist is another man's freedom fighter, who would eventually become his country's Prime Minister.

7. israeli is the only...i repeat on democracy in the middle east...and the most economically healthy one.
The IMF doest paint such a pretty picture economy-wise (http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pn/2003/pn0332.htm). I can think of at least Saudi, UAE & Bahrain that have much better economic performance than Isreal. Before you go on about oil, UAE doesn't have any.

muslims on the other popularise everywhere else in the middle east, indonesia, malaysia,....northern africa, pakistan, iran, turkey, phillipians and many other countries

What's your point?

9. there is no other place for jews to go....we have no other land
But the Palestinians can just up sticks & fuck off to Jordan. Or are you willing to give then Gaza & a state made of of isolated bits of land sorrounded by Isreali fences & guns?

12. i could go on and on....its not fair....and its about time you woke up and stopped lashing at the israelis cos its a good way to finally have a go at a jew [/QUOTE]
Well its not fair that everytime some has a go at the Pope & the Vatican I don't feel offended as a catholic.

[maccabean]

ok here we go

Originally posted by scathing
So are you saying that they just kill indescriminantly when driving through Palestinian towns in their tanks, but just happen to miss the Jews?

Keep believing that, dear. In other news, Israel has no weapons of mass destruction, but you can't turn a corner in Iraq without tripping over one.


and of course these israeli tanks are just taking a sunday stroll to the park...

do you think that the israeli army does it for fun? and by the way, if you have ever been to israel, there are no jews living in arab towns. the towns are either arab...or israeli....very few (haifa, ramlah, yaffo...are the few exceptions....but no terrorism stems from these towns)

the tanks are there to prevent suicide bombings and other terrorist acts...that should be pretty obvious to you.

regarding weapons of mass destruction, if you were surrounded by 5 countries, jordan, saudia arabia, egypt lebanon and syria, who were hell bent on destroying you, you would have a last resort as well.

[maccabean]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by berserk
Originally posted by maccabean
[B] 5. suicide bombers are FUNDAMENTALISTS ....
Just like David Ben Gurion eh? 1 man's fundamentalist is another man's freedom fighter, who would eventually become his country's Prime Minister.

yasser arafat! is the world's biggest terrorist and his the leader of the palestinian authority!!

david ben gurion and many other israeli leaders did not blow themselves up on buses to kill as many people as possible!

7. israeli is the only...i repeat on democracy in the middle east...and the most economically healthy one.
The IMF doest paint such a pretty picture economy-wise (http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/pn/2003/pn0332.htm). I can think of at least Saudi, UAE & Bahrain that have much better economic performance than Isreal. Before you go on about oil, UAE doesn't have any.

UAE has no oil???

WTF? do some homework!
UAE is a major player in the global oil industry. The emirate of Abu Dhabi alone contains 10% of the world's oil reserves (98billiob barrels).

http://www.uae.org.ae/general/index.htm
and gdp wise, israel has 6 million people...saudia arabia has 20 million....yet israel's gdp is half of saudia arabias....which economically is fantastic. israel beats all other countries gdp in the middle east

muslims on the other popularise everywhere else in the middle east, indonesia, malaysia,....northern africa, pakistan, iran, turkey, phillipians and many other countries

What's your point?

my point is, jews have 1 country...israel...and its only one third the size of tassie and the arabs want to take that away. you see my point now?

9. there is no other place for jews to go....we have no other land
But the Palestinians can just up sticks & fuck off to Jordan. Or are you willing to give then Gaza & a state made of of isolated bits of land sorrounded by Isreali fences & guns?

and what do you give the israelis? .... doesn't leave much else...if you give the palestinians israel....its a pretty small fucken country!!!

[maccabean]

by the way,

proof for my statement regarding gdp

israel has the highest highest gdp in the middle east, besides saudia arabia... the country that controls most of the oil in that region.

noting israel has no oil.



http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2001.html

[berserk]

Originally posted by maccabean


david ben gurion and many other israeli leaders did not blow themselves up on buses to kill as many people as possible!
whats the diference between blowing up half the King David Hotel in 1946 by planting explosives & blowing up bits of the Jakarta Marriot in 2003 by driving up to the entrance in an explosives laden car?

What is the diff between the PLO & the IZL?

gdp wise, israel has 6 million people...saudia arabia has 20 million....yet israel's gdp is half of saudia arabias....which economically is fantastic. israel beats all other countries gdp in the middle east
This is untrue, the gulf states are much better off.
GEP per capita (PPP) 2002 est.: Israel - US$19000, Qatar - US$ 21,500.
Besides, what's the point of being the best amongst such economic basket cases as Jordan and Syria.


my point is, jews have 1 country...israel...and its only one third the size of tassie and the arabs want to take that away. you see my point now?
No, what has Malaysia, Philippines & Pakistan got to do with the Palestinians? No more than Warsaw, Berlin or New York has any relevance to Israel.

what do you give the israelis? .... doesn't leave much else...if you give the palestinians israel....its a pretty small fucken country!!!
Are the Palestinians less important than the Israelis?
Is it Israel uber Palestine?
If the 4+ mill in Singapore & 5+ mill in HK can make a viable economy out of their specks of territory, why can't Israel?
Because the Israelis are too busy taking additional bits of people's land and pissing them off.

[Scythe]

The Palestinians don't actually want Israel, they want back the bits of Palestine that the Israeli's took during the various wars fought in the last half century.

Of course, if the Israeli's gave back the captured territories, then a lot of middle eastern countries would see this as a weakening of the Zionist state, and invade Israel first chance they got.

[maccabean]

whats the diference between blowing up half the King David Hotel in 1946 by planting explosives & blowing up bits of the Jakarta Marriot in 2003 by driving up to the entrance in an explosives laden car?

What is the diff between the PLO & the IZL?

the difference is that the gangs like the stern gang and individuals like itzhak rabin, attmpted to destabilize the british. at the time the king david hotel was being used as military barracks....thus....a military target....the jakarta marriot is purely civilian...thus anybody who was killed was target...

the izl, never targeted women and children.
and the king david was just one incident. arabs blowing themeslves up to kill israelis occurs every month...often several times a month....often by the same fundamentalists who blew up the world trade centre.


This is untrue, the gulf states are much better off. Besides, what's the point of being the best amongst such economic basket cases as Jordan and Syria.

well some of them might be better off....like kuwait, but they do have all the oil don't forget. israel has been built from the ground up. before the state of israel, the land was just a hole without electricity sewerage, hospitals...water. etc etc...its just rediculous how far israel has progressed in just 50 years.

my point is, jews have 1 country...israel...and its only one third the size of tassie and the arabs want to take that away. you see my point now?
No, what has Malaysia, Philippines & Pakistan got to do with the Palestinians? No more than Warsaw, Berlin or New York has any relevance to Israel.

they are all muslim countries....the palestinians are fighting on behalf of all muslim nations....or so they say. to reclaim jersusalem....which is funny because its their 3rd holiest site. jersusalem is the no 1...the most central area in judaism.

Are the Palestinians less important than the Israelis?
Is it Israel uber Palestine?
If the 4+ mill in Singapore & 5+ mill in HK can make a viable economy out of their specks of territory, why can't Israel?
Because the Israelis are too busy taking additional bits of people's land and pissing them off.

no the palestinians are just as important as israel. but you are forgetting that palestinians want every single square inch of israel....not just ht palestinian state....why do you think the fence is such an issue....?? because they will not just be satisfied with the west bank and gaza. israel is about twice the size of singapore...which is extremely small. they have given the palestinians water, electricity, other ammenities and jobs including many other things, whereas, before the war of 1967, before jordan invaded israel ....and when jordan controlled palestine, they had nothing.

i do belive the palestinians should have a right to self determination and that they should have a country under certain circumstances...most people do....but israel has never said they shouldn't. i mean even the right wing hawk ariel sharon says he is willing to concede a state. hamas and other palestinians don't want to live next an israel whatsoever and will never relent their onslaught of terrorism until israel is destroyed totally.

i am willing to cencede a state for the palestinians even though

1. there are many other arab countries
2. there are many other muslim countries
3. the nationality palestinian pertaining to a regional arab...never existed before 1947. palestine before 1948....included palestinian jews, thus, the land did not just belong to arabs...it belong to all nationalities and groups....jews, british, christian, ottoman empire controlled it before the british.
4. palestine does not want israel as a neighbor and fundamentalists will ensure this policy is adhered to.
5. palestinians have lived better under israeli rule than they ever had before.

[maccabean]

excuse my quote lines....

no, if you read hamas and hizbullah and islamic jihad policy...they call for the total destruction of israel.

i'd find it on the web, but i don't speak arabic. though my egyptian nanna did before she was kicked out of egypt.


try this

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=39

[berserk]

hamas, hizbullah and islamic jihad can call for anything they want. JI is calling for a Pan-asian Islamic state stretching from Aceh to Mindanao & Java to Southern Thailand. Yet you don't see masses of young muslim men & women volunteering for an instant pass to heaven.

Maybe its because most Muslims in South East Asia have a job a life worth living and don't have their homes, families & livelyhoods routinely distrupted or destroyed.

[Scythe]

If you'll note, the people calling for the total destruction of Israel are the extremist terrorist groups. If terrorist groups represented the majority view, then they wouldn't be terrorist groups, they'd be the government.

they are all muslim countries....the palestinians are fighting on behalf of all muslim nations....or so they say

The Palestinians saying they're fighting on behalf of all Muslims is like the KKK saying thy're fighting on behelf of all white people. Just because someone says something doesn't make it true.

"I have a schlong the size of an engorged donkey"


*pause*


See, I told you it doesn't work. ;)


and the king david was just one incident. arabs blowing themeslves up to kill israelis occurs every month

The Israeli's don't have to blow themselves up, they have nice U.S. maufactured helicoptor gunships and tanks which can do the blowing up from a distance.


they have given the palestinians water, electricity, other ammenities and jobs including many other things

A lot of palestinians don't have access to these things, especially since they are prevented from living in the Jewish settler communities, for fear of terrorism. Also, i'd be careful saying things like the Jews 'gave' the Palestinians things. It implies a dominant-dominated mentality, and that's not a good insinuation, even when it's accidental.

[maccabean]

i think you would be surprised to hear that many more palestinians support orgs such as hamas than meets the eye.

i read a statistic that 49% of palestinians support an israel free middle east and align themselves with hamas. though to be fair this was a statistic generated during a wave of suicide attacks and retaliatory strikes.

If you'll note, the people calling for the total destruction of Israel are the extremist terrorist groups. If terrorist groups represented the majority view, then they wouldn't be terrorist groups, they'd be the government.

but would america and the rest of the world will allow an extremist state like palestine to be born. i doubt it.... no matter how much the world castigates israel, in this time of terrorism, thats the last thing it wants. did you ever see those doco's regarding 9/11....you had little palestinian kids cheering in the streets and the WTC fell to the groung....thats the type of state your looking at fellas.

The Israeli's don't have to blow themselves up, they have nice U.S. maufactured helicoptor gunships and tanks which can do the blowing up from a distance.

of course! they are the underdog, that's why they are right and the israelis are wrong....cos israel can do more killing than the palestinians....though your missing the point. israel shoots only to kill those who are arranging or on their way to carry out a terrorist attack against israel....

i've never heard of a situation where the state of israel has carried out an attack just for the hell of it, to kill as many palestinians as possible....though the opposite is true for the palestinians....you hear it all the time.

and zero retaliatory strikes is akin to like....me getting punched in the face....and me just standing there and saying...'thanks...do you want my ball now?' israel cannot let terrorist orgs get away with their acts, and if australia was in that position i doubt it would act differently.

of course, you probably think that israel as a nation are a pack of wolves that want to take over the middle east. all it wants is to be left alone in peace....thats all it has ever wanted.

[maccabean]

Originally posted by berserk
hamas, hizbullah and islamic jihad can call for anything they want. JI is calling for a Pan-asian Islamic state stretching from Aceh to Mindanao & Java to Southern Thailand. Yet you don't see masses of young muslim men & women volunteering for an instant pass to heaven.

Maybe its because most Muslims in South East Asia have a job a life worth living and don't have their homes, families & livelyhoods routinely distrupted or destroyed.


but did you ever stop to think why their lives are disrupted?...you think israel has nothing better to do than piss off a few hundred thousand people?

as mentioned before - israel wants peace....since its very inception. and it has tried many times at the bargaining table, but its always the other side who walks out unstatisfied, i meant they aren't even willing to take it step by step.

and of course, israeli lives aren't affected by this at all... (note sarcasm)

listen, i'm really representing israel here when i say that israel will give the palestinians almost anything they want....not everything....but you give and take in a compromise agreement.
when palestinians stop the terror...ariel sharon has often said that, and its been israeli policy for a long time now.

edit: sarcasm

[utopian]

Adolf Hitler should have killed all the jews, then we wouldn't have this problem.

:rolleyes:

[maccabean]

: : EDIT : : ixnay on the personal attacks

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Syria and Jordan would have the same GDP as Israel if the United States, or certain sectors of it, would be throwing money at them as well.

The Palestinians (and Arabs in general) nowadays have accepted Israels existence, normalised relations and only want a return to 1967 borders, which would mean relinquishing Gaza, the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Israels constant meddling in Lebanon. Every UN resolution that the US has vetoed (because the Zionists pay them off) has argued these compromises. Every vote in the General Assembly regarding this issue has resulted in an almost unanimous decision, the last vote, there were three 'nays', the US, Israel and the Marshall Islands, a former dependency of the United States.

Imagine your country being occupied for 60 years, with sub-standard amenities, life expectancy about 10-20 years below Israels. Wouldnt some people resort to barbaric tactics?? And why is it that three times the number of Palestinians have been killed than Israelis??? Doesnt it seem odd with all these suicide bombings??? Thats what I love about America and Australia, unbiased news reporting.

And by the way, why do religious nations still exist??? Why does Israel need to be a Jewish state, why does Iran, even the Vatican exist. The UN charter should include that a state be secular to avoid religious-based violence. And Israel should be abolished and replaced with a free state sponsored by the UN that allows freedom of worship for all three semetic religions, not just Jews.

[utopian]

Lighten up, maccabean. If I was really a nazi, I would've gone into a long monologue about WHY Hitler should have killed the Jews.

[berserk]

when palestinians stop the terror...

Similarly the Palestinians will say "when Israel stops their repression".

[maccabean]

Syria and Jordan would have the same GDP as Israel if the United States, or certain sectors of it, would be throwing money at them as well.

The Palestinians (and Arabs in general) nowadays have accepted Israels existence, normalised relations and only want a return to 1967 borders, which would mean relinquishing Gaza, the West Bank, the Golan Heights and Israels constant meddling in Lebanon. Every UN resolution that the US has vetoed (because the Zionists pay them off) has argued these compromises. Every vote in the General Assembly regarding this issue has resulted in an almost unanimous decision, the last vote, there were three 'nays', the US, Israel and the Marshall Islands, a former dependency of the United States.

of course israel pays them off....do you have any proof of that whatsover...?

and thats besides the point kofi annan is muslim and the chairman of the UN is syrian...

the thing is, before 1967, the west bank was controlled by jordan, before that it was controlled by the british, before that it was controlled by the turks, there has never been a land called palestine!

and its true, world opinion is against israel....god knows why, but we all know the media is doing such a wonderful job. at least you might gain something from my comments and understand that its not so clear cut.... there aren't many people in the world willing to defend israel. and i believe that the world hates israel because its a compromise for treating the rest of the world's muslim nations like shit...which they do... (thus i state that the muslim world needs to be treated better and that as fellow semetic brothers....i respect muslims and the muslim faith)

Imagine your country being occupied for 60 years, with sub-standard amenities, life expectancy about 10-20 years below Israels. Wouldnt some people resort to barbaric tactics?? And why is it that three times the number of Palestinians have been killed than Israelis??? Doesnt it seem odd with all these suicide bombings??? Thats what I love about America and Australia, unbiased news reporting.


as mentioned, if anything, israel is occupying jordanian land, not palestinian. but even then you must realised that in 1967, jordan attacked and lost and israel gained the west bank.

the reason 3 times as many palestinians have been killed is because israel shoots to kill to prevent attacks, not just in revenge. if you knew your house was about to be blown up, you do something about it before it happened.

thank god israel's intellegencia (mossad) is state of the art.

[maccabean]

Originally posted by utopian
Lighten up, maccabean. If I was really a nazi, I would've gone into a long monologue about WHY Hitler should have killed the Jews.


you just don't know who is taking a pot shot at you these days.

and beserk....israel will stop the repression...though i believe its been massively exagerated, when palestinians discuss the situation through diplomacy....then israel will cease what repression there is.

[berserk]

as mentioned, if anything, israel is occupying jordanian land, not palestinian.

Of course, no one lived on that land when the Jordanians controlled it. The Palestinians moved in after 1967 to take advantage of Israeli public utility services.

the reason 3 times as many palestinians have been killed is because israel shoots to kill to prevent attacks, not just in revenge. if you knew your house was about to be blown up, you do something about it before it happened.

Just like the Hamas people who knowing their homes will be bulldozed by the Israeli army, opt to take action the only way they know how, suicide bombing.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

of course israel pays them off....do you have any proof of that whatsover...?

and thats besides the point kofi annan is muslim and the chairman of the UN is syrian...


As I said......does the US pump the money it does into Jordan and Syria? No. It left Lebanon for waste, its done the same to Iraq.

Kofi Annan has repeatedly called for Israel to cease its aggression. I dont care if he Muslim, Christian or Pygmy, he was elected democratically to represent the United Nations. His views represent the vast majority of world states and as far as I am concerned, I have alot of respect for the man. I suppose, that because his point of view differs from Israels, he is also wrong. Like the other 230-odd countries who voted for Israel to get out of Palestine.

the thing is, before 1967, the west bank was controlled by jordan, before that it was controlled by the british, before that it was controlled by the turks, there has never been a land called palestine!

Actually thats incorrect..the Christian bible refers repeatedly to Palestine, in fact Palestine was also the name that Britain referred that area to when it was a protectorate.


and its true, world opinion is against israel....god knows why, but we all know the media is doing such a wonderful job. at least you might gain something from my comments and understand that its not so clear cut.... there aren't many people in the world willing to defend israel. and i believe that the world hates israel because its a compromise for treating the rest of the world's muslim nations like shit...which they do... (thus i state that the muslim world needs to be treated better and that as fellow semetic brothers....i respect muslims and the muslim faith)

The only clear thing to me is that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people similar to the way that Hitler was committing his crimes against the Jews.

And another thing, Israel is dragging its feet because it wants the Palestinians to commit another major crime, then it will have the excuse of "look at these terrorists" and will use that as an excuse to permanently annex the Palestinian territories and expel its current inhabitants. You watch what will happen.

as mentioned, if anything, israel is occupying jordanian land, not palestinian. but even then you must realised that in 1967, jordan attacked and lost and israel gained the west bank.


Transjordan (now called Jordan) was set up as a Palestinian state at about the same time that Israel was set up. Israel did to Jordan what Iraq did to Kuwait. Look what Saddams price was for that?

The only time I consider Israel deserved support from the west was when it was invaded in 1967. Since 1994, when Rabin was killed by one of his own, it has done little to nothing to foster good relations with its neighbours.


the reason 3 times as many palestinians have been killed is because israel shoots to kill to prevent attacks, not just in revenge. if you knew your house was about to be blown up, you do something about it before it happened.

Just like the 8 year old boy killed while his father was protecting him for dear life. I suppose he was also a suicide bomber.


thank god israel's intellegencia (mossad) is state of the art.

It should be renamed to Gestapo, that name would be more appropriate , given their actions and methods.

[maccabean]

[i]

Of course, no one lived on that land when the Jordanians controlled it. The Palestinians moved in after 1967 to take advantage of Israeli public utility services.

Just like the Hamas people who knowing their homes will be bulldozed by the Israeli army, opt to take action the only way they know how, suicide bombing.

i don't know why your looking at it from that perspective but i guarantee you that israel never started it, and will be the first to stop.

if suicide bombing is the only way, then are arab extremists who were responsible for bali, jakarta, 9/11 etc, is that the only way they know how? and the reason they do that despicable act is because they know they are going to heaven with 70 virgins and die a martyr. how could you condone such a despicable act?

there are other methods that minority groups have used....besides suicide bombing. you think that the palestinian situation is the very first time in history where a minority has not getting what it wants? looks at the kurds, the chechens, australian aboriginals, the northern irish, many african tribes...what a mess....the tibetans...the tamil tigers...etc etc etc
it just goes on....but only the palestinians use suicide bombings to make their point....

[utopian]

Blah blah Zionist conspiracy. CIA yadda yadda controlled by Jewish puppet masters. George Bush swims in Iraqi oil and cleans his teeth with Nazi gold. Israelis are trampled underfoot by Martian Stormtroopers and the Palestinians are in league with the great Swedish Devil.

Yes, I was the gunman on the grassy knoll, now where did I put my al-foil helmet?

[Naiad]

Originally posted by utopian
Adolf Hitler should have killed all the jews, then we wouldn't have this problem.

:rolleyes:
Dude, that is a fairly out-there kinda joke...

Remember: In print, nobody can hear your inflections... :)

[Mr Bigglesworth]

i don't know why your looking at it from that perspective but i guarantee you that israel never started it, and will be the first to stop.


If Israel wanted they could have stopped this a long time ago.


if suicide bombing is the only way, then are arab extremists who were responsible for bali, jakarta, 9/11 etc, is that the only way they know how? and the reason they do that despicable act is because they know they are going to heaven with 70 virgins and die a martyr. how could you condone such a despicable act?


You yourself stated that Muslims across the world are oppressed. Suicide bombers are deluded and dont think rationally, given the turmoil in their lives can you blame them. They cant even get past checkpoints to visit family or go to work because of their ethnicity.

there are other methods that minority groups have used....besides suicide bombing. you think that the palestinian situation is the very first time in history where a minority has not getting what it wants? looks at the kurds, the chechens, australian aboriginals, the northern irish, many african tribes...what a mess....the tibetans...the tamil tigers...etc etc etc
it just goes on....but only the palestinians use suicide bombings to make their point....

Kurds.....yes because Turkey, Americas great friend, has oppressed them. Because Kurdistan has never existed within a geographical concept, just as an idea.

Chechens.....lets not even go there. Russia has more land than any other nation on Earth and still wants more. Back in the Soviet days America would have cried foul over this, just like they did with Afhganistan. But "Russia is our friend".

Aboriginals.....decimated by illness and disease and drug abuse, not only fighting whites but also amongst themselves.

Northern Irish.....after a bomb that killed 80 people, about 20 of them children, they got devolution. Just because someone was gutless not to die by their own hand doesnt make them any more heroic.

Tibetans.....religion-bound not to fight. And with the most populous nation on Earth occupying you, would you?

Tamil Tigers....very bloody conflict with atrocities on both sides.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by utopian
Blah blah Zionist conspiracy. CIA yadda yadda controlled by Jewish puppet masters. George Bush swims in Iraqi oil and cleans his teeth with Nazi gold. Israelis are trampled underfoot by Martian Stormtroopers and the Palestinians are in league with the great Swedish Devil.

Yes, I was the gunman on the grassy knoll, now where did I put my al-foil helmet?

No actually the Cigarette Smoking Man was in the sewer and killed JFK...didnt you know that???

[maccabean]

As I said......does the US pump the money it does into Jordan and Syria? No. It left Lebanon for waste, its done the same to Iraq.

no but it pumps money also into palestine and egypt... israel is not the only country to get money frmo the US. it actually gives more money per capita to the palestinians than to the israelis.

and god knows why egypt needs it. but as i mentioned before, israel doesn't have any natural rescources...other muslim countries don't need american help because they are so rich anyway.


[B]Kofi Annan has repeatedly called for Israel to cease its aggression. I dont care if he Muslim, Christian or Pygmy, he was elected democratically to represent the United Nations. His views represent the vast majority of world states and as far as I am concerned, I have alot of respect for the man. I suppose, that because his point of view differs from Israels, he is also wrong. Like the other 230-odd countries who voted for Israel to get out of Palestine.

he represents each countries own interests and the PR of the UN.
and it makes a big difference when your the chairman of the UN who have a lot of ipersonal influence...

most countries contend that israel should allow a palestinian state...but that palestine should stop the terror first and should arrange diplomacy.

and besides that, the UN is so pro palestinian because like a quarter of the delegates are arab and/or muslim. from sudan to brunei.



Actually thats incorrect..the Christian bible refers repeatedly to Palestine, in fact Palestine was also the name that Britain referred that area to when it was a protectorate.

yes, as in the term 'you are a philistine' but you see we are talking about the modern arab defenition for palestine....
but the original philistines don't exist anymore, they havn't for 2000 years! palestine was renewed as a term by the romans and the current palestinians have adopted that term. but, in truth, before they were palestinian......what were these people called?
just...plain old arabs...living in israel...not that there is anything wrong with that. but you see palestinians have only called palestine a homeland since jordan lost the land to israel....why didn't they state their claim to the land before that...? beats me.



The only clear thing to me is that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people similar to the way that Hitler was committing his crimes against the Jews.



how can you even compare? are their palestinian concentration camps? no....are there israeli death squads? no....
does israel specifically murder palestinians because of their race/colour/religeon? no....
israel does nothing of the sort....and in 3 years of 'genocide' as you like to call it.... more people have died in the 9/11 bombings....perpetrated by people of the same beliefs.

i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when i say that mabye you fully do not understand what the holocaust was about and what was involved.....but israel certainly doesn't treat palestinians the same way.

if you say that israel represses palestinians...thats a valid comment....but hitler......aah ehem, did not repress gypsies, commies, russians, jews, gays, political oponents....he aimed to execute every one of them.


Transjordan (now called Jordan) was set up as a Palestinian state at about the same time that Israel was set up. Israel did to Jordan what Iraq did to Kuwait. Look what Saddams price was for that?


israel never invaded jordan, though yes iraq did invade kuwait.
in fact jordan...now peace partners with israel....has invaded israel on several occaisions....the first being in 1948. 2 days after the announcment of israel as a country.
israel barely had an army!

why did it invade....well...you see the reason is.....is because the arab states did not want to see a jewish land spring up right beside their arab lands.

these neighbors will always prefer an arab country next to theirs, not a jewish one. israel thus has ...as long as it exists....underlying enemies, that wish for its total destruction.

the reason 3 times as many palestinians have been killed is because israel shoots to kill to prevent attacks, not just in revenge. if you knew your house was about to be blown up, you do something about it before it happened.

Just like the 8 year old boy killed while his father was protecting him for dear life. I suppose he was also a suicide bomber.


first of all...

1. in an inquiry into what happened...it was found that israeli soldiers never shot at the boy, and the bullet was from a kalashnikov, not from an M-16.

2. you should ask why were the soldiers there in the first place.

3. like we are so brutal, the israeli army specifically aims at little boys hiding with their fathers....if anything it was a stray bullet...unfortunate as it may be.

4. propaganda...israeli soldiers died in that battle as well...i bet you didn't hear about that. and yes...it was a battle...and yes...shots were fired...and yes they may have been unfortunate casualties.

[LauraleeBug]

... don't understand why this shit goes on and nobody can stop it... it is totally ludacrious....

but then again, I'm a descendant of cockroaches, and WE'VE managed to survive a hundred million years without trying to inhialate ANYBODY... but ok, we're the bad guys.....

/me shakes head.... when will they learn??? :(

[maccabean]

If Israel wanted they could have stopped this a long time ago.

ehem

well its always arafat or the their delegates who walk of of the talks first....as mentioned in 2000 arafat walked out of talks in camp david...not ehud barak.

and don't forget....the palestinian authority have not dismantled terrorist groups such as hamas as they said they would

see

www.jpost.com

israel would love to have stopped this, but yeh, it has an obligation to defend its citizens.

[berserk]

Originally posted by maccabean
at the kurds, the chechens, australian aboriginals, the northern irish, many african tribes...what a mess....the tibetans...the tamil tigers...etc etc etc
it just goes on....but only the palestinians use suicide bombings to make their point....

Not true, the Chechens and Tamil Tigers have used suicide bombings. But then the Chechens are Muslim, so thats true to form by your book.

So whats the big deal about suicide bombing that sets it apart from other acts of terrorism? Whether the terorist straps a bomb to himself, drives an explosive leaden vehicle, aims an aeroplane at a building, or puts explosive devices in a building but gets out alive, it all does the same thing, kill innocents

[Mr Bigglesworth]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by maccabean
no but it pumps money also into palestine and egypt... israel is not the only country to get money frmo the US. it actually gives more money per capita to the palestinians than to the israelis.

I wonder why the Israelis possess the latest helicopters, night vision equipment and weaponry (and nuclear weapons that America or Israel doesnt have the balls to admit to), while the Palestinians can only muster the odd machine-gun or pistol???

and god knows why egypt needs it. but as i mentioned before, israel doesn't have any natural rescources...other muslim countries don't need american help because they are so rich anyway.

The Zionists were offered Uganda after the war, not only did they reject that but they demanded Palestine, the ancestral homeland of the Jews. Its also the ancestral homeland of the Christians and, some argue the Muslims, but they dont count.


he represents each countries own interests and the PR of the UN.
and it makes a big difference when your the chairman of the UN who have a lot of ipersonal influence...

And wasnt it the UN who argued till they were blue in the face about not invading Iraq. And guess which countries were the only ones in which popular opinion was pro-war.....you guessed, Israel and the US.

most countries contend that israel should allow a palestinian state...but that palestine should stop the terror first and should arrange diplomacy.

In a schoolyard fight.....who do you restrain first, the bully, or the weakling?

and besides that, the UN is so pro palestinian because like a quarter of the delegates are arab and/or muslim. from sudan to brunei.

And the other 3/4 of delegates. I suppose they just voted against Israel "for the hell of it". However, why did most of the non-Muslim UN states vote in support of Israel in 1967?

yes, as in the term 'you are a philistine' but you see we are talking about the modern arab defenition for palestine....
but the original philistines don't exist anymore, they havn't for 2000 years! palestine was renewed as a term by the romans and the current palestinians have adopted that term. but, in truth, before they were palestinian......what were these people called?
just...plain old arabs...living in israel...not that there is anything wrong with that. but you see palestinians have only called palestine a homeland since jordan lost the land to israel....why didn't they state their claim to the land before that...? beats me.


The recent history of Palestine (http://www.1upinfo.com/encyclopedia/P/Palestin-history-conflict-between-arabs-and-zionists.html)


how can you even compare? are their palestinian concentration camps?

Rafah.......best called a Ghetto. The UN and Amnesty international both decried the conditions there as a squalor and as third world, and appealed with Israel to resume utilities to the camp.


are there israeli death squads?

Seeing new faces coming out of those mortuaries every night on the news leads me to believe so, yes. In fact, I know an ex-israeli soldier who told me about how Palestinians should be shot first, even on the slightest feeling that the confrontation could be hostile. He shot dead a 15 year old Palestinian boy who was throwing rocks at his tank. This is his words.

does israel specifically murder palestinians because of their race/colour/religeon?

how does Israel blow up a car, belonging to a Palestinian militant, while the car is deep inside Palestinian land?


israel does nothing of the sort....and in 3 years of 'genocide' as you like to call it.... more people have died in the 9/11 bombings....perpetrated by people of the same beliefs.

Still doesnt explain how 3 times the number of Palestinians have died in comparison to Israelis.


i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt when i say that mabye you fully do not understand what the holocaust was about and what was involved.....but israel certainly doesn't treat palestinians the same way.

No, they dont. Thats why almost every NGO condemns Israel in this matter.


if you say that israel represses palestinians...thats a valid comment....but hitler......aah ehem, did not repress gypsies, commies, russians, jews, gays, political oponents....he aimed to execute every one of them.

Actually, Hitler initially wanted to send all the Jews to Madagascar....he had no intention of killing them, just getting rid of them. It was Goering who came up with the idea of the Final Solution.

Im sure if the Holocaust had never happened, Israel would be taking "stronger" measures against the Palestinians. The Old Testament is littered with stories of genocide.

Actually speaking of this, read here. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3158787.stm)


israel never invaded jordan, though yes iraq did invade kuwait.
in fact jordan...now peace partners with israel....has invaded israel on several occaisions....the first being in 1948. 2 days after the announcment of israel as a country.
israel barely had an army!

Yet they fended the Arabs off.....fancy that, I bet they did it with rocks.


why did it invade....well...you see the reason is.....is because the arab states did not want to see a jewish land spring up right beside their arab lands.

Or on their land even.


these neighbors will always prefer an arab country next to theirs, not a jewish one. israel thus has ...as long as it exists....underlying enemies, that wish for its total destruction.


Thats because it has always been stubborn, hard-nosed about everything it does. I have a Jewish friend who said "whenever someone hits us, we hit back three times as hard". I know most Jews to be like this, in fact.

1. in an inquiry into what happened...it was found that israeli soldiers never shot at the boy, and the bullet was from a kalashnikov, not from an M-16.

The IDF accepted responsibility for the killing. Still, the IDF went in as the aggressor, im sure that the father and child were putting up fierce resistance.

[maccabean]

I wonder why the Israelis possess the latest helicopters, night vision equipment and weaponry (and nuclear weapons that America or Israel doesnt have the balls to admit to), while the Palestinians can only muster the odd machine-gun or pistol???

well america gives money to israel to deter its neighbors - not the palestinians, if the palestinians did have missiles etc....you would see many more deaths and a mabye a full blown war...
why does palestine need such weapons, when israel is prepared to meet their demands as long as they put a stop a to terrorism.

and don't forget america does not want to see another afganistan, where you have the taliban using the same weapons against them, given to them to fight the USSR.

and another thing, if america had these weapons, then they would eventually fall into the hands of islamic extremists...and then you will really be looking at trouble.
orgs such as al aqsa matryrs....a listed terrorist organisation is controlled by yasser arafat...now why would america give these guys the big guns?


The Zionists were offered Uganda after the war, not only did they reject that but they demanded Palestine, the ancestral homeland of the Jews. Its also the ancestral homeland of the Christians and, some argue the Muslims, but they dont count.

no they do count, but your forgetting that in israel, both christians and arabs live peacefully. Countries like egypt, lebanon, syria, iraq and saudi arabia...don't have exiled all thier jewish inhabitants, including my grandmother...you know why? i don't know....but palestinians would not let jews live in palestine. before 1967, jews wanted to go to their holy sites but were barred by the jordanians.

proof of my comment? well jews aren't allowed to live in jericho and gaza.....which were handed over to the palestinians in 1996...so why would we think differently if they controlled all of israel?

And wasnt it the UN who argued till they were blue in the face about not invading Iraq. And guess which countries were the only ones in which popular opinion was pro-war.....you guessed, Israel and the US.

well israel voted like that because iraq under saddam hussain was a sworn enemy of israel..

ever heard of the jerusalem army? proposed by saddam to destroy israel. the proposal...including 1 million soldiers.

In a schoolyard fight.....who do you restrain first, the bully, or the weakling?

i don't see it like that, i see it as a neighbor of mine, trying to terrorise my family so i would move to another suburb....or be left homeless. i would restrict the terror.


The recent history of Palestine (http://www.1upinfo.com/encyclopedia/P/Palestin-history-conflict-between-arabs-and-zionists.html)


ok...well thats a bit biased don't you think...depends what internet site you look up

this is much better

http://masada2000.org/historical.html



Rafah.......best called a Ghetto. The UN and Amnesty international both decried the conditions there as a squalor and as third world, and appealed with Israel to resume utilities to the camp.

ok but its still not a concentration camp...specifically set up to kill palestinians.



Seeing new faces coming out of those mortuaries every night on the news leads me to believe so, yes. In fact, I know an ex-israeli soldier who told me about how Palestinians should be shot first, even on the slightest feeling that the confrontation could be hostile. He shot dead a 15 year old Palestinian boy who was throwing rocks at his tank. This is his words.

well, i have several israeli freinds, me having lived in israel for a year, they tell a different story. the media....comon...of course they will side with the underdog..they always have...always will..
which side to take and what makes better news? anyway the media is biased and left wing..... there aren't many jewish television viewers around the world....13 million jews...there are 1 billion arabs....which side do you think will provide the ratings?


how does Israel blow up a car, belonging to a Palestinian militant, while the car is deep inside Palestinian land?

well, if he is part of a terrorist organisation that plans missions of terror....i would think israel is doing the right thing....prevention is better than cure. often the israeli mission blows these people up because they are convicted criminals that align themselves with hamas or islamic jihad or al aqsa martyrs....often islamic fundamentalists....don't forget these organisations would not hesitate blowing up a nightclub or cafe in israel proper....

and they don't discriminate....

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0k0g0



Still doesnt explain how 3 times the number of Palestinians have died in comparison to Israelis.

ok how about this: if just as many israeli died in the conflict as palestinians, would that make you feel better...or happier?

more palestinians have died because these people are untrained, unequipped and hate israel with such intensity that they are willing to literally throw themselves at the israeli and face certain death.



Actually, Hitler initially wanted to send all the Jews to Madagascar....he had no intention of killing them, just getting rid of them.

dude, thats crap. i don't have to tell you that. read mein kampf if you don't believe me.



Im sure if the Holocaust had never happened, Israel would be taking "stronger" measures against the Palestinians. The Old Testament is littered with stories of genocide.

well thanks for marginalising us to the lowest common denominator.

of course, outside israel, we are all criminals.

muslims/arabs aren't the ones responsible for the world gripped in fear of terrorism...WE ARE!!

do you know how many freinds i have, that have been beaten up, sworn at, spat upon buy lebanese or other australian arabs, because they are jewish/israeli? and they don't even have anything to do with the situation!

when was the last time you heard of a jew beating an arab up?
its just not in our mentality and we just aren't like that.
the most violent jew u'll ever see is that wrestler goldberg on WWF




Yet they fended the Arabs off.....fancy that, I bet they did it with rocks.

we had no support from america or france at that time... see my history of israel up there. the state was 2 days old for god sake.

Thats because it has always been stubborn, hard-nosed about everything it does. I have a Jewish friend who said "whenever someone hits us, we hit back three times as hard". I know most Jews to be like this, in fact.

and he's your freind....riight.

well anyway i guess we should just roll with the punches and take them in our stride....never fight back....and just accept thats the way of life for a jew.....

[/b]
The IDF accepted responsibility for the killing. Still, the IDF went in as the aggressor, im sure that the father and child were putting up fierce resistance. [/B]

there are always unfortunate casualties in war.
i bet you didn't hear of the baby shot by a palestinian sniper in hebron.... can you imagine taking a baby in your sights and pulling the trigger?

http://working17.tripod.com/Israel-baby.html

those are the people we are dealing with

[maccabean]

pant pant pant

jeez i should write a book

[flounder]

: : EDIT : : ixnay on the personal stuff

[still life]

Originally posted by maccabean
pant pant pant

jeez i should write a book

maybe you should consider some sort of web site .... :)

[DrDivad]

: : EDIT : : ixnay on the personal stuff

[maccabean]

cheers

well i could write a book or set up a website, but to tell you the truth...i just hope the whole situation fades away and mabye one day we'll all get along.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
the tanks are there to prevent suicide bombings and other terrorist acts...that should be pretty obvious to you.

You're trying to use a large tracked vehicle, whose primary weapon is not anti-personnel, and its anti-personnel weapon is designed for point defense, to protect against individuals carrying a large amount of explosive on their person? Or perhaps to target a single vehicle from a closely-packed queue of otherwise innocent people?

I am curious to know the precision of the anti-armour warheads in your tank's primary cannon to be able to target a single human, or hit a particular vehicle (that would probably be packed into a tight queue since its near-impossible to tell from the outside if a van is packed to the roof with explosives, and thus would require inspection) and not destroy anything around it.

Fuck, the concept of "collateral damage" mustn't mean too much to the Israeli army then. Not even the American defense force, that has tended to run with the "quantity is the only quality you'll ever need" mantra, wouldn't do something that unbelievably stupid.

Either that or you're talking out of your arse.....

Which one is more "obvious" to me? Well, I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with Option "B", Troy McLure!

[utopian]

: : EDIT: : ixnay on the personal stuff

[DrDivad]

winr

[utopian]

19 year olds are :cool:

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
7. israeli is the only...i repeat on democracy in the middle east...and the most economically healthy one. it has no oil, no natural rescources and no other help than from america and one or two other countries.

Yep. In other words, Israel's been living off donations from what was, for quite some time, the world's largest economic and military power whereas its neighbours actually had to do something useful (like trade oil) to make their money.

Yes, there are more Muslim countries, but its not as if they give the same level of money and other support to each other. Its not as if any of them have the resources that the US could afford to throw at them.

Kudos. Israel's the international equivalent of the only child whose rich daddy threw money so they could set up their own business, who's saying that he's better and more successful than a member of a poor family, with plenty of other working-class siblings, but whose business isn't quite as flash.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
regarding weapons of mass destruction, if you were surrounded by 5 countries, jordan, saudia arabia, egypt lebanon and syria, who were hell bent on destroying you, you would have a last resort as well.

So by your "logic" (and I use that word very, very loosely), if I was in your stereotypical American public high school and I was getting picked on by big bad angry bullies, who've probably been quite violent (we're going very stereotypical here) it'd be OK for me to pack a sawnoff pump action shotgun under my clothing as a "last resort"?

[DrDivad]

Originally posted by utopian
19 year olds are :cool:

i was referring to scathing but you snuck in

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
yasser arafat! is the world's biggest terrorist and his the leader of the palestinian authority!!

david ben gurion and many other israeli leaders did not blow themselves up on buses to kill as many people as possible!

Neither did Yasser Arafat, you fucking moron, unless you're trying to convince us that he's somehow resurrected himself after blowing himself up to become the current leader of the Palestinian Authority.

Do you *ever* think about how flawed your shit is before you start ranting?

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
but would america and the rest of the world will allow an extremist state like palestine to be born

Erm, you're going to have to clarify "born" for me. Palestine used to exist. It lost land when an another sovereign country invaded them and now subjugates the local, racially and religiously different, populace? Its not as if it never existed before (though I suppose its convenient for some to forget), so how can it be "born"?

At any rate, America stormed the beaches in Kuwait to fight against that very situation.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
and its true, world opinion is against israel....god knows why

Yeah, mainstream US media is soooo against Israel and for the surrounding Middle Eastern nations. They just love Muslims. Uh-huh.


Using tanks to try stopping personnel, accusing the Muslims of using necromancy populate their Palestinian Authority, then this.....you don't need to wonder why more and more people internationally think you're a bunch of paranoid, trigger-happy whingers. The answer's staring at you right in the face.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
i don't know why your looking at it from that perspective but....

Aren't you Mr "Lets See Every Side to the Story"? You seemed to be beating that trumpet through this thread.

Oh wait, we should only ever consider both sides of the story when its your side.

You're supposed to ride the high horse, not have your head stuck up it.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
[B4. propaganda...israeli soldiers died in that battle as well...i bet you didn't hear about that[/B]

So you're putting an 8 year old noncombatant, hiding in his town, on the same footing as a fully armed and armoured adult who chooses to be sent into conflict, and is a member of a squad of likeminded and similarly equipped people, on the same footing?

In that case, I fail to see why you think that bombing (suicide or otherwise) Jewish civilians is any more despicable than that.

That's right! The 8 year old wasn't a Jew.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
i don't see it like that, i see it as a neighbor of mine, trying to terrorise my family so i would move to another suburb....or be left homeless.

Just because you don't see it like that doesn't make it so.

Israel is occupying Palestine, not the other way around. There's one well-equipped neighbour encroaching on the property of the other, and the other is retaliating to get them the fuck off. Well, there's no bonus points in working out which one is the aggressor and who's defending by what means they have.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
The recent history of Palestine (http://www.1upinfo.com/encyclopedia/P/Palestin-history-conflict-between-arabs-and-zionists.html)

ok...well thats a bit biased don't you think...depends what internet site you look up

this is much better

http://masada2000.org/historical.html

And you're trying to tell me that a web site that has the word "Masada (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=masada)" in its domain is going to be less biased?

What the fuck are you smoking, and how many lashes of the rattan are you going to get in Thailand if you get caught carrying the stuff?

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
of course, outside israel, we are all criminals.

No. Inside and outside Israel, you're a pack of whiney bitches.

I don't think anyone here has asserted that Palestine (or Muslims in general) have not doing the things you've accused them of.

Unlike you and your constant inane ranting about how Israel doesn't treat Palestinians as fucked up as they do, how 8 year old boys should have the same treatment as combatants, how the entire world is against you and for Muslims, or the other fucked up shit you've crapped on about.

[maccabean]

No. Inside and outside Israel, you're a pack of whiney bitches.


Either that or you're talking out of your arse.....

So by your "logic" (and I use that word very, very loosely),

Neither did Yasser Arafat, you fucking moron

you don't need to wonder why more and more people internationally think you're a bunch of paranoid, trigger-happy whingers. [B]

[B]You're supposed to ride the high horse, not have your head stuck up it.

What the fuck are you smoking, and how many lashes of the rattan are you going to get in Thailand if you get caught carrying the stuff?


i'm sorry if i offended anybody here...i sincerely am

scathing, i don't know if your muslim or of arabic origin but i never called anybody names or said anything offensive

you can quote me if i'm wrong

[maccabean]

i'm sick of this thread and my points

please, i could argue my point forever, but since i'm the only person on zgeek defending israel, i guess i'll leave it to you


and in regards to yasser arafat as a terrorist

http://middleeastinfo.org/article2094.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/WorldNewsTonight/profile_arafat.html


mabye i'm talking out of my arse, and because i'm pro israel...i guess there's a good chance that i am too.

but i've studied middle east affairs at monash, lived in israel for 16 months, lived in the old city of jerusalem for 1 year,
i've also got a diploma in theology and philosophy from the yeshivat hakotel school of theology in jerusalem, and on top of that i've been intrested in the topic for ages.
please don't make me scan the certificate.

i guess i have been talking out of my arse :(

but its ok, your points mabye valid if they weren't so abusive.\

edit: grammar

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
but its ok, your points mabye valid if they weren't so abusive.

Actually, since my replies aren't only abuse (well, you could consider them such if you're a zealoted paranoid), aforementioned abuse has got nothing to do with the validity of my points. They're two independent assertions. One is about the actions of the Israeli nation. The other is about your lack of mental faculties.

EDIT: Of course, if you don't have anything plausible to reply with, trying to cop out by accusing me of being abusive (rather than actually wrong) is always a choice.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
scathing, i don't know if your muslim or of arabic origin but i never called anybody names or said anything offensive

If I don't agree with you then I must therefore be a member of the opposition's demographic? I'd like think that there's no need to explain how narrow-minded that is.... There's more to the world than you and them.

[maccabean]

Erm, you're going to have to clarify "born" for me. Palestine used to exist. It lost land when an another sovereign country invaded them and now subjugates the local, racially and religiously different, populace? Its not as if it never existed before (though I suppose its convenient for some to forget), so how can it be "born"?

no, palestine has never existed as a muslim state.

If I don't agree with you then I must therefore be a member of the opposition's demographic? I'd like think that there's no need to explain how narrow-minded that is.... There's more to the world than you and them.

no, but there is us, against you, opponents of the state of israel and there i would think that there is a good chance that you are of that demographic because, i've only copped abuse like that from people of that demographic when putting forward my points in an argument.

Actually, since my replies aren't only abuse (well, you could consider them such if you're a zealoted paranoid), aforementioned abuse has got nothing to do with the validity of my points.

your right, the more abusive you are, the more correct your points are. i don't like to suffer abuse, so i tend not to read the posts

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
no, palestine has never existed as a muslim state.

no, but there is us, against you, opponents of the state of israel and there i would think that there is a good chance that you are of that demographic because, i've only copped abuse like that from people of that demographic when putting forward my points in an argument.

your right, the more abusive you are, the more correct your points are. i don't like to suffer abuse, so i tend not to read the posts

Firstly, I never asked about Palestine as a "Muslim State". I asked about Palestine as a sovereign land, regardless of the religion of its populace. This place existed before Israel decided to occupy it forcefully. Funnily enough, the UN (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html) makes reference to a Palestinian Arab state (that may or may not be Muslim), before Israel occupied it during the 1967 war.

I do realise that you consider the UN, along with the rest of the world, to be persecuting Israel of course, so this "bias" and "propaganda" may not be relevant in your open-mindedness.

In your personal experience its the case that almost anyone who disagrees with you must be Arab / Muslim (even though you then inconsitently go around accusing the entire world of being against you, but since it goes against your point of view we'll ignore your constant lapses), so it must be true in all cases. Right. You must have the sum total of every Jewish / non-Jewish interaction and discussion under your belt to make such an "informed" decision.

And no, that's not what I fucking said. I said that my abuse and my points citing the lack of credibility in your assertions are not related. Being more (or less) abusive does not make my points any more or less right. Try *reading*, and then comprehending, what I said. You do know what the word independent (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=independent) means, right? Its definitions 2 and 3 in the adjective, to make it easy for you, if you're really that dense. I do realise its someone else's point of view that's not your own, but it'll do it some good.

I don't like people who regurgitate mindless drivel without thinking about how stupid they sound, so I tend to tell them so (and point out where and why they're being stupid).

[maccabean]

i've said this before somewhere else in my post,

because nobody on zgeek is pro israel, and i am, i thought well if there are going to be 2 sides to every argument, i should let people know the israeli side...because nobody else here can give it.
and i would say that i'm pretty informed.

to say that my point of view is better than anybody else's is pretty arrogant.

if you don't agree with me, thats fine but the topic stemmed from somebody saying

I am not anti-semetic, however America's arse-licking of Israel pisses me off so much that, because of it, I possess the belief that Israeli's are a bunch of greedy arrogant fucks. I also believe that Israel is conducting itself in a manner akin to Nazi Germany, in relation to the Palestinians.

i found that really offensive... imagine if i called your race a bunch of arrogant fucks

[asskickergod]

Did the image of two retarded kids mounted on electric wheel chairs jousting with plastic rakes just pop into anyone else's head?

[flounder]

Originally posted by asskickergod
Did the image of two retarded kids mounted on electric wheel chairs jousting with plastic rakes just pop into anyone else's head?
No.
Should it?.

[asskickergod]

Nope, not anymore. Now I'm envisioning a five year old in his Osh Gosh Bigosh overalls and beanie cap repeating the phrase, "but, why?" to every explanation he's given.

[flounder]

Originally posted by asskickergod
Nope, not anymore. Now I'm envisioning a five year old in his Osh Gosh Bigosh overalls and beanie cap repeating the phrase, "but, why?" to every explanation he's given.

You are obviously speaking to a mirror.

Tsk Tsk.

[asskickergod]

Now the five year old is screaming, "I'm rubber, you're glue whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you!"

[flounder]

Originally posted by asskickergod
Now the five year old is screaming, "I'm rubber, you're glue whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you!"
How old are you.?
I do think you are funny though.

[asskickergod]

59, I'm retiring next year.

[Bostonmess]

Originally posted by maccabean
and in regards to yasser arafat as a terrorist

http://middleeastinfo.org/article2094.html

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/WorldNewsTonight/profile_arafat.html


What do you think to Sharon? (http://aztlan.net/theaccused.htm)

Sorry this sites a bit shabby but there's loads of it on the net about him, must be all those tin foil hatters, it does mention a BBC documentary though.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

I would never of thought that Scathing and I would ever agree on anything :P

Maccabean, Your perceived hatred of the Jewish people worldwide exists because Israel is hard-headed and always has to get its way. And as I said, it is reminiscent of the attitudes of most Jews that I know, they are uncompromising, greedy and always take offence to the slightest utterance of anything criticising Jews or Israel. And before you go ahead and call me a Nazi, keep in mind that I used to work at Bondi, the most Jewish suburb in Sydney, and I know how much of a pain in the arse they can be.

I know of only two news services worldwide that have the balls to criticise Israel's actions, the BBC, which Israel has now stated that it will not allow BBC journalists to interview Israeli political figures, and the Guardian. Every other news service that I am aware of is pro-Israel, or is sourced from a pro-Israeli news source.

Do you want Israel to be liked by the international community?? Here is what they should do:

1) Fuck off out of the West Bank and Gaza
2) Fuck its settlers off.
3) Give the Golan Heights back to Syria
4) Stop meddling in Lebanons affairs
5) Get rid of its WMD's - all of them.
6) Hold a summit with its neighbours, go in open-mindedly to discuss the cessation of all hostilities and the normalisation of all relations. Dont go in to dictate terms as Israel does, go in there to maturely discuss problems and solutions.
7) Work hard to prove that you want to be accepted by the international community, and not want to tell the world that Israel is better than the rest.
8) Stop labelling as anti-semetic anyone who criticises Israel or Jews. Im of Italian origin....I make more jokes of my heritage that my mates do, and when they do I dont care. Neither should Jews or anyone else for that matter.

I find it amazing that a country of 6 million people can own nuclear weapons, along with a military that is one of the most sophisticated in the world. I wonder how they fund it???

By the way, just for your information I find people who racially villify or abuse anyone to be scum. I find that there are sectors of the Lebanese community in Australia that act in a ridiculous manner and as far as im concerned they should be kicked out of this country. Leave your problems at home.

[kleph]

alright guys, this is the single warning for this thread. no more of the personal insults. i've edited out the direct attacks and sent notices to the folks involved. a lot more of the other stuff comes really close but, for the most part, the comments seem to reflect on the staments of the poster rather than the poster themself and i let them stand.

pirate and spingo have also been made aware of the comments made here.

i think we all aknowledge this is an issue that raises strong feelings among those who feel it is important to discuss. and ZGeek is a place to discuss it. but keep the discussion - particularly the criticisms - on the topics at hand and not on the people posting themselves.

if you do have a concern about another member's coments report the post, send a PM to a moderator and remember there is always the Super fucking open flaming thread (http://forums.zgeek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10381) (if, of course, that person has chosen to participate there).

[berserk]

I'd add to Biggleworth's list

1. be pragmatic & engage actively in the Palestinian economy.

I.e. it shouldn't close its borders to Palestinians. Instead allow & encourage business investment in the Palestinian state.

If Israel is worried about land shortage, it should move some production into the Palestinian state. Same land, just a diff taxman. (How do you think so many things be made in Singapore & HK? Its because most of the stuff is made in Indonesia/Malaysia & Southern China.)

Further, this will create jobs for Palestinians & give people a reason to live, instead of sitting around their bum being unemployed & bitter.

2. Work out a scheme to compensate families who have lost their property due to Israeli army activities, like demolishing houses.

If you don't give people a reason to hate you, maybe they won't.

[utopian]

So we're not allowed to flame people for their opinions in B&R anymore? You can hardly say that the flaming that has occured has been unwarranted or unprovoked. If this thread was meant to be all civil and sunshine, it would exist in Discussions.

I vote to move this thread and remove the posts that are off-topic, but please archive the flounder-AKG battle.

[imp]

Originally posted by utopian
So we're not allowed to flame people for their opinions in B&R anymore? You can hardly say that the flaming that has occured has been unwarranted or unprovoked. If this thread was meant to be all civil and sunshine, it would exist in Discussions.

I vote to move this thread and remove the posts that are off-topic, but please archive the flounder-AKG battle.

Bitch :D

[Scythe]

Originally posted by asskickergod
Did the image of two retarded kids mounted on electric wheel chairs jousting with plastic rakes just pop into anyone else's head?


Damn you.

It hadn't before, but now I can't get it out of my head. :)


I feel the need to turn this thread away from Israeli-bashing and Palestinian-bashing back to the original topic.

Does anyone remember the original topic? :)

Oh yes, those sad Neo-Nazis.

If Israel and Palestine are looking for something to help them to settle their differences, what they really need is a common enemy. There's nothing like a clear, identifiable threat to bring people together in a common cause, even if that cause is blowing the shit out of other people.

Why don't both sides get together and go to war on the Neo-Nazi movement? I'm sure if the situation were reversed, the average Nazi would not treat either the Palestinians or the Israeli's particularly well. Just a thought.

After all, if America can go to war on terrorism, why not go after the Nazis as well? Next will come the KKK, then that damn Communist movement, and we'll see where things go from there.

(Just in case you didn't notice, I was being sarcastic, so don't start abusing me. Frankly, you've all started to scare me a little, and i'm the one living in the neighbourhood with the guys writing the newsletters. :( )

[maccabean]

this is going to be my last post regarding this topic,

Do you want Israel to be liked by the international community?? Here is what they should do:

well here is a few things that the palestinians should do... and our little problem is solved

1. the PA should dismantle fundamentalist extremist terrorist organisations, like Hamas and islamic jihad and al aqsa martyrs. (prevent suicide bombing)

2. the PA should be willing to compromise with israel and not make hasty exits from meetings with israeli delegates if they don't get what they want. ....peace processes will always be a step-by-step strategy. (see ehud barak, yasser arafat..camp david)

3. Israel, i do not believe can negotiate with yasser arafat. Israelis find it hard to deal with a man who was once israel's worst enemy. The new prime minister of palestine is a prime candidate for negotiating peace in the future.

and lastly

4. Palestinians in general should accept israel right to exist. even now, school text books are little with hatred against the "zionist entity occupying all of palestine (which is from Metulla all the way down to Eilat)" palestinians are taught to hate israel from a very early age. though i admit that israelis should accept that palestinians are there to stay as well and should afford them more respect.

and regarding the golan heights....the golan as we know it today was taken after syria invaded israel and lost. before that, the syrians (from their position in the golan) constantly bombarded israel from its elevated level with rockets and gunfire.

in regards to tanks in arab villages...

yay look at the tanks... its looks good on tv! hey! and cnn loves to report with dramatic shots...also as mentioned before, its all about the ratings, and lets face it, there are more arabs than israelis that watch world news.
its occurs less often than you think and only during major operations. if you have ever been to israel, you will notice that towns and villages in general are built on hills and steep slopes unaccessible to tanks. also these villages are too crowded with obstacles for tanks to pass through....thus they are used when absolutley necessary.

one last thing, when in these major operations, israel is unlikely to put troops on the ground and expose them to sniper fire and/or general gunfire ...tanks provide ample shelter. i must admit though that it looks absolutly rediculous watching these palestinian kids throwing rocks at huge tanks. israel's PR representatives are the ones that need to be quartered and shot.

anyway, this being my last post, if anybody wants to discuss this further, without being abusive, please pm me, your very welcome to argue your points and i think i have still a lot to learn about the conflict.

edit: grammar

[berserk]

1. the PA should dismantle fundamentalist extremist terrorist organisations, like Hamas and islamic jihad and al aqsa martyrs. (prevent suicide bombing)

How do you know (apart from what the Israeli Govt claims) that the PLO even controls these organisations?

2. the PA should be willing to compromise with israel and not make hasty exits from meetings with israeli delegates if they don't get what they want. ....peace processes will always be a step-by-step strategy. (see ehud barak, yasser arafat..camp david)

3. Israel, i do not believe can negotiate with yasser arafat. Israelis find it hard to deal with a man who was once israel's worst enemy.

Whose being intransigent here?

4. Palestinians in general should accept israel right to exist. even now, school text books are little with hatred against the "zionist entity occupying all of palestine (which is from Metulla all the way down to Eilat)" palestinians are taught to hate israel from a very early age. though i admit that israelis should accept that palestinians are there to stay as well and should afford them more respect.

In recent years, Yasser Arafat has said repeatedly that the PLO doesn't have a problem with Palestine co-existing with Israel.
While the Palestinians are worried about the Israeli army blowing them up & arbitary arrest, you're worried about what goes into textbooks.

To this day, Japanese school kids still learn that the Pacific war was not entirely Japan's fault. That doesn't mean the rest of Asia is going to unduly fret about it

and regarding the golan heights....the golan as we know it today was taken after syria invaded israel and lost. before that, the syrians (from their position in the golan) constantly bombarded israel from its elevated level with rockets and gunfire.

Read Biggleworth's post about normalising relations with Israel's neighbours.

[scathing]

Originally posted by maccabean
4. Palestinians in general should accept israel right to exist.

I'd say the corollary is true too, which is why it'd help things if Israel got the fuck out of what the UN (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html) (link reposted from before) declared as Palestine (back when they also declared what land was Israel). I didn't see fucking Israel rolling over and accepting it when Syria invaded (or not whining about it ad nauseum afterwards).

In your words, its OK for Israel to maintain the violation of the sovereignty of another nation and decry the local populace from fighting against it, but not vice versa.

Looks like hypocrisy. Sounds like hypocrisy. Smells like bullshit. Hmm, wonder what it could be.....?

[Movius]

The real issue in most of these sorts of situations is that humans are inherently lazy and would much rather take the easy option of judging people by generalisations and stereotypes, rather than treat each person as a unique individual which is ultimately necessary to find out what a person is like.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by Movius
The real issue in most of these sorts of situations is that humans are inherently lazy and would much rather take the easy option of judging people by generalisations and stereotypes, rather than treat each person as a unique individual which is ultimately necessary to find out what a person is like.

Groups of people develop their own rituals and practices, and over time these are perceived to be what you would label a "stereotype". There is nothing wrong with a stereotype because each culture has its pros and cons.

A stereotype exists because there is some element of truth behind it, otherwise no-one would have ever have come up with it in the first place. Its true that not everyone in that particular culture fits into the stereotype, but a sizeable (or visible) number would cause that stereotype to exist.

The only problem with your theory is, how are you going to get the informed opinions of about 8 million people, and then how are you going to balance the requirements of said 8 million people. Its hard enough getting 2 people(or nations) to agree on something.

There are Jews who march with Palestinians to stop the atrocities of the IDF...by the same token there are Palestinians who are considered to be traitors by their own for their close ties with Israel.

[asskickergod]

Who would have thought that the solutions to a conflict that's hundreds of years old can be resolved with a few numbered lists. You would have thought that the numbered list idea would have dawned on someone by now, but I guess the great thinkers of this forum have discovered the ultimate solution. Kudos, guys. Kudos.

However, I think I may have come up with an even easier solution. A one step catch all solution, that won't even involve one side completely caving in to the others demands or having an entire nation simply change their collective minds about the other party. Not only will my proposed remedy fix the problems between Israel and Palestine it will go so far as to solve all the problems in the entire Middle East. All that we'll need is about 1,000,000 pulleys a few billion feet of high tensile strength cable and a gigantic laser cannon that's powered directly by the core of the sun.

We can use the sun powered laser to carve open the Earth's crust down to the mantle to free the Middle East from the rest of the continental shelf. Then utilizing the cable and pulleys we lift the now freed land mass a few hundred miles into the air, turn the son of a bitch over and put it right back where it was. Wham bam thank you mam, all the problems suddenly cease to be. Not only does my plan require fewer steps to come into fruition but I also feel that it's more feasible.

[Bostonmess]

Why not just move 'em to Iraq, and move the Iraqis into Israel?

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by asskickergod
Who would have thought that the solutions to a conflict that's hundreds of years old can be resolved with a few numbered lists. You would have thought that the numbered list idea would have dawned on someone by now, but I guess the great thinkers of this forum have discovered the ultimate solution. Kudos, guys. Kudos.


Its called changing the national mentality.Israel, like the United States and China, consider themselves to be Gods Chosen people, and as such their will is regarded as one to be divinely protected.

However, you would find that if Israel did start to act more pragmatically (like Rabin did), like Beserk and I have argued, it would earn alot of respect and you can bet that within 10 years "anti-semitism" would probably cease to exist, as well as the suicide bombings that plague the area today.

[utopian]

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
However, you would find that if Israel did start to act more pragmatically (like Rabin did)
Yes, that ended well. I think assassination of Israeli leaders would continue until they found someone who was AOK with all this conflict stuff. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for peace in the middle east and the Palestinians having somewhere to live that isn't being invaded/bombed/shot at by Israel.

From what I remember (seven years ago), Rabin was a guy who wanted peace genuinely. I was only about 12 at the time, but the ABC's "Behind the News" had me convinced that this guy was about stopping the fighting and living together peacefully.

Unfortunately, someone disagreed with Rabin and gave him a bullet as an early Chanukah present.

[maccabean]

several children die in suicide attack (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/19/international/middleeast/19CND-ISRAEL.html?ex=1061956800&en=a420128eeee07c8f&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

when you've been presecuted for 2000 years, and then you finally get a little slice of land somewhere in the desert, you get a little protective over it, you know what i mean?

However, you would find that if Israel did start to act more pragmatically (like Rabin did), like Beserk and I have argued, it would earn alot of respect and you can bet that within 10 years "anti-semitism" would probably cease to exist, as well as the suicide bombings that plague the area today.

.....i love the line....within 10 years anti semetism would probably cease to exist....its been around even before israel was even thought of....and of course you can eliminate the world's oldest hatred in 10 years....its so simple!

and i also love the line .... as well as the suicide bombinds that plague the are.....i bet not 10 minutes after he wrote that sentence, the bomb went off in israel. THANKS FOR THE JINX!!
(aren't israelis currently involved in a truce and peace talks or something??....great to see the PA are keeping their word...note hamas did not take responsibility for the attack, nice to know they are keeping their side of the deal)

[Bostonmess]

Yes there has been some kids killed on a bus, all in all there was about nineteen dead? Yes it's a tragedy, yes the Israelis will want revenge and unfortunately, yes they will get it. They will launch their state of the art killing machines that will go out and blow up a load of Palestinians and then the Palestinians will be the ones seeking the revenge. Like some sick fucking game they will retaliate back causing, in turn, the Israelis to mourn their dead and seek yet more revenge, each side justifying themselves by believing they are in the right. They are both in the wrong. To sane rational people this is an obvious fact, to people bent by murderous conflicts for years, they struggle to understand.

If they knew that their retaliations were going to cause the revenge killing of their own brothers/sisters/children would they still carry on? Evidently so?

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Both races are fucked in the head...I turned off the news tonight at the sight of children being blown up.

This world is fucking tragic....someone, somewhere is watching this planet with a tear in their eye.

[scathing]

Just something I noticed in the paper today:

Originally Posted on the SMH (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/19/1061261154003.html)
Investigators have hinted that Mr Pas and five others, including three arrested last week, are members of a Jewish underground group who carry out attacks on Palestinians.

In the last two years, at least seven Palestinians have been killed and 19 wounded in unsolved shootings attributed to Israeli civilians in the West Bank, an Israeli security official said. The main source of concern was radical Jewish settlers who present a "very serious situation for the democracy of Israel", the official said.

There is concern about the growing number of terrorist attacks by right-wing Israelis opposed to the already faltering peace plan.

(Yes, I realise that since the web site's domain name doesn't contain any Jewish words like "Masada" that its possibly biased and not impartial like any Jewish-domain-named web site must be, but I thought I'd give them the benefit of the doubt)

No Jew has "that kind" of mentality, huh? All Jews are only interested in peace, huh? The problem with stupidly-optimistic generalisations is that, more often than not, someone is going to make you look like a complete ass.

Both sides have fringe groups, not under complete control of their respective "authorities", that will always do something stupid to damage any peace process. One side, in this situation, doesn't pretend that these dissatisfied people don't exist. The other side just likes to pretend their shit doesn't smell.

[asskickergod]

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Its called changing the national mentality.Israel,
You can call it whatever you like, you're still asking a one population to just change their minds about the other. That kind of shift happens because of change, not to cause it.


Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
like the United States and China, consider themselves to be Gods Chosen people, and as such their will is regarded as one to be divinely protected.
Having lived in the United States for all my life I tend to meet a lot of Americans and I have never heard anyone refer to the US population as "Gods Chosen" outside of the Southern Baptist, Jerry Falwel hoard. Let me assure you that Jerry Falwel does not speak for our nation.

Obviously since I'm not Chinese I can't speak for them in the same regard, however since the majority of Chinese people don't follow a religion that acknowledges the same Christian god I think you've made an unfounded assumption there as well.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by asskickergod
Having lived in the United States for all my life I tend to meet a lot of Americans and I have never heard anyone refer to the US population as "Gods Chosen" outside of the Southern Baptist, Jerry Falwel hoard. Let me assure you that Jerry Falwel does not speak for our nation.


Then youve never heard of "manifest destiny".

Heres (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/refarticle.aspx?refid=761568247) what im talking about. It was official US foreign policy for many years, and in some ways still is.

Heres (http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/archive/scoop/stories/cc/85/200210071737.4e0cf342.html) a slightly biased article on modern day practices resembling Manifest Destiny.

[asskickergod]

Oh yes, here comes the Americans invading Iraq under the sole banner of Manifest Destiny. They've come to collect more slaves to work the cotton fields.

While you were sleeping the 21st century happened, welcome.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by asskickergod
Oh yes, here comes the Americans invading Iraq under the sole banner of Manifest Destiny. They've come to collect more slaves to work the cotton fields.


The ambition behind it is the same, just the reason is different this time.

Manifest destiny led to the annexation of Hawaii, Cuba, several wars with Mexico and later, the prime tenets of Manifest Destiny were used in the 50s to the 90's to combat communism.

Today, the "War on Terrorism" reeks of Manifest Destiny. And most of you ignorant Americans still have no clue whats happening, because your more interested in the fuckheads on American Idol or Big Brother or some other stupid shithouse show than on what your Fascist government is doing, and then you ask "Why does the world hate us?"

Geez...I wonder why.

[asskickergod]

Manifest Destiny was never used as a reason for going to war. No one ever took something from someone else because they thought god liked them better, they took it because they wanted it. Manifest Destiny was a just the justification.

Land was taken from the Indians because it was wanted for colonization by white settlers and the Indians happened to be in the way. Manifest Destiny was an excuse to make it all right in the eyes of god and their fellow countrymen. No one is using that excuse now, nor has it been used the last hundred odd years, which is why you are wrong and your last few posts are embarrassing to read.

I would also like to add that I have never watched "American Idol" or "Big Brother", so next time you try to pigeon hole me into one of your gross generalizations at least make sure I fit into it.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Manifest Destiny was never used as a reason for going to war. No one ever took something from someone else because they thought god liked them better, they took it because they wanted it. Manifest Destiny was a just the justification.


Explain the difference between "reason" and "justification" in this context. Manifest Destiny (an OFFICIAL policy for many years, and an unofficial one to this day) was ingrained with the belief that the great American republic was an example worthy to be followed by other nations, and that it was a duty ordained by God that America should burden. Other states referred to it as "colonialism".

Land was taken from the Indians because it was wanted for colonization by white settlers and the Indians happened to be in the way. Manifest Destiny was an excuse to make it all right in the eyes of god and their fellow countrymen. No one is using that excuse now, nor has it been used the last hundred odd years, which is why you are wrong and your last few posts are embarrassing to read.


"Land was taken from the Iraqis because it was wanted for oil by white settlers and the Iraqis happened to be in the way"

Who said "You are either with us or against us". Who referred to Iran, Iraq and North Korea as the "axis of evil". Who constantly referred to giving the Iraqi and Afhgan people their liberties and democracy, when only a small minority actually wanted that change? Whos feeling embarrassed now?

I would also like to add that I have never watched "American Idol" or "Big Brother", so next time you try to pigeon hole me into one of your gross generalizations at least make sure I fit into it.

I never said you did, however most of your brethren do, they aimlessly watch someone elses life on television, they waste their lives cherishing a piece of cloth in blindless patriotism, while they want to be accepted by the rest of the world as good people, yet are led by a redneck nutcase who is making more and more enemies for your country as every day is passing.

Instead of posting crap to try to discredit me, go out into the street and try to convince your people that there are 280-odd other countries in the world, each with different beliefs, customs and thoughts, not just the United States of America.

[nosedog]

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
your more interested in the fuckheads on American Idol or Big Brother or some other stupid shithouse show than on what your Fascist government is doing

Yeah asskickergod, Australians care more about their government policy than watching crap tv.

Sunday's 90-minute finale of "The Block" ... drew an average national audience of 3,079,591 ..... the other 18,063,985 people were watching "Parliament Question Time"

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by nosedog
Yeah asskickergod, Australians care more about their government policy than watching crap tv.

Sunday's 90-minute finale of "The Block" ... drew an average national audience of 3,079,591 – about 53 per cent of all people watching TV at the time ..... the other 18,063,985 people were watching "Question Time"

At least most of us know our place in the world, that being of a small nation, and we dont seek world domination and colonisation of our neighbours.

And before you grill me on the South Pacific, Australia has never acted unilaterally, or without UN permission. It actually pays attention to the UN, not like the US that wipes its arse with it and uses it only when it needs to veto the next resolution condemning Israel.

[nosedog]

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
world domination and colonisation of our neighbours.

Fuck, if I was an Iraqi living under some raping, torturing, pillaging shitbag, whose administration was corrupt and inefficient, who held his power by jailing or killing political opponents, who fucked the economy by incuring massive trade sanctions, I would WANT to be colonised by the US.

With all the US-bashing around here, not many people stop to think that Iraq will be a thousand times better off now that Saddam is fucked off.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by nosedog
Fuck, if I was an Iraqi living under some raping, torturing, pillaging shitbag, whose administration was corrupt and inefficient, who held his power by jailing or killing political opponents, who fucked the economy by incuring massive trade sanctions, I would WANT to be colonised by the US.

With all the US-bashing around here, not many people stop to think that Iraq will be a thousand times better off now that Saddam is fucked off.

Even if its against the will of the Iraqi people?

Very often I hear "We dont want Saddam...we dont want America." Is someone missing the point here?

Not everyone in the world wants your way of life.

[nosedog]

Fuck your "will of the people", Biggles. Saddam was an inhumane murdering nutcase who deserved to be removed from power. Iraqis will be better off without him. You can't possibly argue otherwise.





Also, since this is not the Discussion forum, but Bitching and Rants, which has more relaxed rules on thread etiquette , allow me the liberty of childishly jibing you with a Trephination.net (http://www.trephination.net/) image:

: : EDIT : : image removed. ixnay on the personal stuff

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Originally posted by nosedog
Fuck your "will of the people", Biggles. Saddam was an inhumane murdering nutcase who deserved to be removed from power. Iraqis will be better off without him. You can't possibly argue otherwise.


Who says Iraq is better off without him, you?

Why did the UN insist till the last minute that Iraq not be attacked?

Why did America switch its argument of WMDs to the plight of the Iraqi people once it was established Iraq had no WMDS?

Why does America not liberate the oppressed people of Palestine if it care so much about peoples suffering?

Do you think America actually cares about the Iraqi People?

If America cares so much, why arent they in Congo stopping the 3 million killed in the past 5 years and the hands of cannibals and barbarians?

Why did it take America 3 months to send peacekeepers to Liberia, once again another atrocity that would have been prevented with American intervention?

Remember when they draped the American flag over the eyes of the Saddam statue....how metaphorical was that. You Americans are so ignorant of world affairs, the only time you notice is when you get slapped in the face.

[nosedog]

Who says Iraq is better off without him, you?


Maybe you're right. Maybe Iraq is better off under the rule of a homocidal, undemocratic, fucktard murdering tyrant, who has attracted international sanctions which arse-fucked his country down to subsistence level, with a GDP ten times less than Australia's.

Do you think America actually cares about the Iraqi People?

Who cares. I'm simply trying to point out that Iraq will be better off thanks to good old George W, no matter what his reason for invading.

You Americans

I'm Bolivian, mate.

klephy: image removed. ixnay on the personal stuff

Hey kleph:
http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/4276340787.jpg

[Mr Bigglesworth]

whatever you reckon...

[nosedog]

Ok. So we have sex now? :)

[asskickergod]

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Explain the difference between "reason" and "justification" in this context. Manifest Destiny (an OFFICIAL policy for many years, and an unofficial one to this day) was ingrained with the belief that the great American republic was an example worthy to be followed by other nations, and that it was a duty ordained by God that America should burden. Other states referred to it as "colonialism".

I believe I already explained the context, twice. But, so it might sink in a little easier I'll use you in another example. Now for this hypothetical example lets assume you are a deranged and schizophrenic individual that hears voices. This may or may not be a stretch of the imagination, but for this exercise we'll make this assumption.

Being a nutcase you often hear voices and one day the voices in your head tell you that you have the right to take anything you want. Later that day you go out crawling the streets and find a small child eating an ice cream cone. You like ice cream and snatch the cone away from the bawling child. Since the voices in your head told you that it's all right to steal you don't feel that you've done anything wrong.

Now as you walk further down the street you spot a dog eating it's own crap. Now as far as you're concerned it would be perfectly acceptable for you to kick that dog over and gobble up his meal. However, since you don't want to eat dog crap you pass the dog by.

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
"Land was taken from the Iraqis because it was wanted for oil by white settlers and the Iraqis happened to be in the way"

Way to beat the dead horse, "No blood for oil" is the zombie death cry of the ignorant. If you can't see the many thousands of logical reasons for the Iraqi invasion then I can't help you. I could write tombs of information on the points and counterpoints for the war. However, it can really be summed up with one thought. The war was based on the idea that the world would be a safer place with Saddam Heusain no longer in power. That is a reason that needs no justification. Whether or not the statement holds true is a matter for history to decide, not you.

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Who said "You are either with us or against us". Who referred to Iran, Iraq and North Korea as the "axis of evil". Who constantly referred to giving the Iraqi and Afhgan people their liberties and democracy, when only a small minority actually wanted that change? Whos feeling embarrassed now?

Before you start telling me what Iraqis think about the invasion it would help if you actually knew what Iraqis think about the invasion.

http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/07/week_3/images/iraq_survey.html

Do you think that America and Britain s war against Saddam's regime was right?
Right 50
Wrong 27
No opinion/not stated 23


Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
I never said you did, however most of your brethren do, they aimlessly watch someone elses life on television, they waste their lives cherishing a piece of cloth in blindless patriotism, while they want to be accepted by the rest of the world as good people, yet are led by a redneck nutcase who is making more and more enemies for your country as every day is passing.

For lack of statistical data I went around my office and surveyed some of my coworkers. They're a fairly diverse set of people so I think it's a good base for my study. Out of 20 people, only 3 admitted to watching said shows. Now, in case you're not adept at math allow me to inform you that 3 out of 20 is not a majority.


Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Instead of posting crap to try to discredit me, go out into the street and try to convince your people that there are 280-odd other countries in the world, each with different beliefs, customs and thoughts, not just the United States of America.

I don't have to discredit you. You do a great job of it yourself by consistently not knowing what you're talking about. Instead of posting crap try actually educating yourself on the topic first and then try using your brain to make an informed opinion instead of just making shit up as you go along.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

I believe I already explained the context, twice. But, so it might sink in a little easier I'll use you in another example. Now for this hypothetical example lets assume you are a deranged and schizophrenic individual that hears voices. This may or may not be a stretch of the imagination, but for this exercise we'll make this assumption.

Being a nutcase you often hear voices and one day the voices in your head tell you that you have the right to take anything you want. Later that day you go out crawling the streets and find a small child eating an ice cream cone. You like ice cream and snatch the cone away from the bawling child. Since the voices in your head told you that it's all right to steal you don't feel that you've done anything wrong.

Now as you walk further down the street you spot a dog eating it's own crap. Now as far as you're concerned it would be perfectly acceptable for you to kick that dog over and gobble up his meal. However, since you don't want to eat dog crap you pass the dog by.


Im sorry I dont speak American.
I only speak English, Italian and French.

Way to beat the dead horse, "No blood for oil" is the zombie death cry of the ignorant. If you can't see the many thousands of logical reasons for the Iraqi invasion then I can't help you. I could write tombs of information on the points and counterpoints for the war. However, it can really be summed up with one thought. The war was based on the idea that the world would be a safer place with Saddam Heusain no longer in power. That is a reason that needs no justification. Whether or not the statement holds true is a matter for history to decide, not you.


Geez.....I was so scard while Saddam was alive. I was scared his phantom nukes with all his gas would kill me and everyone I know. I built a nuclear shelter and 800 years of supplies in case he attacked.........

Its true what they say, that Americans are the dumbest fucking nation on the planet. Not only do you believe anything you hear from your government, but then you stupidly defend them.

Ive got some news for you - YOUR GOVERNMENT LIED TO YOU ABOUT THE IRAQI THREAT. YOUR GOVERNMENT HAD AN AGENDA THAT INVOLVED THE CAPTURE OF IRAQ FOR ITS OWN GAIN. THE SOONER YOU REALISE THAT THE SOONER YOU STOP LOOKING LIKE A MORON.


Before you start telling me what Iraqis think about the invasion it would help if you actually knew what Iraqis think about the invasion.


I know exactly what the Iraqis think about the invasion. If they wanted to welcome you with such open arms why are you still attacked today.

The Iraqi people wanted freedom from Saddam, not another yoke on their neck. They were under British colonial rule and are now under American colonial rule.

If you want your country to help the world...I can think of no less than 15 hotspots that it can send peacekeepers to. Dont preach to me about what people want.


For lack of statistical data I went around my office and surveyed some of my coworkers. They're a fairly diverse set of people so I think it's a good base for my study. Out of 20 people, only 3 admitted to watching said shows. Now, in case you're not adept at math allow me to inform you that 3 out of 20 is not a majority.


Im sure the official ratings are less accurate than your "poll"


I don't have to discredit you. You do a great job of it yourself by consistently not knowing what you're talking about. Instead of posting crap try actually educating yourself on the topic first and then try using your brain to make an informed opinion instead of just making shit up as you go along.

No im not making shit up....I, like alot of people who share my beliefs, just happen to see things from a global perspective, whereas you look at them from the angle of a poor United States of America....."why would anyone attack us, they must be evil". No my dear, it is your pathetic little country that is evil, and going the way you are it wont be long before the rest of the world will have enough of your arrogant pig-headed attitudes and will nuke you off the face of this earth.

[Bostonmess]

Originally posted by asskickergod
The war was based on the idea that the world would be a safer place with Saddam Heusain no longer in power. That is a reason that needs no justification. Whether or not the statement holds true is a matter for history to decide, not you.


Were Neo-Conservatives’ 1998 Memos a Blueprint for Iraq War? (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html)

[asskickergod]

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Im sorry I dont speak American.
I only speak English, Italian and French.

Ah, a variant strain of the "too long didn't read" cop out argument where you try an impress me with the different languages you speak. I'm not going to provide you with any further examples of what reason and justification are, I'm sure I've made it clear to everyone else but you and that's as far as my patience extends.

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Geez.....I was so scard while Saddam was alive. I was scared his phantom nukes with all his gas would kill me and everyone I know. I built a nuclear shelter and 800 years of supplies in case he attacked.........

Notice in my post how I used the phrase "the world would be a safer place". In no place did I say "you would be safer". Obviously you got these concepts confused. Just because you think the world revolves around you doesn't make you the same entity.

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Its true what they say, that Americans are the dumbest fucking nation on the planet. Not only do you believe anything you hear from your government, but then you stupidly defend them.

I fear your racism will never allow you to see things the way they are. In a way I pity you, cruising through life with your head lights off and eyes closed shut. It must be a sad and lonely existence, judging peoples intelligence based on their country of origin only to be proven wrong now. How horrible for you, all your beliefs dashed upon the rocks. We should all now shed a single tear for Mr. Bigglesworth, a boy not clever enough to think of his own moniker and had to steal one from a "stupid" American movie.

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Ive got some news for you - YOUR GOVERNMENT LIED TO YOU ABOUT THE IRAQI THREAT. YOUR GOVERNMENT HAD AN AGENDA THAT INVOLVED THE CAPTURE OF IRAQ FOR ITS OWN GAIN. THE SOONER YOU REALISE THAT THE SOONER YOU STOP LOOKING LIKE A MORON.

It's of course as simple as all that. The government lied, our singular one minded government entity that functions as a whole. Our government contains no individuals, it is a singular all knowing mass. No intelligence failures occur and misinterpretations never arise in this governmental creature. When it lies, it must do it as a whole for their are no moving parts. It is one collective mind.

I believe you're thinking of the Borg.

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
I know exactly what the Iraqis think about the invasion. If they wanted to welcome you with such open arms why are you still attacked today.

I already proved you wrong, why are you insisting that you know the Iraqi mind. Some of the Iraqis did in fact welcome the invasion with open arms. Your erratic attempts to refute empirical data aren't going to confuse me. He's another excerpt from that survey.

What kind of political/governmental system would you like to see in Iraq?
British/American style democracy. With various political parties competing openly for power 36
Islamic rule, but tempered to modern ideals of justice and punishment 26
A single presidential ruler, but not Saddam 7
Islamic rule in strict accord with the Koran (with Mullahs in charge) 6
A single party state, with open elections for political post 6
Return of Saddam Hussein 5
Other 6
Don t know/not stated 12


Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
Im sure the official ratings are less accurate than your "poll"

If you can find them please do, I'd be interested to see the American Idol watching public vs. the rest of the population. I'm sure it will just serve to further bolster my claim.

Originally posted by Mr Bigglesworth
No im not making shit up....I, like alot of people who share my beliefs, just happen to see things from a global perspective, whereas you look at them from the angle of a poor United States of America....."why would anyone attack us, they must be evil". No my dear, it is your pathetic little country that is evil, and going the way you are it wont be long before the rest of the world will have enough of your arrogant pig-headed attitudes and will nuke you off the face of this earth.

You are in no way looking at it from a global perspective. Hell, in the third sentence you said America was evil. That's not a global view, it's a bias one. You are a bias person and your posts reek of it.

[asskickergod]

Originally posted by Bostonmess
Were Neo-Conservatives’ 1998 Memos a Blueprint for Iraq War? (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/DailyNews/pnac_030310.html)

Notice how the word "oil" doesn't appear once in the article? Thanks Bostonmess this suits my argument nicely.

[Bostonmess]

Iraq = Oil?

[Bostonmess]

Originally posted by Bostonmess
Iraq = Oil?

Iraq = country in the Middle East ;)

[asskickergod]

Originally posted by Bostonmess
Iraq = Oil?
Iraq = country in the Middle East

Of course by that logic all countries in the Middle East = Oil.

[Bostonmess]

Sorry, I was just trying to be predictive :)

I expected you to type something along the lines of "No. Iraq = country in the Middle East."

Anyway, forget that.

Before the war if Saddam was gonna sell his oil, if the sanctions were lifted, which, judging by the lack of WMD, would have been (or would of been if you're an Aussie :)), IMO, a distinct possibility.

Would he have sold to the West? In particular the States?

Where would he have sold to? China? Russia? Syria? I don't know, here and there, but maybe not the States.

Now however, inbetween pipeline explosions, that oil is available to the West?

[asskickergod]

I believe Exxon bought oil from Iraq, but I heard the majority of US oil comes from Venezuela, Canada and Alaska. It was said on this forum before, however I don't recall from whom.

[Bostonmess]

I wonder if just getting it on the Western market would affect other oil suppliers to Westerners? I don't know, I mean, you hear so much shit these days, "They don't want it on the market, 'cos the proices will go down, and they want to keep the prices up." "They want it on the market 'cos it'll bring the prices down." Who the fuck knows? Differing conspiracy theories.

"They invaded Iraq to rid it of a mad dictator that was in charge"

Have we ever helped instate a mad dictator?

If we are so into removing mad dictators, why don't we do it more often?

I always had the impression that Saddam was becoming a good boy, much more so than what he was, then: WALLOP! Take that ya crazy bastard. Bush doesn't fuck around. A couple of minor indiscretions? (according to Blix?) and he was out.

Saddam was an evil tyrant but something just doesn't add up. I watched the news about the kids with the mental illnesses running out of food in their hospitals. These hospitals were in fantastic nick, probably better than my own country. Why would an evil madman keep such good care of kids with mental problems? of course the joker in us thinks: "he was saving up for a side show" or: "He was gonna build an army of cybernetic soldiers" etc.

Saddam was an asshole, he was an evil dictator, it was his way or the highway, you were either with him or against him.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

: : EDIT: : post deleted for violating site rules

[utopian]

: :EDIT: : Post deleted for violating site rules

[kré]

: : EDIT : : Post deleted for violating site rules

[kleph]

alright, that's it. i'm shutting this thread down.

why? three reasons and they are all from the rules of zgeek we all agreed to when we registered...


Express courtesy to others - Just because they disagree with you, does not make them a prong. Count to ten before you reply!
yes this is bitching and rants but the tone of the posts is undeniably excessive and a clear warning had been posted.

Making inflammatory remarks to purely generate or provoke others is forbidden. Replying to such remarks is idiocy.
ditto.

Post in the appropriate forum. If you do not post in the appropriate forum, don't be surprised if it gets moved or deleted.
this thread was about a newsletter published by the Australian branch of the National Socialists. the conversation now has nothing to do with that.



if any of you would like to continue discussing the israeli/palestinian issue feel free to start a thread in the Discussions (http://forums.zgeek.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=9) forum.

if any of you would like to continue discussing america's involvement in iraq feel free to start a thread in The War (http://forums.zgeek.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=67) forum.

if any of you just want to flame the bejesus out of each other feel free to participate in Super fucking open flaming thread (http://forums.zgeek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10381).

any problems with this? e-mail Pirate (pirate@zgeek.com) or Spingo (spingo@zgeek.com).