Religion makes you...

[Pirate]

Join my cult.

[thingy]

*joins Pirate's clit*

[kré]

i think of it more as you'd have to be stupid to get yourself into religion in the first place, rather than religion making you stupid.

[Uther Pendragon]

I think a lot of people turn to religion because they really don't want to believe that life is truly random. They desperately want there to be some meaning and order to the natural chaos. There are a lot of people who realise deep down that it's all a crock, but they want to hedge their bets in case they are wrong.

[thingy]

I think a lot of people turn to religion because they really don't want to believe that life is truly random. They desperately want there to be some meaning and order to the natural chaos. There are a lot of people who realise deep down that it's all a crock, but they want to hedge their bets in case they are wrong.
Actually, I think it's more that they can't grasp the fact that life is random, they find it hard to accept.

[HAL]

I think a lot of people turn to religion because they really don't want to believe that life is truly random.

Just because religion can't justify it's position doesn't mean our whole existence is "truly random" and there's nothing weird going on around here.

On another level:
What cult rituals/practices (if any) will be employed?
I vote for the zgeek government. There appears to be some intelligent people on zgeek who would be more than capable with producing some good ideas. Do you remember granting anyone the explicit right to govern you?... I certainly don't.

[thingy]

Just because religion can't justify it's position doesn't mean our whole existence is "truly random" and there's nothing weird going on around here.
Religion? Justify? I thought majority of religion was so things didn't have to be justified, it's all just "faith", you have to blindly believe? I blindly believe ... to not believe them.

Oh, and it's a little of this and a little of my upbringing (very strong catholic family, catholic schooling my whole life & church on sundays etc) that makes me tend to agree with you. I don't believe in religion at all, but due to my upbringing I find it hard not to believe in the existance of (a) god.

I vote for the zgeek government. There appears to be some intelligent people on zgeek who would be more than capable with producing some good ideas.
That's the runniest thing I've read all week. Keep up the good work.

[HAL]

Religion? Justify? I thought majority of religion was so things didn't have to be justified, it's all just "faith", you have to blindly believe? I blindly believe ... to not believe them.

Oh, and it's a little of this and a little of my upbringing (very strong catholic family, catholic schooling my whole life & church on sundays etc) that makes me tend to agree with you. I don't believe in religion at all, but due to my upbringing I find it hard not to believe in the existance of (a) god.


That's the runniest thing I've read all week. Keep up the good work.
Maybe I should have stressed some a bit more. And yes, I'm not totally serious on the idea, strictly because the boundaries would be enormous. But fuck it would be fun.

[Natfu]

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~natfuent/popecard.bmp

Join the Paratheo Anametamystichood of Eris Esoteric! That's right a POEE!
If you want, you can also be a certified Pope!


Check it out:
http://www.kbuxton.com/discordia/

[druckfugged]

I was going to vote stupid, but there was a lobby group of evangelists on the way to the poll and they made me change my mind....

[gertie]

Oh, and it's a little of this and a little of my upbringing (very strong catholic family, catholic schooling my whole life & church on sundays etc) that makes me tend to agree with you. I don't believe in religion at all, but due to my upbringing I find it hard not to believe in the existance of (a) god.


with a catholic background do you find that whenever the word "religion" is mentioned your thoughts exclude any other religions?

BTW, what is the difference between a catholic and a christian? its puzzled me for some time... okay so, five minutes is quite a while in my books.

[ashet]

christian=universal for the wide denominations. Anabaptists, Baptist Church, Catholicism, Congregational, Coptic Church, Disciples, Episcopal Church, Latter Day Saints, Lutheran Church, Mennonite Church, Methodist Church, Orthodox, Pentecostal, Presbyterian Church, Salvation Army, Seventh-Day Adventist Church, United Methodist Church.

catholic=christian+pope

basically

[ajcrowley]

i run the Central Amazonian Spiritualist Healers and i really need donations, please send cheques, i realise its a long name so feel free to make them out as C.A.S.H for every $1000 i'll send you a bumper sticker

[thingy]

with a catholic background do you find that whenever the word "religion" is mentioned your thoughts exclude any other religions?
Actually, yes. This is only first thoughts, those that first pop in to my mind. I believe it's nothing more than a bias due to familiarity.

[Drinking Duck]

Religion is an excuse for war

[Asmodeus]

tho oddly, many people are religious and don't even know it. they eithe havent named it, or haven't accepted it yet.

religion isn't bad, blind faith makes you stupid tho. you already accept facts not in evidence, its just a primer for more.

[Aardvark]

Every time people ask me if I believe in God, I usually reply with "Do you believe in oxygen?"

That usually confuses the average zealot long enough for me to lose interest and wander elsewhere

[cahj]

religion isn't bad, blind faith makes you stupid tho. you already accept facts not in evidence, its just a primer for more.

Religion requires faith. Faith is an intergral part of the process of believing.
And yes, I agree, faith is an acceptance of facts generally not based on scientific evidence.

[ashet]

Religion requires faith. Faith is an intergral part of the process of believing.
And yes, I agree, faith is an acceptance of facts generally not based on scientific evidence.


you use the word fact, faith is not an acceptance of fact, it is based on belief, fact requires by its definition irrefutable proof.

[Moses]

mmm cult

[ajca]

relegion is just an excuse for some priest to have power

[Scumbag]

Every time people ask me if I believe in God, I usually reply with "Do you believe in oxygen?"

That usually confuses the average zealot long enough for me to lose interest and wander elsewhere

I say "which god" ?

Then they say "theres only one god"

Then I say "no theres not, theres thousands of gods, Hinduism alone has over 2000 gods, In greek mythology theres several hundred gods, not to mention all the tribal beleifs around the world which refer to some sort of god like mythical beings...but to answer your question. No I dont beleive in any of them" Then I walk away

"Hin"

[DAnube]

i said stupid
but religion has probably made me a better person because i have seen how stupid blind faith is, and i have learnt to have an open mind, but to open my eyes to find the truth as well.
"think for yourself, question authority"



& i love the Central Amazonian Spiritual Healers... send me a bumper sticker!

[RedMaN]

I did believe in religion at some point but now I don't.... completely athiest.
I don't like the fact that alot of the world's comflicts are based on religion and different religions say that my god is better than yours. I believe that there is a higher power but I'm just not sure what form it takes.

[dogwomble]

I vote for the zgeek government. There appears to be some intelligent people on zgeek who would be more than capable with producing some good ideas. Do you remember granting anyone the explicit right to govern you?... I certainly don't.

I vote Pirate the minister of boobies and drugs, Thingy the minister of funny jokes, and me the minister of all things not quite heterosexual. Any other nominations?

[ShinymetalASS]

Religion is a tool of male opression used over thousands of years to acquire and consolidate power over the masses.

Except in elephant society. Thats a tool of female opression.

:p

[djgcorporation]

Religion starts wars...yeah that makes everyone a better person.

[Afta Image]

I wanted to join the Jedi religion, but my lightsaber is red and they say they wont train me cause there lots of Bad thoughts in my head....

But I have heard of those Sith, they are cool, might try and sign up with them....

[beachcomber]

Jesus is cool

[Kas]

Actually, I think it's more that they can't grasp the fact that life is random, they find it hard to accept.


love that quote!

[LauraleeBug]

Memorise it - it'll be on the test! :D

[CMYK]

All religion is stupid. Life is just shit. Get used to it. You can't blame it on anything else. Be nice to people.

[Afta Image]

Horney......

Where is that option, desicrating sacred ground, confession boxes are a great place to do things which makle you have to confess ;) .

[Sagacious]

Jesus is cool
King Missile the band that brought us 'Detatchable Penis' said it best with their follow up single from the same album...'Jesus was a way cool dude.'

[Mr Bigglesworth]

I will never understand the atheists constant and predictable whinge that religion causes wars. I was born into a relatively liberal Catholic family and I have never attended a mass where the priest has advocated that I take up arms and destroy or convert or try to promote my religion above all others. The last time the Catholic church condoned a war was the Crusades and that was 1000 years ago! Yes the Catholic church has not always been perfect (and some things piss me off as well) but on the whole if people actually read the Gospels and dont become fundamentalist freaks then I honestly cannot see what the big problem is.

My challenge to the religion-bashers is this: quote any one line that Jesus says that his believers must wage war against non-believers. Or Muhammad or Buddha if you prefer.

I can really see how teachings like "Love one another", "Do not Kill", " Do not Steal" and "Honour your father and mother" can be misinterpreted into "Kill all infidels". Or if you like the Onions take on this: http://www.mikesfreegifs.com/main4/God.htm

[TheMightyPhill]

Does this count?

"They were my brothers!" Gideon exclaimed. "As surely as the LORD lives, I wouldn't kill you if you hadn't killed them." Turning to Jether, his oldest son, he said, "Kill them!" But Jether did not draw his sword, for he was only a boy and was afraid. Then Zebah and Zalmunna said to Gideon, "Don't ask a boy to do a man's job! Do it yourself!" So Gideon killed them both and took the royal ornaments from the necks of their camels. (Judges 8:19-21 NLT)

The Evil Bible... tehe (http://www.evilbible.com/May.htm)

This surely does...

Numbers 25:1-9

Numbers 25
Moab Seduces Israel
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people.

The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor.

Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died.

God is Great (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=REV%202:14;NUM%2031:16;NUM%2025:1-9;&version=51;&version=51;)

I am a non believer for countless reasons before we drag the old religion is war out... which, in a practical sense, you can't deny anyway.

[Directed]

Guys religion doesn't start wars. Get it right. If you did away with religion there would still be wars. What religion drove the soviets to take over so many countries after world war II for instance? Ideologies start wars. As long as we have ideologies we will have wars. So my solution is lets do away with all ideologies!!!


Ideology
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

An ideology is a collection of ideas. The word ideology was coined by Count Destutt de Tracy in the late 18th century to define a "science of ideas." An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare Weltanschauung), as in common sense (see Ideology in everyday society) and several philosophical tendencies (see Political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society

[Sagacious]

I am not a Marxist (and interestingly neither was Karl Marx but that is a different story) but I think he had it right when he said that 'religion is the opiate of the masses.'

It comforts those who are suffering;
It causes those who rely on it instead of their own resources and capabilites to become irrational and extreme;
It provides hope to those who are hopeless;
It keeps the poor poor and makes the rich richer;
It provides a focus to those who are without their own focus;
It's 'abuse' is a major cause of oppression, brutality, conflict and discord throughout the wrld and throughout history.

So like anything else open to interpretation and appropriation by human beings it is a double edged sword which takes its orientation for good/bad, benefit/bane from those that seek to use, employ or appropriate it.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Same goes for religion.

I am a lapsed catholic - atheist.

[Scythe]

It comforts those who are suffering;
It causes those who rely on it instead of their own resources and capabilites to become irrational and extreme;
It provides hope to those who are hopeless;
It keeps the poor poor and makes the rich richer;
It provides a focus to those who are without their own focus;
It's 'abuse' is a major cause of oppression, brutality, conflict and discord throughout the wrld and throughout history.

Ironically, several prominent people in history have made much the same arguments about Democracy.

I don't really have a point, I just thought i'd throw that in. :)

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Does this count?

Judges 8:19-21 NLT
Numbers 25:1-9

I am a non believer for countless reasons before we drag the old religion is war out... which, in a practical sense, you can't deny anyway.

Phill, everything you quoted was out of the Old Testament, a set of books that Christians almost never use anyway and are no more than a bunch of exaggerated childrens stories. Its not uncommon for alot of churches not to use the Old Testament at all these days, and for good reason.

I'll ask again, where in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) does it say to kill people (for any reason at all). Lets see, Jesus rose the dead, he saved the life of a prostitute from being stoned (with rocks, not pot) and preached forgiveness. When one of his disciples lashed out at a soldier to defend him, he said that "those who live by the sword, die by the sword". And the same goes with the Quran, as Muslims take Jesus' teachings almost as serious as those of Muhammad, who similarly didnt advocate war.

Dont blame religion for starting wars. The last war that religion started was over 500 years ago, in Europe, over protestantism. Almost all other wars since then have been either for territory, ethnicity or political ideology.

[Sashasword]

People, people, let me end this debate for us all.
It's true, there is one God.

It's me.

It's true, I can even answer prayers...
You'll probably get a no, but that's not the point now, is it? :p

[Fitty]

Religion makes you a better person, because it should initiate thought in everyone, which inevitably leads you to the conclusion that it's all crap, but has made you a better person for thinking about it.

[Sagacious]

The Old Testament God and the New Testament God are surely the same God.


Or did they do it in shifts?

Personally I like the style of the Old Testament God. The God that squashed Samson and slew Caine (or was that Able) and turned Lot's wife into a food seasoning. He has balls he has awe power you don't mess with the old Testament God.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

The Old Testament God and the New Testament God are surely the same God.

Or did they do it in shifts?


They are the same, but think of it like this:

Operating System: Omnipotent XP
v1.0 - Created universe (64-bit), some aspects of universe flawed
v1.1 - Corrected the "immortality" bug in humans, condemned the object to life of suffering.
v1.2 - Patched the "armageddon" security flaw (temporary fix) and applied FPU fix to "water" variable.
v2.0 - Introduced the new "Commandments" feature.
v2.11 - Added the "unpredictable human behaviour" snap-in, has not been fully finalised to this day (sys admin reckons the problem is with the hardware)
v3.0 - Added the "Jesus" feature. Program ran faster but was bulkier, with all the additional protocols and memory required. "Catholic Church" process ended up doimiating CPU time.
v3.4 - "Mohammad" option added. This relieved pressure off the "Catholic Church" process but similarly led to a conflict over system resources.
v3.91 - "Protestant" class added to "Catholic Church" process, further alleviating process strain.
v4.0 - "Modern Society" upgrade applied. Memory and HDD increase was required to run this. Program began to deprecate previous versions claiming they were "obselete". Previous version moves itself from main memory to secondary memory.
v4.1 - Older (pre v3.4) components of program decide to operate within main memory and conflict with "Modern Society" upgrade. This security flaw was called the "Jihad" bug. Pending v4.2 release.

Does that make sense now??? :p

[Sagacious]

They are the same, but think of it like this:

Operating System: Omnipotent XP
v1.0 - Created universe (64-bit), some aspects of universe flawed
v1.1 - Corrected the "immortality" bug in humans, condemned the object to life of suffering.
v1.2 - Patched the "armageddon" security flaw (temporary fix) and applied FPU fix to "water" variable.
v2.0 - Introduced the new "Commandments" feature.
v2.11 - Added the "unpredictable human behaviour" snap-in, has not been fully finalised to this day (sys admin reckons the problem is with the hardware)
v3.0 - Added the "Jesus" feature. Program ran faster but was bulkier, with all the additional protocols and memory required. "Catholic Church" process ended up doimiating CPU time.
v3.4 - "Mohammad" option added. This relieved pressure off the "Catholic Church" process but similarly led to a conflict over system resources.
v3.91 - "Protestant" class added to "Catholic Church" process, further alleviating process strain.
v4.0 - "Modern Society" upgrade applied. Memory and HDD increase was required to run this. Program began to deprecate previous versions claiming they were "obselete". Previous version moves itself from main memory to secondary memory.
v4.1 - Older (pre v3.4) components of program decide to operate within main memory and conflict with "Modern Society" upgrade. This security flaw was called the "Jihad" bug. Pending v4.2 release.

Does that make sense now??? :p

perfect sense the system needs to convert to a linux based OS cleaner faster more robust and without the need for a God construct.

[ewe2]

no thanks, i gave up cults for Lent.

[H34D STR0NG]

i dont usually get into the whole religion debate for the simple fact that I'm non religious and dont believe anyone should force there believes upon another person, to top that off nearly all my mates have a different believes so i generally try not to offend what they want to believe in. just to list a few

Christian, Muslim, tumil, catholic

i believe most people are not strong enough to believe in them selfs so they need to seek for something greater then them self. people need security in what they do in life and if that means believing in a high being then i more then welcome them to do so..

what i do disagree with is extremist from any religion that believe they have the right to kill others because they believe they are doing it in the name of god..

thats my opinion (and bad spelling :p )

[legion]

all your answers to life are here...

www.jebus-is-lord.com (http://www.jebus-is-lord.com)

:banana:

[Jabro]

ignorant of the real world

[Vardsy]

Religion has started all most every war in history - So yeah I think it is pretty fingered

[and3w]

Difficult one; It makes you stupid by a) preventing you from accepting (or even in some cases, thinking about) other points of view and b) makes you think that all others who don't think like you are automatically wrong and therefore, wrong thinking = stupid.
However, if people actually lived by the moralistic parts of most religions (say the 10 commandments, minus the religious bits (Idols, no other god, etc)) then I think we would live in a better world, esp if the most important one became the basis of all religions i.e. Treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself

[Nodbugger]

I think Einstein would disagree with 230 of you.

[and3w]

And all of these idiots would have agreed with the 230!
supernatural

Douglas Adams, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Woody Allen, Lance Armstrong, Darren Aronofsky, Isaac Asimov, Peter William Atkins, David Attenborough, Iain M. Banks, Clive Barker, Dave Barry, Bill Bass, Ingmar Bergman, Björk, Lewis Black, Bill Blass, Jim Bohanan, Marlon Brando, Richard Branson, Berkeley Breathed, Bill Bryson, Peter Buck, Warren Buffett, George Carlin, John Carmack, Adam Carolla, John Carpenter, Asia Carrera, Fidel Castro, Dick Cavett, Noam Chomsky, Chumbawamba, Alexander Cockburn, Billy Connolly, Francis Crick, David Cronenberg, David Cross, Alan Cumming, Rodney Dangerfield, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, David Deutsch, Ani DiFranco, Micky Dolenz, Phil Donahue, Roger Ebert, Dean Edell, Greg Egan, Paul Ehrlich, Albert Einstein, Harlan Ellison, Brian Eno, Harvey Fierstein, Larry Flynt, Dave Foley, Jodie Foster, Kinky Friedman, Janeane Garofalo, Bill Gates, Bob Geldof, Ricky Gervais, Ira Glass, James Gleick, Seth Green, Harry Harrison, Robert Heinlein, Nat Hentoff, Katharine Hepburn, Christopher Hitchens, Douglas Hofstadter, Penn Jillette, Billy Joel, Angelina Jolie, Wendy Kaminer, Jonathan Katz, Diane Keaton, Margot Kidder, Neil Kinnock, Michael Kinsley, Ron Kuby, Milan Kundera, Richard Leakey, Bruce Lee, Tom Lehrer, Stanislaw Lem, Tom Leykis, James Lipton, H.P. Lovecraft, John Malkovich, Barry Manilow, Karl Marx, Todd McFarlane, Sir Ian McKellen, Arthur Miller, Frank Miller, Mike Mills, Marvin Minsky, Julianne Moore, Desmond Morris, Randy Newman, Mike Nichols, Jack Nicholson, Gary Numan, Bob Odenkirk, Patton Oswalt, Camille Paglia, Andy Partridge, Mark Pauline, Steven Pinker, Paula Poundstone, Terry Pratchett, James Randi, Ron Reagan Jr., Keanu Reeves, Rick Reynolds, Gene Roddenberry, Joe Rogan, Henry Rollins, Andy Rooney, Salman Rushdie, John Sayles, Captain Sensible, Robert Silverberg, Bob Simon, Steven Soderbergh, George Soros, Richard Stallman, Bruce Sterling, Howard Stern, J. Michael Straczynski, Julia Sweeney, Matthew Sweet, Annika Sörenstam, Teller, Studs Terkel, Tom Tomorrow, Linus Torvalds, Eddie Vedder, Paul Verhoeven, Gore Vidal, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Sarah Vowell, James Watson, Steven Weinberg, Joss Whedon, Harland Williams, Ted Williams, Steve Wozniak

And more from here: http://www.celebatheists.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

[Seeker]

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
Albert Einstein

[Nodbugger]

I'd go with Einstein over any of those idiots.

[and3w]

Idiots? Noam Chomsky? Richard Leakey? Francis Crick? Richard Dawkins? and, oh, look Albert Einstein (who did what most old people do, decides to cover all the bases and take another look at religion as they are dieing. On top of which, he did all his best work as an atheist..at the end of his life, in fact for the last 30 odd years he refused to believe in Quantum theory, even though it was being proved experimentally more and more over the years. Seems to me as he got religion he lost the ability to think critically and to accept he may be wrong, as usual with religious people!)? Bill Gates? Larry Flynt? (who I am sure your right hand and you are INTIMATELY aquainted with!)?
Desmond Morris? And one who I think is an idiot but who would fit right in with your worldview, Richard Branson!

And I have only included the scientists, not the great artists, in whatever genre you care to chose.

[Nodbugger]

Einstein wasn't an athiest at any point of his life.

[and3w]

""It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
— Albert Einstein, in Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press, 1981.

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. ... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
— Albert Einstein, Religion and Science, New York Times Magazine (9 November 1930); also used in the obituary in New York Times (19 April 1955)

NO? From wikipedia http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Atheism

BUCKY:

So then, you consider yourself to be a religious man?

EINSTEIN:

I believe in mystery and, frankly, I sometimes face this mystery with great fear. In other words, I think that there are many things in the universe that we cannot perceive or penetrate and that also we experience some of the most beautiful things in life in only a very primitive form. Only in relation to these mysteries do I consider myself to be a religious man. But I sense these things deeply. What I cannot understand is how there could possibly be a God who would reward or punish his subjects or who could induce us to develop our will in our daily life.

BUCKY:

You don't believe in God, then?

EINSTEIN:

Ah, this is what I mean about religion and science going hand-in-hand! Each has a place, but each must be relegated to its sphere. Let's assume that we are dealing with a theoretical physicist or scientist who is very well-acquaintcd with the different laws of the universe, such as how the planets orbit the sun and how the satellites in turn orbit around their respectivc planets. Now, this man who has studied and understands these different laws-how could he possibly believe in one God who would be capable of disturbing the paths of these great orbiting masses?

No, the natural laws of science have not only been worked out theoretically but have been proven also in practice. I cannot then believe in this concept of an anthropomorphic God who has the powers of interfering with these natural laws. As I said before, the most beautiful and most profound religious emotion that we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. And this mysticality is the power of all true science. If there is any such concept as a God, it is a subtle spirit, not an image of a man that so many have fixed in their minds. In essence, my religion consists of a humble admiration for this illimitable superior spirit that reveals itself in the slight details that we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds
From http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/einbucky.htm
See also: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm

From what I can gather Einstein himself didn't know whether he was an atheist or not, although his quotes (of which I have tried to show BOTH sides) seem to shade towards him certainly not being an organised-religion man. Being born Jewish, he sure as shit was not a religios Jew.

But, so long as you say he is..well, I guess you know better than him, eh.

[Mr Bigglesworth]

Nodbugger speaks the truth. You have been well behaved lately, Noddy. I like you so much better this way.

Back to the topic on hand, Einstein was Jewish. He made mention of God many times, but he said that his view of God was one that kept order in the universe, as opposed to one who involved himself in the affairs of humans.

Alot of narrow-minded scientists make the determination that God does not exist because science explains him away. I, as a scientist, take the exact opposite view. The way I see it, God exists, and science proves it. Look at DNA. Explain to me something so complex. Who wrote DNA? It had to come from somewhere. What about the laws of nature. There is so much that we cannot comprehend. Tell me that its all random.

[and3w]

Mr. Bigglesworth, we must agree to disagree..go away and read anything by Stephen (or Steven, can't remember) Jay Gould (Especially 'The Pandas Thumb') and you will realise that you are making one of the classic mistakes in the creationist Vs Evolution argument...the "how could such complexity as (the classic argument) the Eye come about without a designer".."where did the first eye come from then " etc..This really is a long running discussion but I believe Mr Gould has well and truly de-bunked it in a succession of books showing how it is quite easy AND scientifically provable to show how it came about via evolution.
Now myself, The only place I see where religion (by that I take it you mean an omnipresent, all-powerful supreme being, and not organised religions), where such a being could have a place which cannot be contradicted, from either viewpoint, and the only place where I personally can see the possibility of such a being is ..."what was here before the 'Big Bang"? I believe that everything afterwards is explainable by modern theories or it is at least possible to see a way it would be possible to explain it.
However, the idea of "What was here before the big bang" or "where did the big-bang bang from" or "who made the big-bang happen as it did" or "who set up all the physical constants & parameters of the universe so it turned out just right for life"...now, THOSE are the questions which I cannot see a realistic theory to explain.
Yes, certain aspects of some quantum physics theories propose an infinite (literally) number of universe, out of which 1 (ours) has those exactly correct parameters (the planck constant, the atomic weight of hydrogen and many others) and has ended up with us here. But I don't think any Quantum theory has enough backing for a single TOE to prove these things (although some of the next generation colliders may well do this).
Everything SINCE the Big-Bang has a reasonably good explanation (except, possibly, the period of 'expansion' just after the big bang), good enough to convince me anyway. OK, there may be conflicting explanation for some of it (did DNA or RNA come first etc) but certainly, since single celled creatures came alomg (and many would argue earlier) everything is explainable by theories now extant or at least consistent with what we think we know now.
Seriously, read Steven Jay Gould..he explains how all those weird things one thinks HAS to have been created by a 'God' are, in fact, logical extensions of organs etc which were already there. I cannot do the facts (for facts they are) justice here, just one of his books would show you what I mean.

[dwarfthrower]

Look at DNA. Explain to me something so complex. Who wrote DNA? It had to come from somewhere.

I didn't write DNA, but DNA is essentially a software algorithm - machine code for organisms. I write more complex programs every day.

[and3w]

Well, one theory is that it was a failsafe for RNA, which has been created in the laboratory from common, not too complex molecules, and electricity (lightning, say) in conditions that are very similar to those found on Earth at the correct time. (07:20, march 14th -4billion years ago, give or take a few minutes:-)
As far as I recall, this was accomplished back in the late 1960's - early 1970's..I would think they have got a LOT better at it, or have a better idea by now, but it certainly gives you an idea of what I mean.
We are talking Deep Time here, remember..when you have the whole earth & maybe 1/2 a billion years to play with, random just doesn't explain the 1/2 of it! In that time, other theories say that DNA came first and have probably been replicated in a lab by now.
Please try Steven Jay Gould..I didn't mean to sound patronising, I really meant what I said..I remember how his books opened my eyes when I was an Earth Sciences student. Check him out out: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jay_Gould) and, specifically regarding this subject:

"Q: How can chance mutations result in adaptations that seem to be purposefully designed?

A: It's a common phrase that natural selection is chance and necessity. It goes back to the title of a book by the great French biologist Jacques Monod. But it's not really correct, because the chance part is not natural selection. Natural selection is actually a locally deterministic force.

If you want to say the Darwinian evolution has a component of chance, and a component of local necessity, that's quite accurate. But the basic argument goes like this: Because natural selection doesn't make anything, natural selection is an eliminative force. Natural selection can only differentially preserve certain variations in a spectrum of variation within a species. Now some other process produces that variation; ultimately it's mutation. And mutation is spread around through recombination and sexual organisms.

But because the causes of genetic mutation are occurring at the level of the gene, and bear no reference to the adaptive design of organisms, the variation among the organisms produced by mutation bears no relationship to what's for the good of organisms. So it's not random in the mathematical sense of flipping a coin and getting 50-50 [chance]. All we mean is that the variation which provides the fuel for natural selection occurs without reference to those characteristics that would be useful for an organism.

For example, if you have a bunch of elephants living in Siberia, and it's getting cold because there's an ice sheet advancing, there's going to be another Ice Age, you're going to have elephants with different amounts of hair on their bodies. But there isn't any internal force that produces more hair because that would be a good thing. You just have variation among these different elephants, and that's what we call random with respect to the direction of natural selection. And then you have the second force, which is natural selection, which is not necessity or determinism on a global scale. Natural selection doesn't make overall more progressive or better organisms; natural selection makes locally adapted organisms.

If you go back to that analogy, if you have a bunch of elephants and it's getting colder, on average, -- this is statistical phenomenon, not every time. After all, the hairiest elephant can fall into a crevasse and die or be sterile and have no kids. But it's a statistical phenomenon that elephants with more hair are going to leave more surviving offspring. And that's natural selection.

From an interview here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/08/1/text_pop/l_081_06.html)
There is also a good radio interview with him here (http://www.annonline.com/interviews/961009/biography.html) (click on the Audio Interview and listen to 1 minute of ads about the station, you then get a 1/2 hour interview, which doesn't particularly address this but is still a good overview of some of his beliefs.

His death at the tragically early age of 60 was a great loss, both to Biology & evolutionary theory and to the populisation of complex scientific ideas. RIP. :boohoo:

[darns]

If a designer created the complex DNA and stuff, why is it still not perfect? All the complexity and yet people get killed by the simplest viruses. Would it not seem that the so called "creator" isn't that perfect of a creator? Aren't we flawed creations?

Of course they will always counter "but you a mere human would never understand the mind of god", to which I retort, only if god works in Microsoft.

[Sagacious]

Religion makes you regular. Mmmmmmm holy fibre! :assfire:

[munganah]

religion is an excuse for self rightousness

[Lesser]

Can I choose both?

All of what we call 'morals' are based mainly on religous teachings. While religion does teach you to follow on faith instead of questioning the worth of its teachings it does encourage people to be selfless and righteous.

Therefore religion both makes you stupid AND a better person.

(I chose stupid)

[Seeker]

Religion makes you... aroused

[Booberella]

im waiting for Jesus... let me know if you see him
excuse me, are you Jesus? no, sorry to bother you...

[Fuzzy Dice]

I'm Jesus' brother Bob. If only I'd been born just a little sooner, I'd be more than the brother of God Jr.

[Booberella]

g'day bob... heard from your brother? do you have any plans tp visit him in the holidays?

[say_wat]

how 'bout "a better stupid" option?

[ShinymetalASS]

.....want to not hang on to the handrail and spit over the side.

[MasterFarter]

Got no issues with anyones beleifs or faith.

Religion though is pretty fucked up. It is no more or less than the mechanics and hoopla that goes with the 'faith'. Religion is what people use to fuck others over completely.

[Hooty Mcboob]

religion as an institution is pretty screwed up... In its simplest form.. I guess it is a good idea... Like Communism... In theory it is a great idea... In theory..

[GutterClown]

god damn, is this thread still going??

Religion = shit.

EOF

[Dundasbro]

I'm just surprised so many people voted for "A better person"

[Mr Bigglesworth]

I'm just surprised so many people voted for "A better person"

It depends. I find that Christianity and Buddhism followed in the correct way makes you definitely better. Islam probably does as well, but the fucknuts who keep blowing themselves up ruin it for everyone else.

[d3kst3r]

I'll join any cult that promotes lots of casual sex.

[AhhDiddums]

I used to be a devout Catholic.

I am now an atheist.

Looking back on it, religion really did make me stupid. Extremely fucking stupid.

[AhhDiddums]

It depends. I find that Christianity and Buddhism followed in the correct way makes you definitely better. Islam probably does as well, but the fucknuts who keep blowing themselves up ruin it for everyone else.

Buddhism I would have to agree actually, but I do not consider Buddhism to be a religion. Buddhism as Siddartha Guatama taught it has no divinity, no gods. So I would argue that it is more a life philosophy, and not a "religion."

Christianity followed in the correct way makes you better? I disgress, it certainly does not. Read this on the homophobic nature of the bible: http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/contempry/hompbia1.htm. Thats just for starters. Heres a few classics from the bible:

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." - Leviticus 20:13

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If you actually follow the bible, you end up becoming a fundamentalist nut-job. The only good Christians are bad Christians. As in, the ones who realize that some stuff in the bible is just pure bullshit. Islam has nutty shit in it as well, I'm just not in the mood to look it up.

Religion in general is a tool for control and a tool to divide. The world would be much better without it.

[SuperNova]

People just need to believe in god to justify our existance. Another thing that shits me is the fact that most religious sectors pump their believers with so much fear, that they actually are to scared to believe otherwise..... I despise any form of religion

[SteveCobalt.37]

*knock on door*, i open door.

Two weird looking chicks on a tuesday afternoon : "hi we are from *insert minority religion here* and were wondering if you believe that jesus christ will one day return to earth and make it pure and wonderful again and save us all"

me: "please tell me you dont"

I find religion highly non-sensical, my thoughts are based on a guy i knew who was a christian and he followed all the rules, believed in god, was good to his mother and went to church every sunday etc. and he died in a car accident at the age of 17. Im basically a sin committing cunt and im still here, go figure.

[Looney_Tunes67]

Ahh Religion.....The killer of more people than the Black Plague

[mooshka]

I worship the rustling leaves...