Judaism

[rickbitch]

Recent events have caused me to think of the ideologies of jews. A news post that turned rather nasty has led me to believe that for some reason, it is forbidden for jews to benifit from electricity on the sabbath. Now, I don't get it. From what I understand, most jewish laws were around long before electricity was even imagined, so what gives? Surely there is some room within the structure of judaism for surviving in a particular society.

Another thing that I have never quite understood is Kosher. What exactly is it? I know that pork is off limits, but whats the deal?

I'm sure I will be able to think of other questions as the thread continues, so I'll leave them for now. And just in case you are wondering, yes, I AM questioning jewish beliefs, but I have already questioned my own (born and raised catholic) and found them to be a crock.



As per this forums rules, any sarcastic comment or anything that is out of line WILL be dealt with harshly. POST DELETION IS AT MY DISCRETION!

[Spingo]

I was under the impression that doing work on the sabbath was forbidden, and for the article in question, the jewish people that wanted the automatic lights installed objected to having to press the buttons as this constituted work.

What is work? By definition, it is the transfer of energy from one physical system to another. Technically, you could say that a person breathing means that work is taking place, as energy is being transferred from the air to your body. Others will argue that this doesn't count.

In the article itself, others would argue that pushing the button on a pedestrian crossing doesn't constitute work, yet some anal-retentive people may think that it is. It just depends on how pedantic you want to be.

Either way, it doesn't matter as we are all going to hell anyway :p

[sagit]

Originally posted by rickbishop
... From what I understand, most jewish laws were around long before electricity was even imagined, so what gives? Surely there is some room within the structure of judaism for surviving in a particular society.

Another thing that I have never quite understood is Kosher. What exactly is it? I know that pork is off limits, but whats the deal?
...! [/B]

I havent read Spingos post yet, so i may duplicate some or all of his answer/s.

Dealing with Kosher first, i asked someone at work what this meant (as i see it on a lot of food shops). They said it meant essentially "made the pure way" (ie with the proper products, no impure products or methods, fully washed hands, etc..). I knew that cleanliness is very important to jews and muslims, etc.

As for the first part, i imagine the thinking is that they've lived without electricity pre-electricity, and so such things are not merged into the culture.

If anyone is more authoritative on these matters, i'm quite happy to be corrected.

[King_Crud]

Doesn't kosher mean it has to be blessed by a rabbi and made in a certain way?

[Nandragon]

Originally posted by rickbishop
it is forbidden for jews to benifit from electricity on the sabbath. Now, I don't get it. From what I understand, most jewish laws were around long before electricity was even imagined, so what gives? Surely there is some room within the structure of judaism for surviving in a particular society.

Another thing that I have never quite understood is Kosher. What exactly is it? I know that pork is off limits, but whats the deal?

[B]

I only glanced thru the previous posts. And I hope the nazi moderator doesn't interupt my train of thought during my post here.....

I worked for a LARGE jewish community.http://www.savj.org/children.cfm

First off let me say that there are branches to Judaism, as there are to the christian organizations.
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/minis/mini/judaismMINI/judaismMINI2.html
Orthodox, Conservative and Reform.
Orthodox is the STRICT version...like catholism
Conservative....methodist
Reform....7th day adventist (strict, but can turn on lights)



I did not learn as much as I would have liked, so I am NOT an authority, however...

Work constitutes ANY force or exertion given. During the Sabbath, as according to the rules that God put forth to ALL of us, not just the jews, (sabbath being the Christian SUNDAY is the Jewish SATURDAY, they're calendar is exact and has not lost it's hutzpah:p ) no WORK should be done.
In the Orthodox synagogue, they hire someone to do the work for them on the sabbath. Such as turning on lights, unlocking doors and etc. They also CAN NOT DRIVE on the sabbath. Orthodox Jewish communities are ALWAYS within walking distance of their synagogue.

Sorry poor sentence structure.

Kosher....lay ppl don't realize that the Jewish community supports themselves. In a small rural area the community "imports" ppl to work for the community. The Savannah community in 1997 supported over 5300 FAMILIES. The grocery stores in the synagogue area serviced the majority of the community. Krogers. LOL. Cows are raised by ordained rabbi's (who have a proper name), cows are slaughtered by an ordained rabbi (again has a proper name) then the meat is shipped to your local community where another rabbi makes sure that it is handled and packaged by "kosher" standards.

Kosher...no pork (cloven hoof) shrimp (anything with a cawl over its' head) or lobster. Fish, beef and chicken. Meat CAN NOT be served with cheese or dairy. Cheese and dairy are Parve.

Orthodox homes have 2 refridgerators, 2 stoves, separate dishes, pots and serving utensils. One for dairy, one for meat. Kosher also means that their plates, stove, refridgs everything has been blessed at the Mikva by an ordained rabbi. (seen this first hand and it's a hoot!)

The female of an orthodox house is NOT kosher. Even though she keeps a kosher home. She bleeds there for she cannot light the stove to cook, her husband must.

Also, a orthodox male jew, is NOT allowed to touch another female. PERIOD. an orthodox female will NEVER show her hair to another man other than her husband.

The rabbi at the grocery store assures that the beef has not been prepared in or on the same area as the cheese or pork.
(this is set down in the bible somewhere...I'll have to jar my memory)


On another note, if you are traveling and you are Jewish the outside communities will provide for "their own". Meaning if you are in need of help, job or sometimes even money they will provide.

I have MORE I can tell....ALL is laid down in the bible. YES, the have the same words as given by god that is in the old testiment.

Now Reform and Conservative factions are not as strick as the orthodox. For instance they eat cheese burgers and shrimp.

Did you know that McDonalds in Israel DOES NOT serve Cheese on their burgers?

[Movius]

Judaism (like many religions) is full of hypocrisy, fallacy and assorted random shit. The sooner people stop taking the views of these sorts of institutions seriously the better.:swear:

Having said that, I don't particularly care what rules an individual chooses to constrain their lives by. If someone chooses not to eat meat X unless it's cooked with style Y, good for them, or in yesterday's article's case; if people don't want to use a crossing signal because their enchanted cosmic pixie master told them not to, thats up to them.

However i have a large objection to the forced application of these rules to those around them, whether it be by way of law or by way of family. The attitude of "I believe the sky is green therefore my children must." is extremely cruel to those who are subjected to it.

[sagit]

Originally posted by King_Crud
Doesn't kosher mean it has to be blessed by a rabbi and made in a certain way?

maybe the methods and the area in blessed by rabbi, but certainly made a certain way..using "pure ingredients" and "pure hands", etc, as i understand it...

[MisterBishi]

What Is Kosher?

The following is an outline of a very intricate and complicated set of rules that make up the laws of Kashruth. It is meant only to provide a general overview of Kashruth. A competent rabbi must always be consulted for proper interpretation and implementation of the law.

Answer: The Hebrew word "Kasheir," or "Kosher," means fit or proper. When applied to food, the term indicates that an item is fit for consumption according to Jewish law. The word "Kashruth" refers to the general subject of Kosher food.

There are three categories of Kosher food - Meat, Dairy and Parve (or Pareve).

1. Meat - For an animal to be Kosher, it must have split hooves and chew its cud. (Examples: cow, goat, lamb.) Non-Kosher animals include pig, horse, camel and rabbit. Kosher fowl include chicken, turkey, goose, and certain duck. Animals and fowl must be slaughtered by a specialist, called a shochet, and then soaked and salted in accordance with Jewish law. All carnivorous (meat-eating) animals and fowl, and the blood of all animals and fowl, and any derivatives or products thereof, are not Kosher.

2. Dairy - Milk and milk products (cheese, cream, butter, etc.) of a Kosher animal are Kosher-Dairy. These may not be eaten in combination with meat or fowl.

3. Parve - Foods which contain neither meat nor dairy ingredients are called "Parve." All fruits, grains and vegetables in their natural state are Kosher and Parve. Fish which have fins and scales are Kosher and Parve. Some examples are salmon, halibut and carp. Not Kosher fish species include sturgeon, catfish and swordfish. All shellfish, eel, sharks, underwater mammals, and reptiles are not Kosher. A Parve item can become either dairy or meat when it is cooked together with food in either category. (Example: fish fried in butter is considered dairy, not Parve.)

Certain grain products and their derivatives, although Kosher the rest of the year, may not be used during Passover. In addition, in many communities legumes are not permitted on Passover. Kosher for Passover items may be made only with utensils that are Kosher for Passover according to Jewish law.

The separation of meat and dairy products also applies to the utensils used for storing, preparing and serving these foods. Therefore, completely separate sets of pots, dishes, cutlery, etc. must be used for meat and dairy foods. Kosher food prepared in pots used previously for preparing non-Kosher food may become not Kosher.

This post was brought to you by Google (http://www.google.com) - "Your number one source of not sounding like an idiot."

[Nandragon]

Bishi...

Split hoof? on a cow or goat?

no...cloven hoof or split is pig, deer....

[MisterBishi]

Originally posted by MisterBishi

This post was brought to you by Google (http://www.google.com) - "Your number one source of not sounding like an idiot."

[C0V3R]

With kosher meat, I believe they drain the blood, and someone mentioned that the blood cannot be consumed. One thing I dont understand is how they can justify eating the meat, even after its drained given that there will inevitably be some blood in the tissue and capilleries etc etc.

[Bostonmess]

So does the refrigerator have to be turned off on the sabbath? If so, what about the Stellas? Surely they don't drink warm beer on the sabbath? :eek:

I would like to know when they decided on the electricity thing. I mean, when was it invented/discovered/put to use. How long after was it decided not to use it on the sabbath? Who made up the rule?

[dozer]

they would have someone to open the beer, stored maybe at that persons house?

[RASPUTIN]

Content deleted. Way off topic.

hey I was pissed lol

[Nandragon]

The Jews didn't kill Jesus per sec

Politics did.

I never heard anything about the blood. Silly. blood is in every cell. The cattle is raise by a jew, fed jewish grain, slaughtered by a jew, packaged by a jew and served to jews by a jew.

All M&M's and alchohol are kosher by the way.

[Bostonmess]

The Ashkenazic Rabbinical Court is informing the Jews of Jerusalem that after much debate and discussion they have reached the following conclusion concerning the use of electricity during the Sabbath. When the electrical company is owned by non-Jews, and the electricity has been turned on before the Sabbath, it is permissible for Jews to benefit from its use over the Sabbath.

Date: 15 Kislev, 5691 (5 December, 1930)

http://www.jtsa.edu/library/exhib/broadsid/3.html

[Bostonmess]

Jews that closely follow traditional practice don't do a whole category of activities, known in Hebrew as Melacha, on Shabbat. Melacha is usually badly translated as "work"; but it is better to use the Hebrew word, because the English word carries connotations of hard labor and other concepts that are inappropriate. Technically, there are 39 supercategories of melacha. They are derived from the classes of activities performed during the construction of the Mishkan (Tabernacle) in the desert, following the exodus from Egypt.

One of the prohibited forms of melacha is lighting a fire. So Jews that closely follow traditional practice do not light fires on the Sabbath. (In fact it is traditional to light candles just before the Sabbath comes in as the last act of melacha done before the Sabbath descends). Now, when you drive a car, and you put your foot on the ignition, you produce a spark of fire. Thus, such Jews also do not use motor vehicles on the Sabbath, for it violates the prohibition against lighting fire on Shabbat. Electricity is more complicated (there being long arguments about whether it is fire, or whether it is only banned for falling under one of the other heads), but without getting into the detail, suffice to say that it is not used because it too falls within the various prohibitions. However, there are some exceptions, such as lights or VCRs preprogrammed on timers (note that the VCRs, the screen should not go on, as this would entice one to watch the program).

However, different movements have different positions on the issue. (http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/07-03.html)

[Bostonmess]

There are various halachic (legal interpretation of scripture) problems in using the basic refrigerator-freezer combination appliance in use today. Some of these problems are standard and some relate to the various optional features that are offered by the manufacturer. Before we approach these problems it is necessary to note that today without the use of a refrigerator the main course of the Sabbath meal may be inedible, and medicines and infants' and children's food may spoil. It is because of these inconveniences that we need to define the problems and try to remedy them.

With luxury attachments to refrigerators that are not needed for basic food preservation, such as ice makers, digital readouts, auto sensing lights, and the likes, there is no basis to apply to them the same leniencies as applied to the basic refrigerator, and they must be deactivated before the Sabbath, and preferably not used at all on the Sabbath. Furthermore, some of these attachments are clearly prohibited to be used on the Sabbath.

The most basic problem is the refrigerator bulb that turns on upon opening the door. This is a violation of the Biblical work of kindling a fire. The way to correct this problem is simply to remove the bulb. A problem arises when someone unintentionally replaces the bulb. It may be permitted to open the door through a double Rabbinical prohibition. A simple way of doing this is by wrapping a towel around the handle and having two people open the door together. Two people doing a work in an unusual manner is a double Rabbinical prohibition. The circumstances that justify using this method are: when he feels that his Sabbath joy will be severely compromised if he and his children will not be able to partake of the Sabbath meal; when the nutritional meal of the infant is in the refrigerator and there is no substitute; when a person who is ill does not have any substitute medicine except for that in the refrigerator. Closing the door involves a Rabbinical prohibition of quenching a metal fire, therefore, it is sufficient for one person to close it with the towel.

Complicated stuff (http://www.science-halacha.com/elec/elec_eng_F1.htm)

There's masses of it (http://www.science-halacha.com/elec/elec_eng_A1.htm)

[Holster]

they hire someone to do the work for them on the sabbath. Such as turning on lights, unlocking doors and etc

as far as i know jews are not allowed to make ANYONE work on the sabbath, this inlcudes getting someone to turn on lights for them, serving them in a shop ect, they can not even allow a animal work for them on the sabbath, the lights are turned on/off with a timer.

[Nandragon]

Well, tell that to Don.
He still works for them.

On saturdays he would go over to Bnai Brith and turn the lights on, the pump to the Mikva and other odds assundries.

[and3w]

Originally posted by Holster
as far as i know jews are not allowed to make ANYONE work on the sabbath, this inlcudes getting someone to turn on lights for them, serving them in a shop ect, they can not even allow a animal work for them on the sabbath, the lights are turned on/off with a timer.

Holster, you are correct in one way...another jew cannot be hired, however an 'infidel' can - I think this may include an animal?.
Most Hassidim now use those automatic thingy's that turn sockets, light's etc on

[Holster]

Originally posted by and3w
Holster, you are correct in one way...another jew cannot be hired, however an 'infidel' can - I think this may include an animal?.
Most Hassidim now use those automatic thingy's that turn sockets, light's etc on

7. Do Not Make (or allow) Others Work.

Besides your not being allowed to work, you are prohibited from doing anything that will make the following people work. You are not to allow any of these to work

* Your children
* Any employee or person who would serve you (this includes any stranger who would serve you).
* Any animal you own.
* Any non-Jewish person in your home.


read more (http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/sabbath1.htm)

[maccabean]

basically, kosher and electricty has already been explained really well in this post. thank god i didn't have to explain it.

kosher...the reason for it is really unknown or may have been lost in tradition or has something to do with cleanliness. either way, the rules are pretty complicated and i don't observe them.
this is unlike the sabbath which is our designated day of rest as commanded by god which involves no work. turning on electricity is considered work (and yes it involves transferring of energy)
ie fire. rabbis have decreed that electricity is like fire.

either way, these traditions have been around for a long time, since before christianity or islam and even if the reason was lost through the ages we would still be expected to keep them because 'that is what god has commanded' kinda like do...but don't ask why.

the day that all jews decide to press a traffic light button on the sabbath is the day when judaism ceases to become a religeon because then we wouldn't be following the written law and thats what seperates us from the rest of the world.

[rickbitch]

Quite frankly I was hoping you would reply, so that everyone could discuss this in a calm and logical manner so that a better understanding could be acheived by all.

My next question is: What is the deal with skull caps? I know that the heirarchy in the catholic church wear them, and I assume this is a holdover from judaism, but what are their purpose?

[Holster]

"It is to remind you that there is something above your head. The greater the awareness of the Divine presence, the less likely you are to distance yourself from God.

There are indeed many Jews today who wear two head coverings, usually a skullcap and a hat, for double spiritual protection."

stolen from here (http://www.jewish.co.uk/question11.php3)

[Bostonmess]

Skull caps are so that when they get older you can't see their bald spot, might get one myself :D

Maccabean, a lot of people follow a written law?

A lot of people adhere to a religion but break the "litle" rules when it suits them. Bit like me with the bylaws :)

I find it pretty hard to believe how incomprehensible it is, I mean, jeez all those rules. I find that about opening the fridge door to be almost like the Rabbi's taking the piss? You need two people and a towel!?! What's the rational explanation? :D I'm pretty sure Jews have a very strong but dry sense of humour? But that's an impression I get from the Tv.

[Nandragon]

Ach! Niecht!

They do have a sense of humor. The just have the wits and the sensibilites not to tell jokes infront of ppl they do not know.

Tell us Macbean...about the tradition, in which you go to synagogue and perform the yearly tradition of washing away the sins of the year. I can't remember the holiday. I don't think it's the same one where you "sell" you food to someone till the kasrooth is over. I listened to the lessons, but not good. I can only remember Charlie Gordon snickering about washing all his sins down river...and filling it up.

[berserk]

kosher sounds a lot like the Islamic "halal" (which I'm told roughly translates as "permitted")
Except that Muslims add all narcotics & alcohol to the non-halal list.

[MisterBishi]

Halal is meat that has been bled from the throat and blessed when slaughtered, although the huge demand for halal chicken in the UK means that the blessing is now usually played through speakers in the slaughterhouse.

Although you're right that they're not permitted, drugs and alcohol are not 'non-halal', the word halal is only used in the context of meat.

[maccabean]

yep skull caps are there to remind us of a 'God' above, but also to seperate us from other people so that you could point out a jew wakling down the street if he was wearing a yamulka.
and yeh also i was just thinking about jewish comedians, there are quite a few, adam sandler, jerry seinfeld, austin tayshus, elliot goblet, rachel berger, elle mcfeast, mel brooks, ben stiller (comedian?), andy kaufman, the list goes on and on.
the festival of washing away your sins? umm, well that ones coming up actually. though its not specifially a festival....the idea is that we approach the festive season without any sins upn our shoulders and repent for them 'thus washing them away' thats not to say we actually lose them, but we loose the guilt for them.
oh and by the way muslims can eat kosher meat there are quite a few muslims who buy from the local kosher butcher if they live in our area.
and about following written law? only about 10 - 20% of jews follow it strictly...like my parents. there aren't a lot of them cos its just too restrictive though i can think of the amish, buddhist, hari krishna, even strict islamic codes that are more restrictive.

[Tintin]

Most of my knowledge of Judaism comes from my mum. She's not 'authoritative', but remember this is how these ideas propagate themselves and diverge.

There's Jewish religion, and there's Jewish culture. Hence the term 'non-practising' Jew. To say 'I'm a non-practising virgin' is a crock. :swear:

My impression is that the rules for food originally derive from the olden days when diseases from eating certain animals were identified as causing morbidity and mortality. In those days, quality control of meat products was not crash hot so avoidance was a wise measure.

Also, there are some rules such as not eating meat and dairy products at the same time. The intention by this is to give the next generation of animal a chance; it would be unwise to kill a cow (for its meat) and deprive the calf of milk at the same time. (A recipe for species extinction).

There are great variations in how particular people are with the rules. There is a book published with approved foods.

Wearing a skull cap is analogous to raising your hat in respect for someone, except mechanically in reverse, in humility to god.

[LauraleeBug]

Originally posted by rickbishop
Recent events have caused me to think of the ideologies of jews. A news post that turned rather nasty has led me to believe that for some reason, it is forbidden for jews to benifit from electricity on the sabbath. Now, I don't get it. From what I understand, most jewish laws were around long before electricity was even imagined, so what gives? Surely there is some room within the structure of judaism for surviving in a particular society.

Another thing that I have never quite understood is Kosher. What exactly is it? I know that pork is off limits, but whats the deal?

I'm sure I will be able to think of other questions as the thread continues, so I'll leave them for now. And just in case you are wondering, yes, I AM questioning jewish beliefs, but I have already questioned my own (born and raised catholic) and found them to be a crock.



As per this forums rules, any sarcastic comment or anything that is out of line WILL be dealt with harshly. POST DELETION IS AT MY DISCRETION!

Okey dokey - where do I start?
Having lived & been married to a jewish guy for nearly 10 yrs; part of whose family was *extremely* orthadox - yeah, I gave this life a good go for the sake of my marriage & their laws have a *kind of* sense to them....

First, lemme tell you that there are pretty much 3 types of Judaism to follow: Orthadox, Conservative & Reform...

Most ppl who are jewish by birth but pretty much don't wanna know from the religious rules except for family traditions (i.e., weddings, funerals...) are Reform. They do NOT follow the laws except for maybe Yom Kippor (considered the holiest day in the Jewish calendar; it is the day of atonement - or forgiveness of your own transgressions against g-d & your fellow man....).

Conservatives may even go to Synagogue often, (esp on the High Holy Days of Yom Kippor & Rosh Hashonna (jewish New Year) and fast & perhaps do the right thing on Passover (no leavened bread products allowed)... but pretty much forget everything that doesn't fit with the modern world.

Orthadox (and more specifically the Hassids [those guys with the curls called 'payaas'] & the long black coats) who follow the laws set down in the book of Deuteronomy without much benefit of modern consideration....

We were orthadox. The concept of not using electricity on the Sabbath (called Shabbos or Shabbot btw) which starts at sundown on Friday until sundown on Sat is because of the law that you shall "do no work on the sabbath" in consideration for
g-d who rested on the 7th day & did no work. To the jews, the 7th day is Saturday.

To them, the ultimate work was the lighting of the home fires; the fuel needed, the food required by the women, etc.... the concept was that the whole family receive a break from working; kids & women too - so that the whole family has the day to be together & pray & study & enjoy each other's company....

But the jews ain't *THAT* stuffy, Ok? Shabbos was supposed to be a happy time; and indeed for 2 married ppl to have sex on the sabbath was considered an extra blessing on your house...

Therefore, in the jewish community there is a massive rush around 4PM on friday (even earlier in the winter) to get home on time with enough food & fuel & whatever so that the cooking gets done on time and the rest is party time... this includes heaps of drinking & the men usually sing after dinner.... Not exactly the worst way in town to grow up....

And yes, there are MANY ways that jews get around the laws... We have a special flat metal plate that takes up the whole stove that u put on top then adjust the burners so that one side is hotter than the other for heating up (or keeping heated) the traditional shabbos foods (like STEW! which is easy to keep & called "cholent")....

Also, yes, we can use electricity on the sabbath - you're just not allowed to turn it on & off or change the TV channel... therefore - you buy this miracle of modern technology called an electronic "timer"..... :) See? Modern orthadox jew don't esp find that there is a dicotomy btwn the modern world & the laws of the Torah.... they just cleverly get around them!!

Ok, the deal about Kosher food... It's pretty much a straight line. You can see (from this day & age in hindsight) that the laws were made to keep ppl from being sick!!! Dodgy foods before the days of refridgeration were just NOT allowed; incl: shellfish, pork, birds of prey, animals of prey, bottom feeding fish (fish w/o scales) & esp mixing meat & milk.... Not bad advice back in the days of the bible.

Today, obviously, Kosher is not necessary for the reasons of health, but the jews believe in something called the "sacred & the profane" Therefore, everything in real life that is beneficial; eating, sex, even going to the toilet have special prayers that raise the art of living to the sacred. You eat kosher food not so that you don't get sick; but so that you raise the simple act of eating (which is basically in it's purest form why we make $ and go home to our families, etc.) and this is best personified in regular life as a person's personal family diet...

Hope this helps to clear a few things up... Obviously I am not an expert. If anyone has any more detailed questions they are welcome to ask my ex-husband of who I spoke of at the top of this post (his ZGeek username is "GetWithTheProgram") and he studied Judaism in college. My information comes from years of being with him.

What's funny is that from what I know; the jewish & muslim religions are not that far off in belief systems...

Too bad they can't make it work for them.... :(

However!! Just because I have jewish experience doesn't mean I don't support a *Palestinian state*, but!!! I think it was wrong of what the U.S. did after WWII only out of guilt because they didn't stop Hitler fast enough; and YES! Jews DO need their own country -- but since when is it proper to kick out the original residents just to try to make up for it? The whole mid-east mess is directly related to the U.S. involvement... there! I've said it... so sue me now :P

[LauraleeBug]

Originally posted by Tintin
Wearing a skull cap is analogous to raising your hat in respect for someone, except mechanically in reverse, in humility to god.

Yes, exactly! Men & boys over the age of 3 are supposed to wear a yarmulke (pronounced "ya ma ka") all the time even when sleeping to remind them that G-d is above them always...

Married women are not allowed to show their hair, therefore they are allowed to cover it with hats, scarves, or a *wig* (believe it or not!) Non-married women are allowed to show their hair, but must wear skirts (not pants - you aren't allowed to "dress in the manner of the opposite sex") below the knee; sleeves down to the elbow; and collars up to your neckbone. This is all done in the name of privacy; that is - once I have picked my man, I should not entince others.... Also, the Torah is extremely unique in the fact that it had a blueprint for "society"... Every middle-class to rich person had to leave 10% of his crop not harvested unless there was some poor ppl who needed to eat... Similarly, society rules dictates that unless married - men & women don't hang out together (esp. alone; esp. a grown man with a little girl.... ) so there were already built-in societal rules governing things that "could go wrong" like child molestation...

I have great respect for jewish religion & tradition...

But, in case you're wondering about me, I am not really Jewish. I'm wiccan (always WAS) and my ex & I were pretty successful at making the spiritual ends meet of both spectrums...

And yes (laugh if you must) I DID adhere to those dress rules (at least in public or when there was a rabbi to see me, lol!) and the dietary rules, and I lit candles every Friday at sundown & still know the prayers... I even did the mikvah thing and went to the pools to dip before I would have sex with my husband after I had my period <--- Now, I know this bugs feminists but it really has a *nice* reason to it; not just that guys don't wanna fuck u when you're bloody, K???

I guess my whole point is that orthadox or extreme judaism is not easily understood; but if you ask - the reasons behind things are most beautiful... The rules they believe are made so that all men have the same benefit & rights; sorta pre-democracy, if you will....

Questions, comments, anything you don't understand or wanna debate about: feel free to email me: LauraleeBug@yahoo.com


That's it for now!!! ;)

[maccabean]

thanks lauralee bug, i think that explains it very well - many times better than how i would have put it.


oh and another thing, in case anybody was wondering
the ultra orthodox don't believe in the state of israel and don't support it. they believe that the state of israel is too secular and will only properly eventuate when the messiah comes.

[LauraleeBug]

Originally posted by maccabean
thanks lauralee bug, i think that explains it very well - many times better than how i would have put it.


oh and another thing, in case anybody was wondering
the ultra orthodox don't believe in the state of israel and don't support it. they believe that the state of israel is too secular and will only properly eventuate when the messiah comes.

Well thankyou, thankyouverymuch... And you are absolutely right about that state of Israel thing...

A good (sorta) modern take on that is that movie "The Chosen" with Robbie Benson (circa 1982).

A good movie to understand the men/women/orthadox family thing is "A Stranger Amoung Us" with Melanie Griffin as an undercover cop trying to play as a jewish girl in Bklyn, interesting...

Just a side note to Rick: Believe it or not, (and I don't admit this often) my family is catholic too. :S I even did the first-holy-communion AND conformation (<-- sp? :P) ....

But I have to tell you that is the first rebellion of my life when I told my mum when I was about 7 that I didn't think catholic was for me; she said "just make your communion for your grandmother's sake", etc... so *I DID* but then she reneged because after I was 12 yr old she got married again & had my brother & sister and then it was like "Well, you *gotta* make your confirmation now, or else how will they get in the church if you don't join?", blah fucken blah blah.....

How em-fucken-barressing I had to even go to fucken CONFESSION at the age of 15 and when I thought I told the guy (oops, priest - whatever) all the crap I think I did wrong (there wasn't much, I'm kinda a goody-goody despite it all) he outright fucken ASKED me: "Well, what about sex?"
I go, "well, what about it?"
"Did you ever have sex?"
"Yes"
"Well, don't you think you ought to confess that?"
"Why? That's not a sin"
"Ummmm... actually - yes, yes it is a sin. Why do you think it wasn't??"
"Because I loved the boy I had sex with" ..... don't remember the rest but You get the picture LOL!

I thought it was extremely freakish that one of my first memories when I was about 2 yrs old was going to church w/my mom and all I saw was gloom&doom&dampdarkwalls (picture old churchs in NYC, ok?); smelling of candles & incense & TOO quiet then you look up,down,&around and there's all these stainedglass and/or statues of bleeding fucken saints with daggers in their hearts or hanging on crosses by their balls and I just go WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

To which my mom slaps me upside the head & tells me to have some respect.... Welcome to Catholicism, boys&girls! The only religion to believe you can actually SIN throught the sense of smell !!!

Well, I have studied all kinds of religions in my life. My book collection in NY has every major religious book (Buddah, Confusius, Hare Krishna, Torah, Bible, Quoran, Satanic Bible) etc.... Metaphysics is sorta my hobby u could say....

And after all that, early in my life I chose Wicca...

But that's a topic for another thread!!! ;)