determinism vs free will

[dozer]

this debate seems to always come up after a few drinks. some people seem to be under the impression for some reason that are lives are pre determined, that is everything that happens to us is meant to happen and we have no control. theres plenty of stuff on the net about determinism and the reasons for it, please dont anyone bring up deja vu.

the other school of thought is that we actually have the power to course the path of our own destiny, and the choices we make will affect our future, commonly called causation, eg this event caused that.

im interested to know which side people are on and why.

[jambo]

I think that our lives are pre determined (or so to speak).

I believe that every decision and/or action is dependant on variables. All variables can be predicted. Therefore, the future must be pre-defined.

[Spingo]

I have a theory (no, it's not bunnies!), and I could go on and explain it in full detail, and it would probably make a good book one day, assuming people give a shit about what I have to say, but here goes.

Your life is both predetermined but you have total free-will.

Surely that's impossible? It isn't, and my theory covers why. I'm not going to go into lots of detail, but these are the basic points.

There are four known dimensions - length, width, depth and time. I postulate that there is a 5th dimension, orthogonal to the existing four. This is the reality dimension.

In this reality, your whole life, and everyone's life around you is predetermined, and you follow it like a story. Think about when you have dejavu... It's just like looking a few pages further into the book.

So where does free will come into it? In alternate realities, you made the other decision. You did the other action. You thought the other though. You said other words. This means that there are infinate planes of reality, much like there are infinate planes of the four known dimensions.

That's the basics of it, and what is relevant to this thread. It also covers what happens after you die, purpose of life and many other things, but I won't bore you all with them...

[dozer]

just as i suspected, people believing in predeterminism, how sad you have no control over your lives, i am also looking for the proof and i dont believe deja vu to be one of them. some recent scientific theory has shown that deja vu relates to the left and right hemispheres of the brain getting out of synch during times of subconscious fear, and this experience we label deja vu.

as for your theory spingo it sounds interesting, and i also believe in alternate realitites but from what you have said about your theory it still seems to be determinism, as its not apparent that you can travel to, or live in more than one dimension.

also how can all the variables of your life be predicted?

[druid]

The determinant of my life matrix came out as zero hence I have control.

[CMYK]

Originally posted by Spingo
I have a theory (no, it's not bunnies!), and I could go on and explain it in full detail, and it would probably make a good book one day, assuming people give a shit about what I have to say, but here goes...

That's basically the Many-Worlds Theory of Quantum Mechanics. Kind of Schrodinger's Cat with lots of alternatives.


I'm a free-willer.

[coreageek]

Originally posted by CMYK
That's basically the Many-Worlds Theory of Quantum Mechanics. Kind of Schrodinger's Cat with lots of alternatives.


I'm a free-willer.

Indeed. Do a google search for "roger penrose" and "free will".
Roger Penrose is the theoretical mathmatician who worked with Stephen Hawking when they came up with theories about black holes (such as singularities). He's written books about how quantum mechanics could provide very good evidence of free will. Interesting stuff - I can't explain it as well as he can, of course so I'll leave it up to him. . . and google.

[skozombie]

Originally posted by druid
The determinant of my life matrix came out as zero hence I have control.

I dont know whats sadder, your joke or the fact that i got the joke.

[rickbitch]

Both.

You have free will to make decisions, but the rest of your life will be determined by those and subsequent decisions.

[Cassa]

Agreed with rick.

Your free will can be terminated at any time depending on decisions and actions you make with it. And don't forget you change reality by perceiving it, and by the time the future becomes the present it is already the past and therefore does not exist :)

[dozer]

a good example rick but thats not determinism, what you are talking about is cause and effect. sure your free will does have consequences and you have to live with them but they havent been predetermined. the outcome is always a variable and its of your own making, wether your choice may be limited to a previous choice you have made.

[Scythe]

Considering that predicting the future is a practical impossiblity as far as anyone knows, we have no way of being sure that events could possibly have turned out any other way than the way they do, and so in turn we have no of way of knowing if the course of the future could have been any different.

What this means is that the whole determinism v.s. free will debate can never be anything more than an interesting thought experiment. Since neither side can be proven or disproven, which side you pick is entirely a matter of personal choice.

Unless it was already predetermined which side you were going to pick, of course.

Personally, I go for the free will side of things, but only in to a limited degree, since I also believe the unconscious drives our instincts bequeath to us influence a large part of our behaviour.

[Misao]

I really don't think this matter. Not a single bit. The only thing I believe in is that i am.
The rest of it wouldn't matter because it doesn't change that basic fact, and I will still live life (or not) and go through experiences etc etc etc regardless

[coreageek]

Originally posted by Scythe
Since neither side can be proven or disproven, which side you pick is entirely a matter of personal choice.

Unless it was already predetermined which side you were going to pick, of course.


haha. . . nice one :D

[pleed]

I agree what Cassa and Rick say.
You can choose what you want to do, the outcome of your choice determines your future.
It's similar to a 3 hour argument that a mate and I had once, I was saying that medical technology will eventually become so good, that it could make you immortal, unless you died 'unnaturally' of course. He was saying that it couldn't happen becuase they could never prove it. If no one died then they couldn't prove that you couldn't die.

[oracle]

To continue this trend... I also agree with rickbishop and Cassa.

I will expand on what rick said by quoting from the the Bhagavad Gita, an ancient Hindu text. When I read it, one phrase that stuck in my mind was "Never consider yourself the cause of the result of your actions." That is to say: You have full control of your actions, however, the occurences that follow as a result of your actions are completely out of your control.

[still life]

A theory I've heard which takesmiddle ground:

Major events in your life are fixed and determined, where you are born, educated, what you do, what you like, your place of employment and so forth.

Beyond that you have a certain degree of free will around the edges, to eat the tim tams or not eat the tim tams, but in the end it doesn't matter, but you DID have free will.

Based on this theory, the major achievements, events and relationships in your life are all predetermined, I don't think I like that, but then, I'm undecided as to what I really believe.

[scathing]

If you make a choice that determines the rest of your life, that's still not determinism. Its causality. Thus, if you believe in free will, what results has nothing to do with determinism.

Determinism is that every choice you make is already being known beforehand. That, if you are ever presented with "options", then its irrelevant since you'll only ever pick one. Which means you weren't really given options to choose from in the first place, just smoke and mirrors.

If that option is "free" (i.e. not known beforehand, and so totally up to you) then what happens as a result of your choice is effect from your cause. However, it is not guaranteed to occur before the choice is made (which is the jist of determinism). Its just a possibility.

[ersatz]

I reckon it's a combination of the two. Determinism in your genetics, upbringing, place of birth, education beyond your control etc, but you have complete freedom to do whatever you want with what you're given.

[thechop]

As every event is the result of a past interaction, the world is truely deterministic. However, this does not extend itself to prediction, at the core of physics lies uncertainty - we can find probabilities but that wont give us actuality.

I like this as a fundamental idea, yet in practice we must choose something different to function. In order for our justice system to work, we must believe in free will - that each individual is accountable for their actions. We can see the problems that arise when people stop taking responsibility for themselves by looks at all the insane cases that get through. (Note to self: dont take pills and dive into sandbars at bondi when scat the next day - dense sand is hard, may result in spinal injuries).

It all depends on what you like though, some people want to feel as if they are in control of their life. They deal with stress by knowing they can do something about their situation.
Others take refuge in the idea that it was all meant to happen that way, all out of their control. While simple determinism doesnt say theres an overall meaning behind it, theres a freedom in knowing that maybe there is, especially if you believe it to be good.

[Ins0mniac]

I think everything in the universe is pre-determined in a sense.

Every action is caused by the action that preceded it.

Even in free will, it's the process of your brain that determines your decisions. If you believe in the soul and all that then I guess free will reins. If you believe in your mind being a biological process of your brain, free will is an illusion as the internal structure and the external forces that modify that structure through your senses determines your mind and your decisions.

[robotoverflow]

Nothing is predetermined in any meaningful sense. I mean just because you lack control over an outcome it doesn't mean that there is some cosmic force controlling what is happening to you and everyone else. It just means you have no control over certain variables.

Just like in any environment we all have an effect on our surroundings if we like it or not, if we intend it or not, and that means that we all have an effect on each other. The events that happen on this tiny planet of ours are just by-products of all interaction between ourselves and our environment. That's it, nothing more.

[Ins0mniac]

Just watch The Matrix Reloaded. It explorers these issues.

[still life]

Originally posted by Ins0mniac
If you believe in your mind being a biological process of your brain, free will is an illusion as the internal structure and the external forces that modify that structure through your senses determines your mind and your decisions.

This is pretty much the arguement that gives rise to the clockwork universe idea, but it's impossible to know enough about the state of the universe and the forces acting within it to predict the future state from a current state.

From quantum mechanics, all particles in the universe travel every potential route until they are observed (the wave function that represents the particle is said to collapse when observed) and then the particle could be in any of the possible states, but some will be more probable than others.

What I'm trying to say is, that even if you know where a particle is now, you can't really say where it's going, the idea that everything is pre-ordained and mechanical simply isn't true and thus free will can exist, or at least isn't precluded by the nature of the universe.

[robotoverflow]

Originally posted by Ins0mniac
Just watch The Matrix Reloaded. It explorers these issues.
Not really. It may try to, though it doesn't go into any amount of depth that can be considered philosophical. Reloaded 'explores' (that wasn't a shot at your spelling) this topic about as well as any anime or manga does, which is to say in a very half-arsed manner.

(Take that, iaidoka :p)

[Ins0mniac]

Originally posted by still life
This is pretty much the arguement that gives rise to the clockwork universe idea, but it's impossible to know enough about the state of the universe and the forces acting within it to predict the future state from a current state.

From quantum mechanics, all particles in the universe travel every potential route until they are observed (the wave function that represents the particle is said to collapse when observed) and then the particle could be in any of the possible states, but some will be more probable than others.

What I'm trying to say is, that even if you know where a particle is now, you can't really say where it's going, the idea that everything is pre-ordained and mechanical simply isn't true and thus free will can exist, or at least isn't precluded by the nature of the universe.

Interesting. Thankyou for that insight.

[still life]

Originally posted by robotoverflow
Not really. It may try to, though it doesn't go into any amount of depth that can be considered philosophical. Reloaded 'explores' (that wasn't a shot at your spelling) this topic about as well as any anime or manga does, which is to say in a very half-arsed manner.

(Take that, iaidoka :p)

I disagree, there is definately anime out there that explores that nature of reality in some depth, a good series to see would be Serial Experiment : Lain. I'd also say evangelion touches on this area more than a a little.

but yeah, there's anime with people falling through magic doors into worlds with dragons too :D

[Fuzzy Dice]

two possibilities:

1)everything is predetermined, but since we lack the ability to look into the future, we have the illusion of free will.

2)we have free will and determinism is bunk.

personally, i'm inclined towards free will because i don't like the idea that i have no choice. Also, determinism seems to imply that there is a supreme deity(s) controlling everything - how else would there be a script for our lives? But, if everything is already decided, what would be the point?

Do we have any atheistic determinists here? how do you reconcile your views? I would be willing to concede the possibility of levels of destiny - but what levels? If anything is preordained, then almost everything else would have to be, wouldn't it?

Determinism gets harder and harder to believe the more you apply chemistry and physics to your view of the workings of the world (read - universe). Actually, from that point of view, it would have to be all or none - either everything is predetermined or nothing is, because as far as i can tell, chemical reactions occur at essentially random intervals - whenever appropriate molecules come in contact with each other under appropriate conditions, a reaction will occur. You might say that reactions proceed according to predetermined paths, but that's simply not true. Reactions proceed through physically allowable means and they can be interfered with.

I take back what I said about levels of predetermination. All or none. That's it.

[jambo]

Originally posted by rickbishop
Both.

You have free will to make decisions, but the rest of your life will be determined by those and subsequent decisions.

I disagree. If you make the same decision a thousand times, as long as all factors remain the same, the outcome of this decision will always be the same.

[jambo]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Dice
personally, i'm inclined towards free will because i don't like the idea that i have no choice.

You cant decide you believe in free-will just because you dont like the thought of determinism.

[Fuzzy Dice]

Originally posted by jambo
You cant decide you believe in free-will just because you dont like the thought of determinism.

why not? I felt that I'd justified myself adequately. And in answer to your earlier post, you can never reproduce all the factors surrounding a choice. The best you can do is a reasonable approximation. If you COULD reproduce them, then it's likely that your statement would be correct. But you can't. Moot point.

[scathing]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Dice
why not?

Because when you let personal preference get in the way of cognitive critical thinking, all credibility leaves your assertions.

"I think something's more likely because I don't like the alternatives" is the kind of head-in-the-sand mentality that is the hallmark of the childish / mentally feeble.

[Fuzzy Dice]

Originally posted by scathing
Because when you let personal preference get in the way of cognitive critical thinking, all credibility leaves your assertions.
"I think something's more likely because I don't like the alternatives" is the kind of head-in-the-sand mentality that is the hallmark of the childish / mentally feeble.

touche.

In this case my 'personal preference' happens to coincide with the answer i consider to be most likely. If you had a convincing argument to the contrary i would treat it as valid, wether or not i liked it.

[wolfpac181]

We have choice within our fabricated lives. Ying and yang

I know I'll never be a millionaire or superhero. I know I'll live equal, or lesser, than an average person. There's my predetermined area. But I do have choices within that; free willed.

Shit, I just roll with the punches.

[oracle]

Originally posted by jambo
I disagree. If you make the same decision a thousand times, as long as all factors remain the same, the outcome of this decision will always be the same. Ahh, yes... but how things turn out after the first time will affect how you might tackle the identical situation if it it ever arises again.

I should also mention that despite my above post, I don't believe in one or the other, but I am open to the possibility of either. Personally, I don't think we know enough about the universe and reality to make any kind of "informed" decision.

[pleed]

You cannot really say that if you make the same decision over and over again you will get the same result.
Other peoples decisions that also affect what happens to you and how your life turns out, and there are environmental factors.

Eg. If someone decides to shoot everyone you know in the head, then your life will be very different, based on the decison someone else has made. Also, take the farmers for instance, the drought has affected their life greatly, they didn't make the decison for that.

I think that free will is part of it, but nothing is pre determined.

[scathing]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Dice
In this case my 'personal preference' happens to coincide with the answer i consider to be most likely.

Fair enough. Its just that this isn't what you said. Originally you said "personally, i'm inclined towards free will because i don't like the idea that i have no choice.", which (at face value) says that your reasoning behind being inclined towards one was that you didn't like the corollary.

[scathing]

Originally posted by pleed
You cannot really say that if you make the same decision over and over again you will get the same result.
Other peoples decisions that also affect what happens to you and how your life turns out, and there are environmental factors.

Of course jambo can say that (given the pre-requisite).

Your second sentence means you're no longer talking about jambo's "all other factors remain the same" situation, so it irrelevant to the original assertion.