Insanity...

[Naiad]

Ok fuckit - want to comment on things and am currently drunk, so won't comment yet, but need to ask people what they think so that I can comment tomorrow when I am not drunk...

Are insane people able to be incorporated into society Or are they better off in jail OR is there a better solution???

What is insane??? Who is to decide???

I will not yet write down my views because I am drunk and my girlfriend hates me because I am too extreme and a bastard for being so!!

Of course actually being me (as opposed to my girlfriend) right now (and being utterly fucking spastic drunk) I have to say that whatever I said about the subject tonight (to her) was obviosuly right regardless of how fucking stupid it was!!!!

OK - Let's all comment dammit!!!! :

[Spingo]

I'm insane! Seriously..

Well, I'm suspected of having a psychosis of some kind.

Though I think that insane people have a toighter grip on reality than most people do...

[Nandragon]

My ex used to yell at me constantly that i was an insane bitch.

I much like being called by u guys an oversex old hag. (not those exact words...but ....)

I've seen insane up close and personal. Believe me they don't need to be on the playground with your children.

Or in ur bed!:eek:

[Bostonmess]

Everyone's insane to a degree? It's just that when others don't understand your insanity that you become and outcast. Insane people are ok so long as they aren't violently insane. Of course then you've got the question of how do you know whether they are violent or not. Well you wait for them to commit violent acts.

I've known a couple of schizophrenics, both of them were harmless, no I didn't meet them in an asylum. It's a funny thing, maybe it's all to do with our perceptions. We are all unique, we all perceive things differently, people have different favourite colours etc.

One of my mates, Dis, he would sometimes say shit like: "Were you just uptown? But without a beard?" And I'd say shit back like: "Yeah Dis, this a false one, I've just put it on." The number of doppelgangers he saw of people was amazing. He was a truly funny guy, he was a fascist as well.

Actually, he once told me a story, he did some time in the local loony bin. He was asleep on a bench and some kids had been hassling him, so he'd gone to sleep with a screw driver in his hand. Unfortunately, a copper woke him up and he got it straight in the ribs. He didn't mean to, it was just a reaction, so he said. Not sure whether it was a true story or not.

So long as people don't harm others they should be free. And that's really all it boils down to IMO.

[Tyfus]

One of my mates is a slightly paranoid psychotic. He used to do and say all kinds of weird shit, but he never came across as an agressive guy (even though he's 1.90m and very muscular) untill that one fateful day...

We were camping on the beach of the Atlantic Ocean in the south of Spain, after travelling around for six weeks, and he tried to take advantage of a very drunk friend of mine. When we tried to talk some sense into him he exploded, and hit me in my face a few times. Next morning he's all sorry and says it'll never happen again (while at the same time blaming me of starting the fight because I was jealous of him...)
That night he did exactly the same thing, except that we were in a van, and he pushed me out of it. He smashed the door repetetively on my leg, which was still inside.

Later I found out he hadn't been taking his medication for over two weeks, but needless to say, he's not my mate anymore.
The stupid thing is that i'd known this guy for 4 years, and i'd never expected anything like this to happen.

[Nandragon]

Alright, since we're telling insane stories

Missy #1, was always flaky, but on her 25th birthday she heard her first voice. it went slowly downhill from there. She lost it one day (with me, yes I was there) in the mall. She went that night to the asylum. Sad, very sad in detail.

Missy #2: was 18 when I first met her. A guy I knew was "dating" her. She heard voices, her voices unlike Missy#1, told her to do things for personal gain. She would talk to her voices like they were ppl in the room. Sweet kid. Called her mom several times to come get her. Her mom would tell me she hadn't been able to find her for days. Missy would run off with whomever.

Gene: sometimes I could like her others not. After she disappeared for several weeks, her sister told me she was institutionalized. She was diagnosed with multiple personalities. Ages ranged from 8 to 40. She was 32. Male and female. I found out later the reason I didn't like her sometimes is the personality "Delores" didn't like me.:p

I could write a multi page confession on my ex. RAGE says it all.

[Poisonivy]

Originally posted by Bostonmess
Everyone's insane to a degree? It's just that when others don't understand your insanity that you become and outcast. Insane people are ok so long as they aren't violently insane. Of course then you've got the question of how do you know whether they are violent or not. Well you wait for them to commit violent acts.



Couldn't of put it better myself.

~ Poisonivy ~

[mrwest]

Well put Bostonmess :)

We all have our own individual headspace, no two are alike. There is an average headspace, a kind of common ground that people use to relate to each other. When a persons headspace is *very* different from the average, they generally get labelled 'insane'. I think true insanity is when your perception of reality becomes permanently distorted and you lose touch with that 'common ground' headspace. That's when people do really fucked up things.

A bit of deviation from the norm is a good thing, but it's not insanity, it's unsanity :)

From the Hallucinogen track 'Demention':

"... there is an area of the mind that could be called unsane, beyond sanity, and yet not insane. Think of a circle with a fine split in it. At one end there's insanity. You go around the circle to sanity, and on the other end of the circle, close to insanity, but not insanity, is unsanity."

[Sambellina]

People who have mental illnesses aren't "insane" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a years. They can be completely "normal" - they can hold down a job, form and maintain relationships and no-one would know. It's when their illness surfaces that they become hurtful (pysically and mentally) and it's then that a decision has to be made about whether or not they can function in society. Usually it's up to the "higher powers" to decide whether or not they should be institutionalised and as Boston said it's usually when they become voilent. But what about the unseen voilence like child abuse? Or they may not be voilent but the hurt they can cause to their loves ones mentally is something that often goes unseen.

The most obvious, but probably hardest, thing for a mentally ill person to do is get help. Mental illness can be accepted and you can function "normally" but you can't do it alone. If your loved ones are telling you you need help and/or shutting you out because they can't deal with you anymore then I can't understand why the fuck you just wouldn't go and get the help you need. Mental illness can ruin a lot more then just the mentally ill person.

Boston is right when he says we are all insane to a degree but it's whether we can keep our "episodes" in check or not that makes us human or loopy loop loops of fruit.

The interesting thing I've found with mentally ill people in my life is that they are always the ones to call others mad, insane, crazy, loopy - when all along they're just covering up their own fear of being the most loopy of them all.

[mosty]

Ok, long time lurker but i felt obliged to enter in on this one.

I AM Schitzophrenic. Have been for sometime now. I have BEEN insane and back and am hopefully back for good now. Its not an easy journey and insane people fight with it every day of their lives. I agree with what boston says that every one is slightly insane but I wouldn't use the word insane in that way. Every body has their own perspective of the world and their own reality that they live in. The trouble with insanity is that by being insane you've crossed an imaginery line where YOUR reality is so removed from the physical reality that exists. Everybody has different realities but not everyone is insane.

Back to the point, while insane people are dangerous and unpredictable. They shouldn't be institutionalised if CARE can be provided at home, fortunately for me I have good friends and family that cared for me. Thx mrwest ;). On the are they dangerous front, it depends purely on the personality of the person. Your core ethics wont change, you either would kill some one or you wouldn't, but the thing to remember is that an insane person is living in a reality of EXTREMES. How far would YOU go if pushed to the absolute limit.

Lastly the medication saved my life. Drugs help balance the imalance of chemicals in the brain that cause the psychosis and allow insane people to journey back to reality, even if they never fully get there. Sorry for the length but I could dribble for hours on this subject, hope i helped Bifrost ;)
:)

[Cassa]

Originally posted by Sambellina
People who have mental illnesses aren't "insane" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a years. They can be completely "normal" - they can hold down a job, form and maintain relationships and no-one would know.

That is one of the many things that makes it so hard to get help. Most people on the street think of mental illness like classic severe schizophrenia - hearing voices, extreme mood swings and erratic behaviour etc. The fact is most mood/personality disorders aren't like that. If you can get through your day acting 'normal' when you're flipping out inside, then people are only going to think you're having them on when you say you need help. Bipolar disorder and its ilk are especially bad for this...sufferers can go up to 10 years or longer with symptoms before they'll get help, because the majority of their emotional life is fairly normal, day to day between the manic and depressive periods.

[Tyfus]

because the majority of their emotional life is fairly normal, day to day between the manic and depressive periods.

That's me. 'Normal' most of the time, but once in a while I'm in moodswing-heaven.

[Nandragon]

Most, when did your episode first start?
I ask because the females that I knew, and from what I gathered from their loved ones is that the phycosis doesn't really kick in till your 20's.

Sam, I do NOT think that (correct me if I've assumed wrongly) a child ABUSER does NOT suffer from mental illness. Child abuse 9 times out of 10 is a LEARNED behavior. Abuser's have been abused. Like men hitting their wives. It's a learned behavior, that CAN be UN-learned.

[Scythe]

Originally posted by Nandragon
Sam, I do NOT think that (correct me if I've assumed wrongly) a child ABUSER does NOT suffer from mental illness. Child abuse 9 times out of 10 is a LEARNED behavior. Abuser's have been abused. Like men hitting their wives. It's a learned behavior, that CAN be UN-learned.


The problem is that many people confuse child abuse with paedophilia, which is also sometimes a learned behaviour, but not always.

Speaking as someone who has undergone counselling for a fairly minor, if socially debilitating, mental illness (which shall, for the time being, remain nameless :) ) , i can say that insanity is something that's nearly impossible to judge accurately. I know in certain situations, my own behavious would be considered at least mildly nuts by people who think of themselves as 'well-adjusted' (but anybody who consciously thinks of themselves as well-adjusted probably isn't). The thing is, to me and those who know me, they're perfectly normal.

Some behaviours that seem insane to the casual observer become much less so once their internal logic is understood. I imagine if you came from a place that doesn't practice it and has never heard of it, male circumcision would look like a pretty insane practice at first glance.

Judgemant of insanity is usually dependant on conformity to societal values, which is why many sociopaths, who are perfectly able to function in society, but totally lack empathy, are usually thought quite normal by the people around them. At least until the police start finding the bodies in the cellar. :(

[Sambellina]

Originally posted by Nandragon
Sam, I do NOT think that (correct me if I've assumed wrongly) a child ABUSER does NOT suffer from mental illness. Child abuse 9 times out of 10 is a LEARNED behavior. Abuser's have been abused. Like men hitting their wives. It's a learned behavior, that CAN be UN-learned.

I will correct you because you have assumed wrongly and in discussions about mental illness it is very ignorant to assume.

Mental illness can cause you to become violent (as previously mentioned in this thread) if a parent physically abuses their child they are a child abuser.

I am also hoping that you didn't assume that child abuse referred to sexual abuse. Maybe I should've made it a bit clearer that I was referring to physical abuse.

[sortius]

Without getting into a quoting war, I will comment and leave things be I think:

Insanity is an illusion for sanity is a dream.

As a species, humans are somewhat unable to differenciate between "insane" (destructive) thought processes and "sane" (constructive) thought processes. For example: when moving from "childhood" to "adulthood" most (not all) humans aspire to be "mature". We keep the nagging thought of "is this mature, or not" at the back of our minds. The doubt itself puts us in a very unstable position. In some ways, this accounts for a lot of mental issues that society is currently dealing with. On the other side, if you do have definate delusions/psychosis/paranoia, coping with this without medication takes just as much energy as trying to "act mature" for society. I know myself that keeping my mental state in check takes a lot more effort than people are willing to give credit for.

It's all too easy to dismiss someone as "insane" or just plain crazy, but it takes effort to support other members of society and realise that we are all having crazy thoughts, it's just the difference between voicing them/acting on them and bottling them up inside.

I know I'm probably not making much sense, but this is usual for someone as "insane" as myself.

I think Albert Einstein put it best: "A thought that sometimes makes me hazy: 'Am I or are the others crazy'"...

remember, we're not all living in a square... give room for the circles, triangles, and any other polygonic shape you can think of... so give people room to fit in, you never know, they may be just like you.

I suppose I will finish with this, who has real freedom: Someone who bottles things up and is affraid to admit not only to others, but also themselves, that they have strange thoughts... or the person telling everyone and not worrying about doing so?

[Poisonivy]

Originally posted by Sambellina
People who have mental illnesses aren't "insane" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a years. They can be completely "normal" - they can hold down a job, form and maintain relationships and no-one would know.

Very well said.

I'm one of those people and no I'm not joking.

And no, I'm not going into details on my illness.

~ Poisonivy ~

[utopian]

Cassa and Sambellina are making a lot of very good points, and I am learning quite a bit about the topic. Thanks guys, this discussion is going pretty well actually. :)

Edited: unjustified personal attack

[Nandragon]

Utop,

I don't know Poison but I'm going to stand up for her!

Having lived your life in your own little square box, never I'm guessing been beaten the hell out of, fucked against your will, or shit on. When you have, then you will KNOW why she doesn't want to RELIVE the nightmare you ass. Not only live the nightmare but maybe the humiliation of telling a pipsqueak like you just ain't worth it.

I've been raped, I've been beaten...I'm 41. I can deal with it. If you want the gorey details of how my uncle at the age of 5 used to make me suck his dick....well pm me, ok!

[utopian]

I can claim that I'm the President of the United States, if I want to. But unless I can back it up or prove it, not everyone is going to believe me. I don't deny that Ivy's probably had terrible things happen to her, and I don't doubt that it's more serious than your average whingy high school "oh yah he raped me but we were both drunk and i didn't want him to". I'm very skeptical when it comes to reading about other people's lives over the internet.

[Nandragon]

You did it again.

You debased the feelings of someone based on your lack of...
How can u say "I don't doubt that it's more serious than your average whingy high school "oh yah he raped me but we were both drunk and i didn't want him to"???? How can you belittle someone else misfortune?

Granted that some are lies...but if someone has been tramatized by an event...who are you to say it's not horrendous enough.

Just the even of a high school rape WILL mentally scare someone for life. What degree, depends on the person.

You don't have to believe it. You are entitled as you say MR. Bush. But don't antagonize the "victim" or subject. It's call COMPASSION & EMPATHY. Something we don't see enough of on this board....something we should see more of!

Now...back to sex!

sorry this was the insane thread wasn't it! And here I am talking about how NORMAL I am:p

[utopian]

You idiot, "don't doubt" means believe. I'm not belittling Ivy's experiences by saying I don't doubt that they're worse than a teenager's bad sex encounters that they try to pass off as rape. (Yes, Nan, girls DO try and cover up unpleasant (but consensual) sex by lying and saying they were raped). I am agreeing that they were probably very traumatic.

Before you go and tell someone that they're being a jackass, why not actually read what they're saying in ENGLISH.

Read -> Comprehend -> Post.

[Buffy]

Actually utop, Nan was commenting more on your attitude towards those teenage girls who might have had bad sexual experiences, that while maybe not classed as rape may still be damaging...
Granted that some are lies...but if someone has been tramatized by an event...who are you to say it's not horrendous enough.

[Nandragon]

Yes, Utop

Buffy is right. You didnt EVEN read it.

Take ur own advice and READ the post.

AND I NEVER CALLED YOU an Idiot or a jackass.
Nope, I insinuated that you are a pipsqueak.


*squeak*

[utopian]

Gee, I'm so sorry for missing the fact that every unpleasurable sexual experience must be rape. One of the times I got head, it wasn't very good, I think I'll put that down to me being raped. Yep, that was it. I was obviously forced to have my dick sucked.

Just because you didn't like it, it doesn't make it rape. There are quite a few teenage girls out there who wear their "rape" as a badge of pride, and that you're not "cool" until you've been "raped" by your boyfriend. There are girls out there who will KNOWINGLY put themselves in a situation where they will consent to having sex with someone, then their way of complaining that it was bad was to say that they were raped. Because really, who wants to admit to having sex with a dud?

[Nandragon]

Utop,
No one said anything nor did we disagree that some girls CRY rape.

No, I was addressing your condesending, uncaring, attitude towards women that didn't want to discuss the dirty little details.

Like I said, if you want dirty little details, feel free to pm me. I'll tell you all about my Uncle, my mother beating me because my stepfather wanted to fuck me, the rape where I lost what I'd kept from everyone else.

OK?


And any blowjob should be good to you!
:p

[Buffy]

please please stop digging..
Its not a matter of the quality of the sex its the emotion of the sex.. a girl or boy could feel pressured into having sex, when they are not ready and/or scared to say no, its still consentual sex, but that doesn't mean its not damaging.
Obviously not all humans have such a hard view as you when it comes to this sort of thing.

I freely admit when sex is a dud, maybe thats just something you kinda have to do when you're actually having it... how else can you improve ?

[utopian]

Rick (or some other moderator) is soon going to tell us all to talk about it somewhere else. Rather than derail this thread even further, does anyone have any big stories about how insane people have affected their lives in a VERY significant way? I know that some people in this thread have some amazing stories to tell.

[Nandragon]

Originally posted by Buffy

I freely admit when sex is a dud, maybe thats just something you kinda have to do when you're actually having it... how else can you improve ?

new thread coming soon!

to loop the derailed thread back on track...mental and physical abuse are major contributors to SOME insanity.

[dredz]

If you are anti-social, do social psychologists regard you as insane?...or just another dumbass who's not getting laid?

[Fuzzy Dice]

I think I'm insane. Fortunately it's one of the happy kinds.

To define insanity, it is extreme mental deviation from the established norm, resulting in a major disruption of the lives of the individual and (not necessarily, but usually) those around them. Various conditions can result from mental and physical traumas and quite a few forms of 'insanity' are genetic in origin.

Anyone who needs daily meds to prevent violence should either be under very close supervision or locked away. Anyone who has simply had a traumatic experience (read: simply - because as causes go, it's relatively simple) should be able to be rehabilitated. Unless, of course, it's physical trauma resulting in actual damage to the brain.

[That Bloke]

Originally posted by Bifrost
Ok fuckit - want to comment on things and am currently drunk, so won't comment yet, but need to ask people what they think so that I can comment tomorrow when I am not drunk...

Are insane people able to be incorporated into society Or are they better off in jail OR is there a better solution???



Be careful of what you consider insane, Many sufferers of Bipolar Effective Disorder & even schizophrenia are able to keep it a secret from those around them & function yet technically these people are not sane.

[rascuache]

I've got to say i really disagree with Utopians view, I mean i've seen stuff like that happen but i know for a fact that generally if you've been raped, even if its date rape you generally dont wear it as a badge of honour because its such a traumatic experience...you dont even want to admit it to yourself let alone anyone else. Have you had a bad experience with this or something Utop, cause that comment seemed to come out of now where

On the topic of insanity, everyone is insane to a degree, that is we all go through bouts of mental illness from time to time, the degree differs, but in this day and age, mental illness is a part of life, everything including our genetic heritage, our lifestyle, our environment even guarantees that at some stage everyone will either suffer from depression, anxiety, paranoia or mania.

When you're there living it, it all seems to be a normal part of reality, you can only realise look at it and realise that no, you were a bit sick when its past....But while you're there, its reall and fuck me dead its fucking scary

[utopian]

Originally posted by rascuache
I've got to say i really disagree with Utopians view, I mean i've seen stuff like that happen but i know for a fact that generally if you've been raped, even if its date rape you generally dont wear it as a badge of honour because its such a traumatic experience...you dont even want to admit it to yourself let alone anyone else. Have you had a bad experience with this or something Utop, cause that comment seemed to come out of now where
What I meant was that some girls are never actually raped and may have just had an unpleasurable one night stand that was consensual on both parts. These girls will then go on to say "Oh yeah, he raped me" and reduce themselves to tears simply because a) it will get them attention or b) it will mean that they are accepted as a modern teenage girl who's figthing the fair fight against all the troubles of the world. Is it to hard to understand that I'm not saying "EVERYONE WHO WAS RAPED WEARS IT AS A BADGE OF HONOR"?

Sure, your partner accidentally scratching you with a fingernail while he's fooling around down there might be traumatic, but that doesn't mean that it should be passed off as rape just because you didn't like it.

And yes, it has had some sort of effect on me, as I was made to rush around and run after someone who "raped" a friend of mine on New Year's Eve 2000, when all he really did was put his hand on her thigh as they sat and watched the fireworks. He would've probably slid it up a little and tried to kiss her, but she obviously made it out of there before anything too bad happened.

[and3w]

Jesus, I'm sorry but have you ever had any experience of what rape does??????
I know you & me don't get on but I thought you were more intelligent than you are coming across in this thread.
Rape is when someone say's "NO"...male female, fucking, scratching (sexually) whatever and no matter what sex.

[utopian]

Way to read my post. :rolleyes:

[katana]

True insanity is a condition of either mental or chemical inballances in your brain. These manifest in violent or antisocial behaviours.

Psycosis and paranoria are enviromentally based conditions in where the emotional boundaries of people are stretched beyond breaking point.

Sexual and physical abuse are just that ABUSE. How people cope with that are as varied and complex as the person is. If someone feels that their own space has been abused then it has been abused.

I know people who have been raped,by family members and strangers,been beaten by family members and strangers and they each have dealt with it in their own way.

It doesn't make them insane,although at times when they were dealing with it they thought they were.

Medically mental illness is somewhat of a grey area,if it can't be cut out or dealt with drugs then it does not exist.

A lot of the recovery of the person depends on the support that they have around them and if they feel safe to talk about what they feel and it being heard in a non judgemental way. If the are not judged and their feelings are validated as being real for them,then it helps a lot.

[m0loch]

Originally posted by sortius
who has real freedom: Someone who bottles things up and is affraid to admit not only to others, but also themselves, that they have strange thoughts... or the person telling everyone and not worrying about doing so?

My wife used to work with people labled as "developmentally disabled" and many of these people were diagnosed with various mental disorders. I held a certain admiration for them for being absolutely free to do as they wish. One of the men she worked with, on an outing to the park, needed to urinate. Upon finding the restroom closed/locked for the season he proceded to drop trou right in the middle of the park and urinate. These people were truely free because they knew not of oppression, the don't have the mental capacity to understand their oppressor!

[m0loch]

Originally posted by dredz
If you are anti-social, do social psychologists regard you as insane?...or just another dumbass who's not getting laid?

neither, they see you as a consumer who can buy Paxil.

I'm not anti-social, I just happen to think most people are assholes and not worthy of my time.

[rosamund]

Define insanity:

A great majority of the world population still suffer from a crippling mental disorder, a delusional fantasy, if you will. there are so many of them that they have formed huge, centuries old societies, almost cults, all with different variations of the same illness.

They stop me in the street, they pester me for money for their organisations, and often harangue me for not attending their meetings.

If you think perhaps it's not right for me to criticize these people, then consider this; Just like me, most of you will have family members who suffer from the same illness, and will have witnessed their illnesses become exacerbated by exposure to other fellow sufferers, many of whom often think nothing of exploiting the more advanced victim's weaknesses to their own advantage.

Often, these disorders become more aggressive in light of tragic occurrences. This can manifest itself in many ways.

For example, in the aftermath of the 11/09/01 attacks, several people I knew became more fervent in their delusions, often beginning to blame other, fellow sufferers for either causing or bringing the tragedy upon themselves. Some of these guys were so affected they even stopped shaving, and threw out all their old clothing, choosing to wear only plain baggy clothes. Others stooped to insulting or attacking these ones with little or no provocation.

Now the United States of America is under direct control of one the worst sufferers of this illness, and to boot, a man who often quotes his illness as the direct cause of his need to invade countries and terrify or harm their people. Most amazingly, the countries he attacks usually have an overwhelmingly high number of his fellow sufferers.

The worst thing here is how the sane and level-headed among us have chosen to ignore these poor blighted individuals for so long. There are now so many sufferers out there, and so many in positions of great power or influence, that I'm afraid there could well now be no feasible treatment for their conditions.

There is however, a silver lining, a ray of hope. Many of you will have experienced, most likely in your adolescence like me, a kind of 'awakening'.

The symptoms of this illness seem to have a strong chance of regressing when the sufferer is exposed to positive stimuli such as music, video games, sex and other pleasurable experiences frowned upon by elder fellow sufferers.

A feeling, or a glimpse of individuality or freedom is often all it takes for a sufferer to liberate themselves, and more and more with young people this is becoming the case.

There may be responses to what I’ve posted along the lines of 'this should be a serious post and should stick to the topic', But I'm deadly serious. How else can you categorize religious faith, If not as a mental illness?

[m0loch]

Originally posted by rosamund
Define insanity:

How else can you categorize religious faith, If not as a mental illness?
I categorize it more as a weakness than as an illness.

I've often thought it odd that when one person has a unique imaginary friend that he talks to it is looked up as craziness or insanity but when one has the same imaginary friend as a bunch of other people it is normal???