Software Piracy: Do you consider it theft?

[gaLdaB]

I got this message in my rep comments after giving - rep out to someone for asking for a copy of a game.

I buy games after i test them out .. if they dont run on my pc why should i buy it in the first place! so get it right before dereppin someone .. fuck im not a tightarse and i do buy my games so go STFU!

Why is Piracy not considered theft by alot of people? No wonder so many companys are folding. Am I wrong to derep someone who wants to steal from me? Do people really get a copy, play it, like it and then go buy? Why would you if you had the full game right there anyway?

What do you think? Are you stealing if you copy a game?

And Shez - Buy them from EB where you have 7 days to take them back if you don't like them or they don't work. You steal a game I have made and my kids go hungry. You might as well just come around to my house and take some other stuff that takes your fancy. Would you come and work for me for free? I don't think so, so why should I do it for you?

[dwarfthrower]

Of course it's theft. It's just that it's a very easy theft for people to dismiss as being fairly harmless... I mean software is produced by multinational companies, not by people like you and me that have families to feed or anything. Also the fact that the software is replicated (as opposed to removed from somebody else's posession) lets people think that they're not really "stealing" something, just "copying" it.

As for downloading games to "try them out"... I'm not sure why people think that it's OK to do that with software. If you stole a TV with the intention of "just trying it out before buying it", how ridiculous would that sound?

[BlueBoy]

EB (in Victoria at least) don't have the 7 day return policy anymore.

[ajcrowley]

i buy all my software now, used to copy when i was a student but now that i can afford to pay for it i do. i know thats not an excuse but for IT students who often need development software at home to complete their degrees they have little alternative. Games on the other hand dont fall into that area of essential software.

[BlueBoy]

The piracy industry has grown out of the gaming industry's need for huge profit margins.

Then there's the fact that games tend to be a lot more expensive over here than in the States. Gameboy games for instance have 100% markup.

Games that are sure to be big movers, like Tribes or Halo 2, don't need to be $100 a pop. Drop the price down to $70-80 then as well as making hardcore 'first day' purchasers happy, you'll rope in those people that thought "Nice game. Too damn expensive."

[locust]

It's not "theft," it's "copyright violation."

That doesn't make it right. But please use the correct language.

[dwarfthrower]

The piracy industry has grown out of the gaming industry's need for huge profit margins.
I'd say the reverse is true. The huge markup now is to cover the losses incurred due to rampant piracy.

Then there's the fact that games tend to be a lot more expensive over here than in the States. Gameboy games for instance have 100% markup.
Any markup here is a mostly a result of the distributors / retailers, as well as shipping costs etc. Regardless, price disparity is not an excuse for stealing. Games are hardly an essential item, certainly not the god-given right some people seem to view them as.

Games that are sure to be big movers, like Tribes or Halo 2, don't need to be $100 a pop. Drop the price down to $70-80 then as well as making hardcore 'first day' purchasers happy, you'll rope in those people that thought "Nice game. Too damn expensive."
Agreed, good strategy. Don't think it would work in too many cases. If someone is prepared to steal a $100.00 game, then they're probably prepared to steal a $70.00 one.

[dwarfthrower]

It's not "theft," it's "copyright violation."

I disagree... It's the theft of somebody else's intellectual property for your own benefit. As opposed to the use of somebody else's work in a work you're claiming as your own.

[lostreality]

http://www.inkstains.com/art/2002-cartoons/2002_06_JUN/2002-06-27-stealing.gif

[The Avatar]

BULL FUCKING SHIT!!!

Look, before I start, I would just like to say that I am a freelance game programmer. I have also been doing it for around 20 years.
Software piracy is a good thing. Im sick of huge companies charging extra at my expese because they made only 7.1 million dollars on a game that cost the $500,000 to produce when they "think" they could have made 11.5 million. Wankers.
You know that the big software companies could still turn a huge profit if they charged $20 for a new release game. But what do they charge? Its usually around the $90 mark for a new release. And what is the excuse for this huge cost:
"Uhh, well we have to include a surchage for the software piracy, which cuts our profits."
So the people who do the right thing and go out there and buy their games get slugged extra for something they didnt do. Basically this means you now have the right to pirate software, because you PAID for that FUCKING right. And they have been doing this since the 80's when "piracy" was lending a disk to a friend so they could make a copy of it. Before the days of P2P, before piracy really became big. All I can say is that they deserve all the piracy they get, the pricks get what they deserve.


So, this by itself wouldnt make me pirate games, but:

Software is pushed out at an alarming rate, simply to get it on the shelves as fast as possible. Many games are released with so many bugs in the they are not even worth getting. Version 1.14 patch my ass.
The prices just keep getting higher and higher!
They spend a fuckload of money on anti-copy protection. If I buy software I HAVE THE FUCKING RIGHT TO BACK IT UP.
Big companies have been making the same games (but with improved graphics) for 10 years. Get a new idea dickheads.


I used to buy all my games legit. Then I got sick of forking over my money for something I DIDNT DO IN THE FIRST PLACE. Now I pirate everything, if I like, and I have the money: I go out and buy it.
All my own software is open source, anyone wants to pick at it they can. When I do get off my ass and make a comercial release, it will not be open source, but it will not cost $90! I have already worked out the math on it and I will make heaps if I just charge $5 for it. I sickens me though that people shopping look at the price and equate more cost with more quality in a game. I have found better games in the discount bin then on the new release shelves.

[Zan]

My friend midg3t had an interesting rant (http://web.midg3t.net/weblog/70/) about the word 'theft'. I agree that something pirated deprives the developers (and the middlemen) from a return, especially when there are something like 10 000 people downloading the game as soon as it is released, resulting in some massive instant loss of revenue for the releasing company:

image removed. I couldn't see it, and posted the wrong one. Oopsies.

Personally, I think it's important to use the correct words. Copyright infringement is the correct term to describe the practice of making a copy of a piece of intellectual property without compensating the copyright holder in some way, such as paying for a licence. Theft is where something is taken from someone, and they don't have it anymore. The only way a copyright could be 'stolen' would be if someone broke into the place where the copyright document was held, and without the holder's permission transferred ownership into the thief's name. That would be copyright theft.

People use the argument 'you just don't call it theft because you are trying to make it look like less of a heinous act'. Ah, that's right. All those people who infringe copyrights are simply trying to spread a euphemism around because they can't stand being called a thief. This isn't correct for the larger majority. I know what I'm doing wrong, and I'm willing to admit that my actions are resulting in a lack of profit, or even loss for some companies. However, I don't believe that my actions should be described with such an emotive, and ultimately incorrect, word.

[BlueBoy]

I'd say the reverse is true. The huge markup now is to cover the losses incurred due to rampant piracy.
I'd say the huge markup is there just because they can do it. The game industry has annual profits that exceed the film industry. They aren't struggling (as much as they'd like us to think.)


Any markup here is a mostly a result of the distributors / retailers, as well as shipping costs etc. Regardless, price disparity is not an excuse for stealing. Games are hardly an essential item, certainly not the god-given right some people seem to view them as.
True. But there needs to be some responsibility from the industry in regards to the product. Firstly they need to release a game when it's finished, not before. Christmas is the worst time for this. They should also release demos of the game prior to it's release. Not after.


Agreed, good strategy. Don't think it would work in too many cases. If someone is prepared to steal a $100.00 game, then they're probably prepared to steal a $70.00 one.
There will always be a pirate market. They've been around for centurys. Some people just hate paying for anything. Whats happening now though is that potential customers are being pushed into piracy because of the rising cost of games.

[sapience]

nothing wrong with copying stuff, only suckers buy that software, its only going to be updated next year anyway

[ajcrowley]

i think theft is still the right word, it was used long before software piracy ever became an issue. the end result is effectively the same, your depriving someone of something that is rightfully theirs, the fact that it is the profits from a lost sale rather than a physical item from a shop makes no difference. copyright infringement amounts to theft the fact that you dont have to remove something from a shop does not make it any less a crime.

[dwarfthrower]

Not only what ajcrowley said, but games companies don't actually have any obligation to provide people with games (at a fair price or otherwise). Just because they don't always do the right thing doesn't give anybody the right to rip them off.

[Al]

Yeah, it's theft, but they've got dick all chance of catching us... The reason I don't do things that are illegal is i'll get caught and of course my morals.

I don't see the harm in pirating software. I play that few games anyway it's not something that bothers me. Yeah it's wrong and all that, but I just don't care.

[BlueBoy]

Not only what ajcrowley said, but games companies don't actually have any obligation to provide people with games (at a fair price or otherwise). Just because they don't always do the right thing doesn't give anybody the right to rip them off.
A game company has no obligation to produce games? You might want to run that by the board members and shareholders.

What would they be doing otherwise? Making cheese?

[The Avatar]

No. I have had to many bad experiences with shit-house video games that everyone says is great.

[BlueBoy]

A lot of valid points.

I guess the other quetion is, would people who are copying these games buy them anyway if there was no option to copy them?
When you say 'people' you're actually referring ot a fairly wide group.

There's those who will pirate no matter what.
Those who pirate because they're too poor to purchase.
Those who pirate because they like to try before they buy.

I'm sure there's more.

[ajcrowley]

A game company has no obligation to produce games? You might want to run that by the board members and shareholders.

What would they be doing otherwise? Making cheese?


no obligation to produce games they are not going to be paid for

i wonder how many people would turn up to work if their respective employeers decided they no longer wanted to pay them, seems fair to me, if they are not going to get paid for their products then why pay anyone to make them

[The Avatar]

no obligation to produce games they are not going to be paid for

i wonder how many people would turn up to work if their respective employeers decided they no longer wanted to pay them, seems fair to me, if they are not going to get paid for their products then why pay anyone to make them

Why is it that people believe that piracy actually harms the bottom line??

If 80% of the consumer market pirated games and did not purchase them, the big comercial comapnies would still be in the black by a couple of million. And WTF???!!! Since when do programmers get a fucking pirates share of the profits?
I work at woolworths, when somebody steals something that DIRECTLY effects my salary(edit: that was a sarcastic rant).

Programmers get paid a flat rate NO MATTER what the income of the game. Big companies are STEALING from the programmers by not paying them a direct percentage of the profit.

Maybe if that was happening your argument of stealing from the 'poor downtrodden programmers and their poor, poor kids' would be valid. But they get paid no matter what.

[ajcrowley]

bollox, just because they make a huge profit that does not justify it.
Profit is everything, they are not in it for charity, your argument is that they make too much money, I agree they do but that does not make it open season on them they are entitled to make huge profits, its not public service.
Does it directly affect the people at the lower end of the company; of course it does, read the papers, look at the salaries of the top execs getting huge pay raises while hundreds are made redundant due to a fuck up the exec probably caused in the first place. How much does a company need to make until its ok to rip them off?
as for programmers getting a flat rate, that's not true for all, most programmers I know get shares in the company and profit related bonuses so yes it hits them directly as well.

[The Avatar]

bollox, just because they make a huge profit that does not justify it.
Profit is everything, they are not in it for charity, your argument is that they make too much money, I agree they do but that does not make it open season on them they are entitled to make huge profits, its not public service.
Does it directly affect the people at the lower end of the company; of course it does, read the papers, look at the salaries of the top execs getting huge pay raises while hundreds are made redundant due to a fuck up the exec probably caused in the first place. How much does a company need to make until its ok to rip them off?
as for programmers getting a flat rate, that's not true for all, most programmers I know get shares in the company and profit related bonuses so yes it hits them directly as well.

Yeah, you keep toting that line. The companies like BLIZZARD or SIERRA release shit-house games and get millions in revenue, and while freelance game designer that have GREAT games are fucked over, you keep giving all your money to the companies. THATS FAIR huh???!!

Oh and workers getting laid of or being made redundant at the expense of a top level EXEC has NOTHING to do with piracy. So dont try to associate them.

Big companies that make billion per year SHOULD justify their revenue. Top level EXEC no matter who they are or what they do DO NOT DESERVE a 13 million dollar bonus at the end of the year. Its a fucked up situation I know, but it has NOTHING to do with software priacy of people stealing from companies. A big company steals from it employees by not paying them what they deserve. And they can get away with it, without having to justify it to anyone.

Yet the average geek who steals a $50 game by pirating it goes to jail, is scum of the earth, supports terroism. Get fucked.

[Al]

I pirate games because I like 'em but don't really feel like I get $100 worth of fun out of them... If I really like a game I buy it because it's worth it.

Now I've decided to go buy Rome: Total War, loved shogun... Anyone got any comments either way?

[Lurgen]

People need to stop differentiating between the Internet/computers/software and the "real world". Having such a difference is the root cause of most of this confusion. This is an issue that I've been arguing a lot lately at Uni in my ethics subject (which is shithouse by the way, they have NFI).

When cars were first introduced, we didn't introduce new laws for them (other than traffic laws, which are pretty obviously needed). You kill a person with a car, and it's pre-meditated, that's homicide. Vehicular homicide, but still homicide. It's still murder, yes? You steal using a car, that's still theft. Even if you are in the car when you carry out the crime.

Yet we have all these stupid laws that complicate ownership, property, etc when it's digital and expect people to be able to follow what's really going on.

Software is recognised as property. You create a program, you sell it, it's property. We acknowledge ownership of this property, and always have - books are a great example of this, as is music, poetry, etc. Downloading a piece of software is theft, plain and simple. It isn't piracy, nor is it some form of electronic fraud - it's theft, just like taking it off the shelf.

If we stop considering the electronic world to be virtual, and start looking at it the way we look at everything else things suddenly get a lot easier. Harassment online is just plain harassment. Bulletin boards, emails and forums are just the same as their "real world" counterparts, being (surprise surprise) physical bulletin boards, letters and groups of people talking. So they write the stuff down. So it reaches a lot of people. We didn't need to put a whole bunch of laws around who can board an aircraft did we? Planes reach a lot of people. They have the ability to greatly change the way the world works. But we don't - you can board a plane, fly somewhere, and that's that. Just because it reaches a lot of people doesn't mean it is different.

Books printed on printing presses are treated no differently to books hand-written by monks (other than the hand-written ones being more expensive, and cool).

Our lawmakers are retards. They introduce laws to deal with things they do not understand. We have computer-crime laws because lawmakers could not see these crimes for what they really are - the same crimes we've committed for most of history.

Online pedophilia (sp?) is still just kiddie porn. Yeah, it's electronic. So is my picture of my bike in my avatar, but it's no different at the end of the day to the printed copy I just made. So we prosecute people for distributing the shit as though they did it on paper. The technology makes it possible for them to reach thousands more people, so we lay down thousands of instances of the same charge. Or ramp up the punishment to be in proportion to the audience. Hard to do? Not really!

The best one I've heard argued all week was this one though...

"Good" hackers just look around, they don't touch anything. They do the world a favour by finding weaknesses and telling the world about them. They never damage anything, nor do they touch or change things. So they're doing "good work".

Stupid people make me giggle. So I ask the guy, how about this then... the locks on your front door are pretty easily bypassed. So I'm heading over to your house right now, and I'm going to go inside. I'm going to walk around the place, looking through your drawers, touching your things. I'll put it all back the way it was when I found it, and I won't take anything with me. I'll be sure to tell the rest of the people on your street how to pick your locks though, in fact I'll write a fucking manual on how to do it. Do you feel violated yet? Better still, will your girlfriend, who has no idea I'm about to do this, feel sickened knowing that I was in your house, pawing through her underwear without her knowledge? How about when everybody knows?

People justify their behaviour in all sorts of strange ways. I'm not going to claim I haven't downloaded software that I shouldn't, shit I'm pretty sure I have in the last 24 hours at least once or twice. But I'm not going to rationalise it, claiming it isn't theft because I didn't go into a store and take it off the shelf. I'd feel pretty angry if one of you was in my house right now sitting on my couch. I'd feel the same way if you were hacking my website, reading my private information. Call it what you will, it's still wrong. Knowing the difference between right and wrong is fundamental to our culture.

[Lurgen]

Also, I personally believe that the games stores are more to blame than the software companies. They take a huge chunk out of the profits. Whenever possible I purchase my games online, cutting those stupid stores out of the loop. Valve got my money for HL2 directly, as did the guys who wrote Galactic Civilisations.

The most common excuse for piracy seems to be that games cost too much. And they do. Even for adults who behave like children (ie. me), with decent salaries and lots of disposable income games are ridiculously expensive.

[BlueBoy]

Read an EULA at all?
Software is NOT property. What you actually purchase is a license to use that software.

It's the only product in the world that you don't actually own after purchasing it. Real word rules need not apply.

[ajcrowley]

my point was that it is always the people lower down in the company that suffer should profits drop, not the executives regardless of the reason, if piracy hit profits enough to worry the shareholders you can be sure the CEO wont be taking a pay cut. if the games shit dont buy it or download the demo , hell download the game just buy it if its anygood.
execs dont deserve what they get but i bloody wish i was in that situation.
are we tralking law or morals here, if its law then the argument is over its illegal to priate stuff end of story, is it moral, not really but as you said the money made by the giant sofware companies for what is often a shit product is wrong but its perfectly legal. since when does pirating a game support terrorists ?, buying a pirated game form a dodgy organisation perhaps but not making your own copy, its simple case of denying a company from revenue that is legally theirs, if people dont like the profits a company makes then they need to try an alternate, granted Coca Cola makes that almost impossible in some areas. I agree with you that the situation is not fair but such is life.

[landmachine]

A lot of valid points.

I guess the other quetion is, would people who are copying these games buy them anyway if there was no option to copy them?

No.

I download buckets of games, play them for 5 minutes and delete them. If i was unable to do so, i'd simply not play any games at all, and it would in no way detract from my life. All my piracy has cost you is the right to hide your work from me.

[Scumbag]

I have absolutely no qualms about stealing from big multinational corporations or filthy rich people.

I dont really see it as stealing...More Bolshevism. Wealth redistribution. Closing the gap between the rich and the poor. Hell im doing society a favour !

[Lurgen]

I download buckets of games, play them for 5 minutes and delete them. If i was unable to do so, i'd simply not play any games at all, and it would in no way detract from my life. All my piracy has cost you is the right to hide your work from me.

What did you do with the real landmachine?

This is a fair interpretation of the situation, and describes many people I know (including myself). Which hurts. It hurts lots. I want to +rep this guy for his post, but I can't because I -repped him on principle the other day. Bugger eh?

Here's how I (or somebody very much like me) deals with this particular conflict. Almost every new game that comes out gets downloaded. It gets played, potentially from start to finish in the course of a weekend. If it's good, and has some longevity potential it gets bought. This results in maybe one in twenty games being paid for, and the other 19 being deleted in disgust.

Same applies to music in most instances - the good stuff gets paid for, the bad stuff gets deleted.

If I were forced to only play the games I paid for, I would buy far less games than I currently do. The risk associated with buying a game is very high, and with such a high percentage being utter garbage I don't have the money to gamble on software purchases. I bought Doom 3 the day it came out. Waste of money. Played it for a weekend, then shelved it. I've already payed for Halflife 2, and if CS:Source is anything to go by it was also a waste of cash.

Another point made earlier, about games that should be priced more like movies (based on cost to produce, profit levels, popularity, market scale, etc) is also valid - there is absolutely no reason why a game shouldn't cost $30, except that the software companies want to cover the costs of producing all those other shitty games that never sold.

All that said, it is still theft. The EULA is a reflection of our crappy legal systems, and their inability to deal with technology in a rational and consistent way. Being able to license an instance of a product is something that only happened because we let it. Regardless of the EULA, it's still theft. Maybe not in purely legal terms, but in moral and ethical terms.

[Lurgen]

I have absolutely no qualms about stealing from big multinational corporations or filthy rich people.

I dont really see it as stealing...More Bolshevism. Wealth redistribution. Closing the gap between the rich and the poor. Hell im doing society a favour !

Two wrongs don't make a right? More self-justification perhaps? Or sarcasm and amusing remarks?

Stealing from the rich is still illegal and wrong, which is good or my poor neighbours would have pinched my computer long ago. Being comfortable with doing the wrong thing is one thing, saying it's not wrong because of who it is can be dangerous. One of the (many) things I believe is that for rules to be fair they must be impartial. You should be able to plan them without taking specific people into account. That you should be as happy to have them pointed at you, as to be defended by them. So if you happen to have a roof over your head, would you be happy for those guidelines (steal from the rich, etc) to be applied to a homeless person who covets your warm doona?

(BTW, I just like arguing lots. It takes the boredom out of my day. That's why I post long ranting posts like these. This thread happens to be good practice for the things I need to write about in an exam in a few weeks)

[The Avatar]

Two wrongs don't make a right? More self-justification perhaps? Or sarcasm and amusing remarks?

Stealing from the rich is still illegal and wrong, which is good or my poor neighbours would have pinched my computer long ago. Being comfortable with doing the wrong thing is one thing, saying it's not wrong because of who it is can be dangerous. One of the (many) things I believe is that for rules to be fair they must be impartial. You should be able to plan them without taking specific people into account. That you should be as happy to have them pointed at you, as to be defended by them. So if you happen to have a roof over your head, would you be happy for those guidelines (steal from the rich, etc) to be applied to a homeless person who covets your warm doona?

(BTW, I just like arguing lots. It takes the boredom out of my day. That's why I post long ranting posts like these. This thread happens to be good practice for the things I need to write about in an exam in a few weeks)

Okay then MR high and Mighty, what do you say to the surcharge on games for Piracy. I didnt pirate, yet I got charged over and over again for something I didnt do. Isnt this stealing?

So in my opinion, if they want to charge over $40 for a game, fuck them, they deserve to have their software pirated. Bunch of cunts they are.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Theft .... from Microsoft? That's more like getting your own back.

I've copied games before. I trial 'em and if i like em I usually end up buying a genuine copy anyway (anyne who's seen my study will attest to all teh genuine game boxes)

Make game $10 a throw, then people will buy heaps (I'd buy at least 2 or 3 a week at that price)

[Lurgen]

Okay then MR high and Mighty, what do you say to the surcharge on games for Piracy. I didnt pirate, yet I got charged over and over again for something I didnt do. Isnt this stealing?

So in my opinion, if they want to charge over $40 for a game, fuck them, they deserve to have their software pirated. Bunch of cunts they are.

I'm neither high nor mighty, just bored and opinionated.

All industries recover costs they feel are lost to theft by charging their customers. The automotive industry incorporates new anti-theft measures because previous models were stolen, clothing shops charge more for clothes to make up for articles pinched previously... this is just the way things tend to work.

There are a whole bunch of issues in this thread. Whether or not software piracy is theft, whether games cost to damn much, whether computer game stores are pricks, all interesting but seperate points.

I think piracy is theft, but still do it. I think games cost too much, but still pay for them (sometimes). And I hate the stores, plain and simple.

Charging extra for games is a pain in the arse, and I would have thought enough margin was built into the games in the first place to cover piracy. It isn't like it's an unknown quantity, everybody knows it will happen. The ultimate solution would be to charge less for the games.

The problem with piracy in the long run is that unless the software companies see games as a profitable enterprise they won't keep making them. We can argue and debate all we want, but if they aren't profitable they will close shop and find something else to do. Piracy hurts the industry, but probably not as much as crappy, overpriced games, asshole store owners, the lack of playable (fully functional) demos, and games that aren't finished being written yet still make it onto the shelf (in the hope that a patch will be developed before anybody notices). That's what I think, Mr Avatar.

BTW, overcharging isn't stealing. It's just asking too much. You can sell things you own for whatever you like, because the customer can always say no. It's companies like Telstra, who know damn well we have no choice but to use them, who are stealing from us by charging too much for basic services which aren't competed for by other vendors. But I won't get onto that particular soapbox today.

[The Avatar]

I'm neither high nor mighty, just bored and opinionated.

All industries recover costs they feel are lost to theft by charging their customers. The automotive industry incorporates new anti-theft measures because previous models were stolen, clothing shops charge more for clothes to make up for articles pinched previously... this is just the way things tend to work.

There are a whole bunch of issues in this thread. Whether or not software piracy is theft, whether games cost to damn much, whether computer game stores are pricks, all interesting but seperate points.

I think piracy is theft, but still do it. I think games cost too much, but still pay for them (sometimes). And I hate the stores, plain and simple.

Charging extra for games is a pain in the arse, and I would have thought enough margin was built into the games in the first place to cover piracy. It isn't like it's an unknown quantity, everybody knows it will happen. The ultimate solution would be to charge less for the games.

The problem with piracy in the long run is that unless the software companies see games as a profitable enterprise they won't keep making them. We can argue and debate all we want, but if they aren't profitable they will close shop and find something else to do. Piracy hurts the industry, but probably not as much as crappy, overpriced games, asshole store owners, the lack of playable (fully functional) demos, and games that aren't finished being written yet still make it onto the shelf (in the hope that a patch will be developed before anybody notices). That's what I think, Mr Avatar.

BTW, overcharging isn't stealing. It's just asking too much. You can sell things you own for whatever you like, because the customer can always say no. It's companies like Telstra, who know damn well we have no choice but to use them, who are stealing from us by charging too much for basic services which aren't competed for by other vendors. But I won't get onto that particular soapbox today.

Stop using my points for your arguement!!! Asshat ;). Anyway, I do agree with some of the things you mention. But I still call overcharging theft simply because they dont call it overcharging. They put the onus on the consumer and say it their fault for them having to charge extra because of piracy. THAT IS FUCKING LOW.
And that is theft then when they mis-represent themselves. I pay for software, not bullshit.

[Scumbag]

Two wrongs don't make a right? More self-justification perhaps? Or sarcasm and amusing remarks?

Stealing from the rich is still illegal and wrong, which is good or my poor neighbours would have pinched my computer long ago. Being comfortable with doing the wrong thing is one thing, saying it's not wrong because of who it is can be dangerous. One of the (many) things I believe is that for rules to be fair they must be impartial. You should be able to plan them without taking specific people into account. That you should be as happy to have them pointed at you, as to be defended by them. So if you happen to have a roof over your head, would you be happy for those guidelines (steal from the rich, etc) to be applied to a homeless person who covets your warm doona?
self-justification ? perhaps...


But I still reckon its alright, no, morally right to rape and pillage the rich minority for the benefit of the poor majority.


Bring on the revolution !

[Al]

Ah I just went and BOUGHT a game. Now I'll be ok with pirating the next 5 or so...

[The Avatar]

Ah I just went and BOUGHT a game. Now I'll be ok with pirating the next 5 or so...

hehee, best post eva!!!

you win at teh internet.

:stooge:

[fastfood]

Hehe, grey area morals, the best!

Yeah its not theft, strictly speaking, as you are duplicating something without removing the original item, preventing someone else from getting it. Like in shoplifting. However you are, or one is, obtaining something for free that would otherwise have cost you money.

So.. (the favourite tactic of politicians and hack journos, responding to an attack with an attack)....
Is it theft for companies to charge much more than the real value for a product just in the interests of making more money?
when they are the only supplier of said product is it worse?

I think we are on the cusp of a different distribution system for all digital media. We are straddling (*smirk*) 2 worlds at the moment and publishers and distis are still trying to work by the old methods.

Now its *too* easy to download stuff, movies included. Game companies, music publishers, need to figure out a different business model or go out of business.
I think the only solution is the make it really cheap, and put it on the internet.
Albums for $10 (AUS) or less, games for $30. I'd buy everything, instead of 1/3rd of it.

[Sashasword]

I think this has probably been brought up before, but my suggestion to gaming companies is: release a demo. Seriously.
It seems at the moment, EB is giving out demos to certain games if you pre-order them before they hit the shelves.
This is something I like to call "free heroine", although it would be nice to be able to obtain these demos without committing to buying it when it comes out.
Sims 2 did this, as did another game my boyfriend bought. (for him. Sims 2 was for me)
If the game is really good, and you like what you see - of course you'll want to buy it!
I like to actually buy the game if I like it, so I can register it online an have access to their helpdesk, which I've had to call on a few times to fix bugs I encountered in the Sims games. I would have been lost without that.
As well as that, I like to get the pretty, decorated disk, with the matching case. I know this sort of thing is easy to do yourself, but then, it'll always be a "copy", and not legit.

I know games are too expensive, and they should (and can) be cheaper. But if you like a game, and play it a lot (or think you might, if you had it on hand), you really should buy it.
Petrol should be cheaper too - does that mean we should fill up our tank, and then just drive away without paying?
Sorry, but at the end of the day, it's wrong.

[The Avatar]

Yes but fuel companies dont charge you extra for those that did drive off do they??

And alot more people drive off without paying for fuel then pirate games.

[Lurgen]

Actually, fuel companies often charge the person who was working the counter when the drive-off took place for the stolen petrol. Fucked up, but it happens (I worked at one when I was in uni, they were the worst employers of my career).

Also, I doubt more people steal fuel than pirate software. I see a lot of peers on Torrent.... (ooops, the Avatar police will be after me now!!! ;-) )

[landmachine]

Yes but fuel companies dont charge you extra for those that did drive off do they??

And alot more people drive off without paying for fuel then pirate games.

as much as i think lurgen is a massive dork with whom i could never have anything in common, i agree with him. you're really really wrong.

[The Avatar]

Actually HEAPS of people drive off without paying. How many people drove off with out paying where you worked Lurgen. Give details, about what area you worked in and how long you worked there.

[Lurgen]

Actually HEAPS of people drive off without paying. How many people drove off with out paying where you worked Lurgen. Give details, about what area you worked in and how long you worked there.

Sure, why the hell not.

I worked in Mill Park, Victoria at one of the major outlets. I won't say which company, but they have a yellow logo. I worked at least two, usually three or four shifts a week for about a year and a half. About half of my shifts were solo, the rest were with one other person. The shifts were staggered when there were two of us, so the first person on was responsible for monitoring the fore-court.

Depending on the shift you go, you'd get at least one drive off a week, usually two. If you got the plates, make and rough model of the car you were safe but if you didn't have all those details your pay was docked. The practice is probably illegal, but it's what they did. I have an excellent memory so only got docked three or four times. The fact they had video surveilance was of no concern to them, these people were assholes who saw their employees as scum. To them, we were disposable trash who didn't deserve to be paid.

So a fair estimate of how many cars neglected to pay would be between 300 and 400 a year, give or take (that's based on the driveoffs being consistent throughout the entire week, based on my observations). That's a lot of driveoffs, I know, but here's the thing - of all the people I know who buy petrol, none have done it. Of all the people I know who buy software, every one of them has pirated something at some time.

[The Avatar]

Yeah, but how many petrol stations are there in all of australia dude?

[landmachine]

Yeah, but how many petrol stations are there in all of australia dude?

i can't believe you're carrying on trying to defend this idiotic fucking argument.

[The Avatar]

i can't believe you're carrying on trying to defend this idiotic fucking argument.


I cant belive your parents didnt use a condom. Fucking would have saved us a whole lot of pain. dickhead.

[Jimma]

Avatar I do believe you're wrong about this one. 2 or three people a week stealing from each major outlet petrol station. There are more games on the market than petrol stations in Australia, and more than a few people a week copy them.

I have nothing against the piracy of games. I wouldn't buy them if I didn't download them because I can't afford to waste money on games I don't even play. The prices are too high and the games are all shit. So many bugs and no support. The large companies that produce the expensive games make huge profits, and my piracy doesn't affect them at all, which is a shame because they deserve a bit of karma for the overpricing.

I don't think two wrongs make a right, but I also don't think stealing from such a company is a wrong. They charge as much as they can, like any other company, yet they seem to be able to charge a lot. Good for them. I download as much as I can too, perhaps it's similar. I have friends who are gaming programmers and they make a salary that's reasonable and don't get docked for piracy, or paid extra for high profiting games.

[The Avatar]

Avatar I do believe you're wrong about this one. 2 or three people a week stealing from each major outlet petrol station. There are more games on the market than petrol stations in Australia, and more than a few people a week copy them.

I have nothing against the piracy of games. I wouldn't buy them if I didn't download them because I can't afford to waste money on games I don't even play. The prices are too high and the games are all shit. So many bugs and no support. The large companies that produce the expensive games make huge profits, and my piracy doesn't affect them at all, which is a shame because they deserve a bit of karma for the overpricing.

I don't think two wrongs make a right, but I also don't think stealing from such a company is a wrong. They charge as much as they can, like any other company, yet they seem to be able to charge a lot. Good for them. I download as much as I can too, perhaps it's similar. I have friends who are gaming programmers and they make a salary that's reasonable and don't get docked for piracy, or paid extra for high profiting games.

What am i wrong about, my orginal point was that petrol companies dont give a surcharge for theft, so why can software comapnies get away with doing it and not get pulled up for theft?

Its the same for the DvD, CD, VHS market.

[fastfood]

People need to stop differentiating between the Internet/computers/software and the "real world". Having such a difference is the root cause of most of this confusion. This is an issue that I've been arguing a lot lately at Uni in my ethics subject (which is shithouse by the way, they have NFI).

When cars were first introduced, we didn't introduce new laws for them (other than traffic laws, which are pretty obviously needed). You kill a person with a car, and it's pre-meditated, that's homicide. Vehicular homicide, but still homicide. It's still murder, yes? You steal using a car, that's still theft. Even if you are in the car when you carry out the crime.

Yet we have all these stupid laws that complicate ownership, property, etc when it's digital and expect people to be able to follow what's really going on.

Software is recognised as property. You create a program, you sell it, it's property. We acknowledge ownership of this property, and always have - books are a great example of this, as is music, poetry, etc. Downloading a piece of software is theft, plain and simple. It isn't piracy, nor is it some form of electronic fraud - it's theft, just like taking it off the shelf.

If we stop considering the electronic world to be virtual, and start looking at it the way we look at everything else things suddenly get a lot easier. Harassment online is just plain harassment. Bulletin boards, emails and forums are just the same as their "real world" counterparts, being (surprise surprise) physical bulletin boards, letters and groups of people talking. So they write the stuff down. So it reaches a lot of people. We didn't need to put a whole bunch of laws around who can board an aircraft did we? Planes reach a lot of people. They have the ability to greatly change the way the world works. But we don't - you can board a plane, fly somewhere, and that's that. Just because it reaches a lot of people doesn't mean it is different.

Books printed on printing presses are treated no differently to books hand-written by monks (other than the hand-written ones being more expensive, and cool).

Our lawmakers are retards. They introduce laws to deal with things they do not understand. We have computer-crime laws because lawmakers could not see these crimes for what they really are - the same crimes we've committed for most of history.

Online pedophilia (sp?) is still just kiddie porn. Yeah, it's electronic. So is my picture of my bike in my avatar, but it's no different at the end of the day to the printed copy I just made. So we prosecute people for distributing the shit as though they did it on paper. The technology makes it possible for them to reach thousands more people, so we lay down thousands of instances of the same charge. Or ramp up the punishment to be in proportion to the audience. Hard to do? Not really!

The best one I've heard argued all week was this one though...

"Good" hackers just look around, they don't touch anything. They do the world a favour by finding weaknesses and telling the world about them. They never damage anything, nor do they touch or change things. So they're doing "good work".

Stupid people make me giggle. So I ask the guy, how about this then... the locks on your front door are pretty easily bypassed. So I'm heading over to your house right now, and I'm going to go inside. I'm going to walk around the place, looking through your drawers, touching your things. I'll put it all back the way it was when I found it, and I won't take anything with me. I'll be sure to tell the rest of the people on your street how to pick your locks though, in fact I'll write a fucking manual on how to do it. Do you feel violated yet? Better still, will your girlfriend, who has no idea I'm about to do this, feel sickened knowing that I was in your house, pawing through her underwear without her knowledge? How about when everybody knows?

People justify their behaviour in all sorts of strange ways. I'm not going to claim I haven't downloaded software that I shouldn't, shit I'm pretty sure I have in the last 24 hours at least once or twice. But I'm not going to rationalise it, claiming it isn't theft because I didn't go into a store and take it off the shelf. I'd feel pretty angry if one of you was in my house right now sitting on my couch. I'd feel the same way if you were hacking my website, reading my private information. Call it what you will, it's still wrong. Knowing the difference between right and wrong is fundamental to our culture.

L!

There is a real tendency for people on internet forums to use similes to argue a point. I think this technique just muddies the water. Talk about computers and networks, not about womens underwear! The argument just becomes confused. I also think this technique is lazy.

I don't agree that "People need to stop differentiating between the Internet/computers/software and the "real world"." The sooner people, (and lawyers!!) start thinking and talking in terms of what they are actually discussing, the better. This is why industries are falling over themselves to stop P2P networks, and using the courts to try to stop them, rather than embracing their potential. Its a big shift, what yous academics would call a 'paradigm shift' ;) and lots of people are still trying to catch up.

Stop calling a computer a house, call it a computer. :D

[s3raph]

They are taking advantage of the technology, what do you think iTunes and neo-Napster are doing?

[Jimma]

Neo Napster sounds too much like Neo Nazi

[s3raph]

Thats why noone calls it that.

[fastfood]

They are taking advantage of the technology, what do you think iTunes and neo-Napster are doing?

Sure, there are exceptions, I didn't say they were *all* doing not doing it, just vaguely generalised 'industries' and 'people'. Nor was that the argument I was making.
Still I didn't say they were like potato farmers, which was the point of my post.

[kré]

99% of the games i've copied i wouldn't have bought anyway if i wasn't able to get them so easily. probably not the strongest argument out there, but do you think i give a fuck?

http://www.crayonline.com/smilies/dunno.gif

[dozer]

latest leisure suit larry, not easy to buy if you live in oz.
crappy game companies prevent you running games if you have disk mount software.

they leave you no choice but to pirate and use cracks.

[Benwah]

Software Piracy: Do you consider it theft? Yes.

Am I a thief? Yes.

[fastfood]

Well.. as has been pointed out already, technically its not theft, but copyright infingement. Its a crime sure, so you are a copyright infinger and a criminal, but not a thief.

Number 1.0: Bureaucrat Conrad you are technically correct - the best kind of correct. I hereby promote you to grade 37.

So you are still invited around to Kerry Packer's place on Sunday for the BBQ ok? Bring some salad!

[fastfood]

You are also a snappy dresser, I've seen your photo!
50 meters high on the side of a building in Kunming!!

[Benwah]

ha ha! I've still got those photos somewhere, man that's freaky! I should sue them for copyright infringement... of MY HEAD!

edit : I am bender please insert girder, best line from that episode eva!

[fastfood]

Enourmous photo of Benwah, towering over the city like some collosal monster about to do battle with Godzilla!
I had crazy nightmares for weeks, the laser bolts coming out of your car-sized eyes, searing death and destruction onto the fleeing chinese townsfolk! There was also that dream with you wresting the giant snake, but I think that might be something else *entirely* different ;P

If anyones in Kunming, in the Yunnan province, check it out! :)

[Phlexor]

Look, you can justify what you do when it coems to pirating games, and that is exactlly what you are doing. Justifying it.

I used to think that there wasn't much wrong with me pirating software. My take on it was that they were too expensive and I wouldnt have bought the game if I didn't have the chance to copy it. I mean the software company didn't lose on a sale that they weren't going to make in the first place, so no foul.

Then I had a realisation.

I enjoyed the game. Someone spent a lot of time making this game that I am enjoying. I'm not paying for this experience.

I found this software tool useful. Someone spent a lot of time making this software tool. It help me achieve something. I'm not paying for this experience.

So you see, you ARE stealing something. It's just not a physical object.


All that aside I still have a comment to game companies. Piracy isn't a good excuse for the high price of games. It's actually bullshit. The price of games is set at $80-$100 (in Australia anyway) because that is what the market is willing to pay, or al least a percentage (that being the percentage that wont pirate games anway). So when you decide to charge that much for games some ppl aren't going to pay that much and are going to let their morals slip to the point where they are going to pirate the game wheather they feel bad about it or not. You are just going to have to accept that. You don't have to like it, but you at least have to realise that this is going to happen. If the price point of games were halved, i.e $49.95 for new release, $24.95 for current, and $9.95 for older, you are going to have a hell of a lot less piracy and a lot more customers. How can they spend so much more to make a Hollywood film, yet only charge $10-$15 for a single admission, and only around $30 for the DVD?

Something to think about at least.

For the record, I do buy a good percentage of the game that I have. You can save a lot of money if you are careful and not impatient. Games go on sale and you can now even get them of cerial packets. There is even the second hand games market and eBay etc. Plus I also own a GameCube so not much piracy there either. Shit I picked up a copy of Age of Empires at an Op-Shop for 20 cents and me and my wife play the shit out of that game.

[cub]

It's the only product in the world that you don't actually own after purchasing it. Real word rules need not apply.

Kinda like a prostitutes vagina.

[Afro88]

Look, you can justify what you do when it coems to pirating games, and that is exactlly what you are doing. Justifying it.

I used to think that there wasn't much wrong with me pirating software. My take on it was that they were too expensive and I wouldnt have bought the game if I didn't have the chance to copy it. I mean the software company didn't lose on a sale that they weren't going to make in the first place, so no foul.

Then I had a realisation.

I enjoyed the game. Someone spent a lot of time making this game that I am enjoying. I'm not paying for this experience.

I found this software tool useful. Someone spent a lot of time making this software tool. It help me achieve something. I'm not paying for this experience.

So you see, you ARE stealing something. It's just not a physical object.


All that aside I still have a comment to game companies. Piracy isn't a good excuse for the high price of games. It's actually bullshit. The price of games is set at $80-$100 (in Australia anyway) because that is what the market is willing to pay, or al least a percentage (that being the percentage that wont pirate games anway). So when you decide to charge that much for games some ppl aren't going to pay that much and are going to let their morals slip to the point where they are going to pirate the game wheather they feel bad about it or not. You are just going to have to accept that. You don't have to like it, but you at least have to realise that this is going to happen. If the price point of games were halved, i.e $49.95 for new release, $24.95 for current, and $9.95 for older, you are going to have a hell of a lot less piracy and a lot more customers. How can they spend so much more to make a Hollywood film, yet only charge $10-$15 for a single admission, and only around $30 for the DVD?

Something to think about at least.

For the record, I do buy a good percentage of the game that I have. You can save a lot of money if you are careful and not impatient. Games go on sale and you can now even get them of cerial packets. There is even the second hand games market and eBay etc. Plus I also own a GameCube so not much piracy there either. Shit I picked up a copy of Age of Empires at an Op-Shop for 20 cents and me and my wife play the shit out of that game.

I completely agree. I buy games I enjoy playing, and that run on my computer. Last game I played was The Sims 2, and there's no way I'm paying $100 for that. I played it for about 8-9 hours, and I'm stuffed if I'm going to pay $100 for the opportunity to sit in front of my computer for a day and never look at the game again. It's simply not worth it. If the game cost $50 then yeah I probably would buy it. Hell, I'd probably get back into gaming as a hobby.

Then you have games like Half-life (which I bought the day it came out) which had me going for weeks at a few hours a night. That was a game worth buying because it was fun to play and it was a massive game that took quite a while to complete. And that was just the single player. Even when I finished it (well, almost, I got bored and accidentally read a spoiler) I discovered multiplayer, followed closely by TFC. I ended up playing multiplayer for a good couple of months. Games like these are well worth the $100 to pay for them.

I personally think the only way the whole piracy issue can be resolved (at least with games) is with online pay-as-you-go style subscription services. I wouldn't mind paying $20-30 for a month of playing a game. That is about how long I play one for anyway. And the longer you play, the less it costs per month.

[wolfpac181]

I like to test drive a car before I drive it.
Demo's don't go into detail enough.
A friend let's me borrow a game for a few days. that piracy?

I'd gladly pay $5 for a game fresh. food>game so paying $50 for it sucks ass.

[Asmodeus]

as software itself is something that can be copied and redistributed, it begs the question of why if you force yourself sexually on a prostitute that the charge is rape and not theft.

[diggy]

only game i buy is champs manager every year mainly coz i love the game and i would love to contribute something so that they can produce one every year
new one coming out soon
yay~!
its called football manager though...