Why Formula 1 is crap#107

[and3w]

I used to love watching F1 but it has become so fucking boring that all I watch now is Monaco...at least there it is possible for someone other than Schitmacher to win. I like the crashes, thats about it really.
An interesting article about possible reasons why is here (http://sport.guardian.co.uk/formulaone/story/0,10069,1258179,00.html) and it makes sense to me.

'The balance between art and science has been lost'

Formula one racing used to be about the thrill of drivers pitting their skills against each other on challenging circuits. But one man's obsession with money, chiefly for himself, above spectacle has left the sport barren

Once upon a time grand prix racing stood for glamour, risk and thrills. Its heroes were men of courage and style who drove into the mouth of danger without flinching. No one knew or cared how much they were paid. What they did had no need of PR-driven hype in order to attract crowds. Their fans were happy to sit in long queues on their way to the circuit and stand for hours on muddy banks as long as they knew that they were going to see something that could justifiably call itself a grand prix. That is no longer the case."

[bassbogan]

Unfortunately this will happen to every single sport that is followed by a reasonable % of the population. Footy is heading that way, soccer is already like it even swimming for christ sakes.

Everything is now just a question of 'whats in it for me?', 'how much money can i make out of it?'. Business and corporations are the apocalypse of everything we hold dear.

[V_Max]

It's still about drivers pitting their skills against each other - unfortunately many people simply fail to appreciate the skills that are on display.

As for "one man's obsession with money", it has brought F1 to the attention of a vast audience, whereas before it was watched in person by anoraks, and on TV by nobody because the sport could not promote itself adequately.

Having read the article, it seems that the author, despite clearly having done his research, has managed to still have no idea what he's talking about.

[and3w]

Originally posted by V_Max
It's still about drivers pitting their skills against each other - unfortunately many people simply fail to appreciate the skills that are on display.

As for "one man's obsession with money", it has brought F1 to the attention of a vast audience, whereas before it was watched in person by anoraks, and on TV by nobody because the sport could not promote itself adequately.

Having read the article, it seems that the author, despite clearly having done his research, has managed to still have no idea what he's talking about.

I can't agree. Once you had at least 3 or 4 drivers who were in the running each year.. now it's just schumacher. Are you seriously saying he is *that* much better than everyone else?
I don't agree with every word of the article but someone is doing something very wrong when the same person wins every race. It is supposed to be a test of a drivers skill, not the car or the track. And F1 has been watched by people without anoraks for 20 or 30 years with skill (and luck, and reliability) being the exitement.

[V_Max]

F1 is supposed to be a test of car and driver - if it wasn't, they'd all be driving identical cars. Ever watched an F3000 race? No. Why? Because it's the dullest thing you've ever seen - and they all drive identical cars, with plenty of downforce and horsepower, and the drivers are all very good.

Schumacher is better than the others, but not so much in terms of speed over a single lap, it's the fact that he can work so effectively with his team in testing to develop the car, and in races to pull out the required speed at the precise moment it's needed, and not push too hard when it isn't. Look at the French Grand Prix last weekend - that was edge-of-the-seat exciting, I thought - an amazing strategy, that needed a string of 10-15 flat out qualifying-style laps to make it work. So Schuey just went off and did it. Stunning.

The problem here is simply that Schumacher is the best driver, and he's driving a car which is certainly not significantly worse than any other at any given moment. There are times when another team has been slightly quicker - Renault last weekend, BAR on occasion, Williams in Malaysia - but nobody has that same consistency, and that's why Schumacher is winning every race. To me, that doesn't make it dull, but I understand that to others it does. However, the solution isn't in messing with the rules, or anything like that. It's in allowing the other teams some time to catch up, which they surely will.

[STallingU]

I agree with v_max. It's not like schu wins every race by heaps like he did in melbourne. He just looks after his car better during the race so he can push it when required and not worry aboput it blowing up on him near the end of the race. Off the track he is one of the last to leave the garage to help the engineers make all the small adjustments to his car.

That article was saying that the teams who spend the most money win the most races.
Look at Toyota. They have the second highest budget behind ferarri and they are at the back of the grid. I don't even think toyota have even been on the podium.

Next year Fiat (I think its fiat) are going to chop ferarris budget alot because it spending way more than it is bringing in.

All is good also for next year when Mark Webber should be in a Williams and he'll knock M Schu off his thrown.

[King_Crud]

the thing is they need to change the rules to make the cars more exciting. After watching the British race last night I thought that, as usual, Ferrari and Schumacher did a great job with the strategy as always. But F1 needs to take out refuelling. Schumacher always wins on great strategy, last night he sat back in fourth waiting for the others to have pit stops because he knew he was fast enough to bang in some fast laps and then have the lead after his stop. I'd rather see them take out refuelling so he has to overtake those three cars ahead on the track. I haven't seen him overtake on the track for a while, let alone three cars.

There are other things that need to be changed with F1, not to make it Schumacher proof, but to make it more entertaining. If not, the sport will implode on itself.

[flow]

Most if not all of Ferrari's budget is from the sponsers - NOT fiat. Fiat is finacially stuffed.

Regardless - Ferrari is unstopable this season. Good on them. Enough $$$ can win anything.

Roll on next year. Webber in BMW. I'll buy some F1 clothing for the first time in 4 years since my Jordan stupidity.

[King_Crud]

Originally posted by flow_aus
I'll buy some F1 clothing for the first time in 4 years since my Jordan stupidity.

Haha., I've got a heap of Jordan stuff from the glory days. They're still the team i follow but I'm hoping these middle eastern fellas will buy the team and Eddie will leave, a bit like taking a sick dog to get put down. Then i can be free to get a new dog.

[Deimos]

I kind of agree with both sides here. F1 has been slowed down a bit and made a little less "raw" by new rules making things a lot safer, but I don't necessarily think this is such a bad thing. I'm sure there are lots of people out there who don't get as excited by F1 nowadays because the thrill and danger has been lessened by improved safety, but I think there are a far greater number of people who would be kind of turned off by the sport if the number of fatalities and serious injuries were to dramatically increase. I guess if all you're interested in is the crashes then perhaps you might think F1 is going down the gurgler, but personally I enjoy watching it for the strategy, the precision driving and mechanics and the teamwork much more so than the crashes.

As far as Schumaker winning all the races, I genuinely think it is because he is simply an extraordinarily talented, hardworking, dedicated driver. I don't think you'll find many people complaining that Tiger Woods has made golf boring (and I won't say that it's because golf was boring to begin with), or that Ian Thorpe has made swimming boring.

Yes there is now a lot of money in F1, but I don't think that is necessarily such a bad thing - if there are more people excited in it there will be more money and then there will be more money spent on creating better cars. That's just my 2c.

[108]

Originally posted by Deimos
I kind of agree with both sides here. F1 has been slowed down a bit and made a little less "raw" by new rules making things a lot safer, but I don't necessarily think this is such a bad thing.

Have to disagree with you there. Though there are more and more regulations slowing down the cars, the fact is, the engineers work their way around them and as a result, F1 faster than ever (don't quote me on that :p).

The reason that I'm not as thrilled by F1 these days isn't because of the lack of crashing it's the lack of racing at the front. If I wanted to look at strategy and lap times, I'd just watch qualifying. Sure there are some good fights in the midfield (watching Webber hold off Massa and Alonso in a slower car at Silverstone was great), but up front is what counts.

The problem isn't Schey dominating, it's Ferrari's 1-2 policy. Although I was't a spectator then, in the late 80's McLaren apparently dominated the championship as Ferrari do now. The battles between Senna and Prost in the two McLarens are legendary.

Fuck Rubens, and fuck Ferrari. Fuck em right in the ass. :mad:

That said, this season hasn't been too bad.

[V_Max]

Ferrari don't have a 1-2 "policy", they have a driver who, over a race distance, is significantly quicker and more consistent than his teammate. The battles between Senna and Prost happened because the two drivers were racing each other on merit. That doesn't happen very often at Ferrari these days, I've nothing against Rubens but I doubt many people would argue that he's the equal of Schumacher.

[ashet]

bring back all the bells and whistles, let them make a car with only some BASIC requirements, the rest is free for all. only then will we see a real race, if they keep going down the path with regulations design limitations, you might as well merge F1 and indy cars.

[sapience]

somebody has to be best, no matter what it is. who ever it would happen to be, you would all be bitching at him. It's more jealousy than anything - human nature.

schumacher doesn't just win races, he helps out to design cars, tests them and works along side the engineers.

f1 is his life and he has worked hard to get where he is, i'm not a supporter of ferrari (im a mclaren mercedes man). he has worked for what he wanted and he has got it. let him break records, i admire that. although time will get the better of him.

take other sports like snooker - steve davis and steven hendry, world time champions and record breakers of the sport - but now look at them, davis is a presenter and hendry is struggling to qualify half the time.

now matter how good or young you are, there is always somebody who can do it twice as fast twice as good and is younger than you. its just a matter of time.

[STallingU]

Originally posted by 108
Have to disagree with you there. Though there are more and more regulations slowing down the cars, the fact is, the engineers work their way around them and as a result, F1 faster than ever (don't quote me on that :p).

F1 is upto 3secs a lap quicker this year compared to last year mainly because of the tire war.

Originally posted by V_Max
Ferrari don't have a 1-2 "policy", they have a driver who, over a race distance, is significantly quicker and more consistent than his teammate.

Ferrari do have a 1-2 policy. Look at the US GP. Rubens was quicker than M Schu
all weekend. But as soon as the saftey car came in M Schu flew straight past Rubens like he was standing still. An obvious order from pit lane. Then the rest of the race Rubens was sitting on M Schu's arse not even trying to over take him.
I've got nothing against M Schu. But ferrari are taking the joy out of it with team orders like that.
Other than team orders every now and then I recon F1 is great.

Hopefuly the B spec mclaren will challenge ferrari. It looks alot quicker than the old one. But most of all williams (my team) finds some pace from their car.

[V_Max]

Originally posted by STallingU
Ferrari do have a 1-2 policy. Look at the US GP. Rubens was quicker than M Schu all weekend. But as soon as the saftey car came in M Schu flew straight past Rubens like he was standing still. An obvious order from pit lane. Then the rest of the race Rubens was sitting on M Schu's arse not even trying to over take him.The fact that Rubens is just not very good at restarts obviously has nothing to do with it :rolleyes:
Apart from that, one might like to consider that Schumacher had his car set up for straightline speed rather than the optimal lap time for precisely that reason (which also explains why Rubens was quicker), and of course he had an absolute monster of a tow off the back of RB's car. But that's OK, you just tell yourself it's team orders. Perhaps Ferrari ought to hire you and sack that Jean Todt idiot, they'd win by even further if you ran the show...
</rant>
Sorry, people who say things like that without knowing or considering all the facts just piss me off.

[sagit]

Originally posted by and3w
I used to love watching F1 but it has become so fucking boring that all I watch now is Monaco......

"These fucking cars are just going round and round and round. Its soooooo fucking boring"

"Yes Murray. I couldnt agree with you more"

("Wired World of Sports" by 12th Man)

:D

[STallingU]

Originally posted by V_Max
The fact that Rubens is just not very good at restarts obviously has nothing to do with it :rolleyes:
Apart from that, one might like to consider that Schumacher had his car set up for straightline speed rather than the optimal lap time for precisely that reason (which also explains why Rubens was quicker), and of course he had an absolute monster of a tow off the back of RB's car. But that's OK, you just tell yourself it's team orders. Perhaps Ferrari ought to hire you and sack that Jean Todt idiot, they'd win by even further if you ran the show...
</rant>
Sorry, people who say things like that without knowing or considering all the facts just piss me off.

Ooo bit of a touchy subject for you now is it.

Next your gonna say it was Montoya's fault for running into the back Of M Schu at monaco and it wasn't just a racing incident.

So since you seem to know everything technical about the inside workings of ferrari. What about the tire mix up with rubens tires when he was beating M Schu?

It all just seems to be abit strange that when ever rubens is winning, something always seems to happen to him so M Schu beats him.

[V_Max]

The Monaco incident could go either way, it's a matter of opinion I think - I can give you reasons why it's JPM's fault, reasons why it's MS's fault, or reasons why they both fucked up.

Which race are you referring to with the "tyre mixup"?

I've never claimed to know about the inner workings of Ferrari, I only take note of facts that are presented and draw my conclusions from all available evidence, rather than "OMG Rubens keeps getting beaten Ferrari are bastards!"

[Ic3]

Originally posted by sagit
"These fucking cars are just going round and round and round. Its soooooo fucking boring"

"Yes Murray. I couldnt agree with you more"

("Wired World of Sports" by 12th Man)

:D

Try watching Nascar. I was forced to watch it once when they literally go around in circles. I have never been so bored in my entire life!

[STallingU]

I can't remember which race it was but it was this year. They brought out MS' tyres instead of RB' so when RB left the pits MS was leading the race.

The only thing I have against Ferrari is the things that happen to rubens. Because I can't see why they can't be happy with a 1-2 finish in any order. Other than that I praise them for the great job they have done.

[sagit]

Originally posted by Ic32k1
Try watching Nascar. I was forced to watch it once when they literally go around in circles. I have never been so bored in my entire life!

I have. its like Scalextric.

[V_Max]

Originally posted by STallingU
I can't remember which race it was but it was this year. They brought out MS' tyres instead of RB' so when RB left the pits MS was leading the race. The only time I can see that anything like that has happened this year was the Spanish GP, and Schumacher was already well established in the lead by RB's second stop.

[DJos]

The most exciting F1 "Era" ever, was the turbo days. even the not so competive teams were fun to watch in qualifying - Screw the one engine per weekend rule let the teams have 2, a Qualifing engine and a race engine!

I luved watching the drivers, especially Senna, qualifing with an engine boosted almost to destruction that lasted for 5 laps - That was exciting. eg Senna on the absolute limit in a car with way more power than grip, that was awesome!

I also agree with the michellin idea of severly reducing the number of tyre sets available to the teams for testing and race weekends - the current F1 cars would be imo quite spectacular on much harder tyres - it would really sort the men from the boys.

[STallingU]

Originally posted by V_Max
The only time I can see that anything like that has happened this year was the Spanish GP, and Schumacher was already well established in the lead by RB's second stop.

Rubens was about 6 to 7 seconds in front before they both had there pit stop.

[V_Max]

In the Spanish GP, or in the race you're thinking of? In the Spanish GP Rubens was in front when he made his stop, but that's because MS had already made his own - the stop isn't what cost him the race.

[STallingU]

Originally posted by V_Max
In the Spanish GP, or in the race you're thinking of? In the Spanish GP Rubens was in front when he made his stop, but that's because MS had already made his own - the stop isn't what cost him the race.

But before MS had stopped RB was in front of him by 6-7 seconds. After MS had stopped RB was infront by about 32s when the average should of been about 25s. But then they stuffed his tyres up which cost him about 4-5s. But MS did his usual fast in and out lap which made those extra seconds up to over take him.

[V_Max]

Originally posted by V_Max
In the Spanish GP, or in the race you're thinking of?

[108]

Ferrari may not have a flat out 1-2 policy, but Rubens inadequacy is kinda like an indirect 1-2 policy. A good/mediocre driver in a great car will get consistent results, and a consistent stream of points. An excellent driver in that same car will get consistant results, and easily eclipse the other driver. Why not just get two excellent drivers? Because they will clash, and compete against each other for the win.

Granted, when Rubens is in position (before the last pistop no fight rule) he has some tries for the lead, but too often, he just fades away as Schuey dominates.

Of course this is good for Scumacher's drivers championship points, and it's good for the Ferrari constructors championship. It's just not good for the spectators.

[polite]

I try to simplify things. I am quite sure that this thread would never have been started had Jensen Button won 10 in a row.:)

[108]

Originally posted by polite
I try to simplify things. I am quite sure that this thread would never have been started had Mark Webber won 10 in a row.:)
:p

[STallingU]

Originally posted by V_Max


Well there was only one time this year were it happened and you said it happened in the spanish gp so it must be the spanish gp.

[polite]

108, you have made the mistake of thinking that I give a fuck about F1.I used to like watching Senna in the wet, the rest just passed me by.I like reading the stories about Fangio and Nuvolari, but Schumacher leaves me cold.I can of course appreciate his skill which is vast, but all it has done is to lessen the passion and the intrigue which was was attraction of Formula 1.Can you get that?:cool:

[VangaloRR]

If you want to talk about MS's doimination of the sport vs his skill level just watch a race in the wet.

We havent had a good wet race for awhile now (I think Brazil was the last really wet race but MS crashed out, that may be two year ago, cant remember). But when we do you can watch MS piss all over the competition, I swear he could beat everyone on the road even in a reliable Minardi, though theres no such thing as a reliable minardi :)

[V_Max]

STallingU - OK, I was mistakenly thinking he had a problem at the first stop in the Spanish GP, but actually it was the second - so what I said previously was wrong (that he made his stop from in front).
Barrichello had two slow stops this year that I'm aware of (slower than they should be given the amount of fuel, that is). One was in Spain, on lap 43, when his mechanics weren't ready for him. However, he pitted from 2nd behind Schumacher. So clearly that's not the one you're thinking of.
The other was in Bahrain, where he pitted from ahead of Schumacher (who had come in the lap before), and his car appeared to stall as he left the box, but the order before and after the first round of stops was the same, Schumacher P1, Barrichello P2.
So those are the only two slow stops this year that I know of - certainly the only two involving a change of position with his teammate. Neither of them remotely fit the situation you describe.

[STallingU]

Well I'm so sorry for wasting your time. Obviously it never happened. So the next time something happens to Rubens when he is leading I'll turn a blinde eye and pretend it never happened.

[V_Max]

Well, I certainly can't find any record of it, if it did happen I'd like to know because as I said earlier I try to take all facts into account before making my judgement - so if new facts come to light I may be inclined to change my opinion. But I've just spent an hour looking at the lap charts and commentary from every race this season and I simply can't find anything that sounds like what you're saying. Perhaps you're remembering wrong, or it was actually last year or something? As I said, if it happened, I am genuinely interested, I just can't see when it could have.

[STallingU]

Try the canadian. Because it did happen this year. Even the commentators said something about it. They said that ferrari brought in a system a couple of years ago that there was no way they could bring out the wrong tyres. They brought the new system in because it happened to irvine in a race. Even they said something about ferrari doing it on purpose to let michael win.

[V_Max]

Now that you mention it, I do remember the commentators saying that, but I'll be damned if I can remember when or where it was :(

Canadian GP wouldn't appear to have been it, total time in the pitlane for the Ferraris were at their stops was:
Lap 18 - Rubens Barrichello, 26.946sec (pitting from P2)
Lap 19 - Michael Schumacher, 28.169sec (pitting from P1)
Lap 44 - Rubens Barrichello, 27.537sec (pitting from P2)
Lap 47 - Michael Schumacher, 26.565sec (pitting from P1)

No slow stops there really, MS had a faster one than both of RB's, but his other stop was slower than both of RB's for a total time in the pitlane ever-so-slightly higher than RB.

I'm getting all this stuff from www.formula1.com just in case anybody is thinking I'm geekish enough to remember pitstop times to three decimal places ;)

[STallingU]

If you find out which one it was let me know and I'll do the same.

[V_Max]

OK, here's a list of every Ferrari pitstop in every race this year.

Format is:
Driver LapNo Time (In/Out, Teammate)

The (In/Out, Teammate) bit makes my head hurt so I've only done it for the first two races, I might fill in the rest later if I get seriously keen but they're a bit hard to read off lapcharts with complete accuracy.

Australia

RB 11 21.737 (2/2, 1)
MS 12 22.930 (1/1, 2)
RB 29 20.889 (2/2, 1)
MS 30 20.919 (1/1, 2)
RB 44 20.958 (2/2, 1)
MS 45 21.321 (1/1, 2)

Malaysia

MS 09 26.339 (1/7, 4)
RB 10 28.085 (4/7, 7)
MS 26 26.214 (1/2, 5)
RB 28 26.011 (1/5, 2)
MS 40 25.532 (1/1, 5)
RB 44 24.921 (2/4, 1)

Bahrain

MS 09 26.629
RB 10 32.668
MS 24 27.443
RB 27 26.482
MS 41 26.862
RB 43 25.977

San Marino

RB 10 24.230
MS 11 24.371
MS 27 24.402
RB 28 23.933
RB 43 24.872
MS 46 23.946

Spain

MS 10 22.068
RB 17 24.755
MS 25 23.141
RB 43 27.180
MS 45 23.870

Monaco

RB 20 26.511
MS 26 26.936
RB 55 23.856

Europe

MS 08 25.178
RB 15 26.067
MS 28 24.870
RB 38 26.588
MS 44 24.945

Canada

RB 18 26.946
MS 19 28.169
RB 44 27.537
MS 47 26.565

USA

MS 11 23.774
RB 11 28.859
MS 42 26.625
RB 50 23.856

France

MS 11 20.443
RB 12 20.675
MS 29 19.425
RB 31 20.279
MS 42 19.641
RB 51 20.529
MS 58 19.036

Great Britain

RB 09 23.380
MS 15 24.277
RB 28 21.489
MS 37 24.692
RB 41 22.884

I wrote a big long analysis here but a dodgy timeout ate it :(