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Rescuers prep for hybrid car accidents [Archive] - ZGeek

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Bostonmess
05-05-2004, 07:53 AM
PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (AP) -- The growing popularity of hybrid vehicles poses a new danger for rescuers at accident scenes: a network of high-voltage circuitry that may require some precise cutting to save a trapped victim.

"You don't want to go crushing anything with hydraulic tools," said Samuel Caroluzzi, an assistant chief with the Norristown Fire Department outside Philadelphia. "It's enough to kill you from what they're telling us in training."

Hybrids draw power from two sources, typically a gas or diesel engine combined with an electric motor. The battery powering the electric motor carries as much as 500 volts, more than 40 times the strength of a standard battery.

That worries those who must cut into cars to rescue people inside.

"If you can't shut it down, you don't know where the high voltage is," said David Dalrymple, an emergency medical technician in New Brunswick, New Jersey.

Manufacturers have a list of safety checks that the car's computer must go through for the electrical system to run. They've published guides showing the location of the electric components; on the Toyota Prius and other hybrids, the high-power cables are colored bright orange to catch the eye of a rescue worker or a mechanic.

But there are concerns over what happens if something goes wrong and the battery, ignition and other points are inaccessible.

"It's the 'what-if' that worries me," said David Castiaux, an instructor for Mid-Del Technology Center in Del City, Oklahoma, who teaches rescue workers about hybrids.

Chris Peterson, a service training instructor for Toyota, said the Prius' electric system should shut down if anything goes wrong. "There should not be high voltage in those cables, but I'm not going to stand up and say there isn't," he said.

Rescuers are taught to disconnect the battery and turn off the key immediately before cutting into a car, but that's not always possible.

Concerns about hybrids are increasing in large part because of their growing popularity. Sales have risen at an average annual rate of 88.6 percent since 2000 and recent figures show the number of Americans driving them jumped more than 25 percent from 2002 to 2003.

The Honda Insight and the Toyota Prius are common now and more are on the way: hybrid versions of the Ford Escape, Honda Accord and Lexus SUV this year, and a Toyota Highlander in 2005.

The Alachua County Fire Rescue in Gainesville, Florida, even has two hybrids of its own. Although its crews haven't had to deal with a hybrid crash, they've been getting versed on what to do when it happens, said Cliff Chapman, assistant chief.

They know not to cut into a hybrid's doors -- that's where many of the cables are -- and to peel off the roof instead. They also now operate under the assumption that a car is energized, wearing rubber gloves and boots.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/05/04/hybrid.rescues.ap/index.html)

DumHed
08-05-2004, 05:11 PM
I can't really see them putting that many cables in the doors, I mean the door hinges at one end, so you can't run cables "through" it. You can only run the cables in and out from the same point.
Would they really run high voltage power cabling into the doors when it can't go anywhere useful?

That Bloke
08-05-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by DumHed
I can't really see them putting that many cables in the doors, I mean the door hinges at one end, so you can't run cables "through" it. You can only run the cables in and out from the same point.
Would they really run high voltage power cabling into the doors when it can't go anywhere useful?

I've seen the Honda & Toyota schematics & it appears that in both those cases the cables run through the transmission tunnel.

DumHed
08-05-2004, 06:24 PM
that's more like what I'd expect!

The usual place on most cars is through the sill panel area, just below the doors.

That Bloke
08-05-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by DumHed
that's more like what I'd expect!

The usual place on most cars is through the sill panel area, just below the doors.

Yeah, for low voltage stuff like tail lights...........some fwd cars now run even that wiring through the trans tunnel since the driveline nolonger occupies it.

DumHed
08-05-2004, 08:20 PM
well the only high voltage wiring on most cars is the ignition leads, and they don't need to travel the length of the car! :)

Bostonmess
08-05-2004, 08:46 PM
What voltage/ampage would stuff like PS2s, monitors, fridges etc be? They'd be dodgy if you cut one of their leads maybe?

That Bloke
09-05-2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by DumHed
well the only high voltage wiring on most cars is the ignition leads, and they don't need to travel the length of the car! :)

Although the voltage is low a "fully sik system" can kill you on account of the amps, it won't fry you as such but the rapid discharge could stop your heart.



Edit: Un-dyslexified

DumHed
09-05-2004, 02:17 AM
you need a fairly high voltage to push enough amps through your skin to kill you though.

Skin resistance is pretty high, so it generally takes 200+ volts to get more than about 30mA flowing, which is generally what is required to stop your heart.

PS2s, and any other household type device run in a car will need to be powered from an inverter - which steps up the car's 12VDC to 240VAC, and that can kill.
Car fridges, and most other gear runs from 12V so it's pretty safe.

It takes a very high powered audio amplifier to output enough voltage to be dangerous, but they can do it since most high power amplifiers basically have a built in inverter to provide an internal high voltage power supply.

Drakin
09-05-2004, 03:22 AM
Wouldn't you be more worried about cutting through a side airbag??

Bostonmess
09-05-2004, 04:53 AM
Hey buddy! Leave the wife outta this! :D

I dunno, I know airbags can kill kids when they go off, but I wouldn't have a thought a fireman in full gear (stop drooling ladies :)) would be that bothered by it?

I don't know what sort of pressure is in the cannisters (if that's how they work) that inflate the bags but I wouldn't have thought it would be enough to worry about? Maybe it will just blow the face off the person being rescued? :D

tikdoph
09-05-2004, 05:06 AM
It's so ironic that something like an airbag, which is designed to save lives, can end up taking them.

It'd also be a shame if people didn't buy hybrid cars because of these electrical safety concerns. Try to save the environment and find that in the case of an accident you can't be rescued in a hurry because of the electrocution risks for rescuers. Just hope that you're not bleeding profusely internally.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

DumHed
09-05-2004, 01:10 PM
I think they're probably over reacting to the electrical risks involved.

BTW - Airbags are not triggered by a stored pressure canister, it's actually an explosive charge.

They're pretty well protected, but it would probably be quite possible to be injured by cutting through one.

The "jaws of life" type tools are unlikely to set off an explosive compared to any sort of grinder, but it's still possible.

skrappy
09-05-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Bostonmess
What voltage/ampage would stuff like PS2s, monitors, fridges etc be? They'd be dodgy if you cut one of their leads maybe?

How unthoughtfull that would be of them...

I mean if I crashed I sure as hell would be pissed off if they cut my PS2 wire..... WHAT WOULD I DO?!?! I spose id have to settle for my gameboy or something instead....

How boring would it be if you crashed and didnt have a PS2 to play whilst trapped....


:p

That Bloke
09-05-2004, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by DumHed
I think they're probably over reacting to the electrical risks involved.

BTW - Airbags are not triggered by a stored pressure canister, it's actually an explosive charge.



Yep, in another of those ironies, airbags which are meant to save lives could never exist if it weren't for the solid rocket motors used to propel intercontinental ballistic missiles(which take many lives).