Poetry Discussion - what makes a good poem?

[Zan]

I'm a reasonably active member of the Megatokyo fora, and read quite a bit of the threads in the Creative Writing forum (http://forums.megatokyo.com/index.php?showforum=14), but I'm struck by a couple of things.

Many of the creations are struck down in the first or second comment by such all-encompassing statements as 'don't be angsty, no-one cares' or 'your metaphors and similes are stock-standard, write it again'.

I wrote a poem a few years ago, trying to get over a bout of unrequited 'love'. I had always thought that it made nice use of language, had a running metaphor, and the angst in it was deep and meaningful. However, looking at it now...

Dawn

Day by day
It slowly dawns
The glimmers of realisation
Edge unbidden into my thoughts
I would prefer to remain as I have
To continue my delusion
But the last shreds of stubborn hope...
Fade with each new day
As the glimmers grow
So to the pinpricks of hope vanish
One by one
Until finally I behold the shimmering dawn
And the evaporation of the last possibilities
I would hide them from the light
To keep them real in my dark thoughts
But who can escape the day?

...I can see that it's shoddily written - but I can't see what is wrong with it.

Put simply, I can write a poem and look at it and say 'yeah, I like that', or 'no, I think that is a piece of shit', but I can't say why the two are different.

Do we really need an outside observer and critic to identify the flaws of our creations? Is the author 'too close' to the work to be able to explicitly say what needs to be fixed?

:edit: m0loch, realisation is the 'Australian English' spelling, just like generalisation and organisation, but I appreciate your comments.

[m0loch]

the right kind of clay is the basis for good pottery.

[m0loch]

oh...poetry. Sorry.

What's wrong with it you ask? Its un-interesting. The first few lines cause me to lose interest. I mean, it works, because it sets the mood for dawn, but at dawn I'm yawning. That's exactly the feeling the first few lines evoke.

Anyhow, it sounds as if you're thick skinned enough to take any criticism of your work, in fact you asked for it. For the record, I know exactly shit about writing so take my commentary with that in mind. But it is truthful. I didn't say what I said because I thought it would be funny to slam what you did. I wish I could get my thoughts from my head down on paper without them losing all meaning. Maybe I'll work on it. I think I'll be seeing alot more of this forum.

P.S. your spelling needs work too. It's realization with a 'z' :)

[cub]

P.S. your spelling needs work too. It's realization with a 'z' :)


Your spelling needs work too. It's realisation with an 's'.

[m0loch]

The smiley was supposed to mean "HAHA, this is a joke. I know that Aussies/Brits/Canadians spell differently. Please take this opportunity to mock me for being an ignorant American."

But instead you guys were kind enough to explain it to me.

[Deimos]

The languge you have used is, on the most part, good, but it is hard to read because there a lack of punctuation. Perhaps you could try using commas after lines such as "I would prefer to remain as I have" to give the feeling that, although you are starting a new line, you are still continuing on the same idea of "I would prefer". I am unsure of why you have used the ellipsis (...) after "stubborn hope" and that got me a bit confused. Also, should that be "So too the pinpricks of hope"?

When I am reading poetry I like to imagine hearing it out loud, and I like it to have some sort of meter - it doesn't have to be a regular meter, but some sort of flow. I found "I would prefer to remain as I have" to be rather clumsy and blunt. It is a little too much like straight prose and not lyrical enough for my liking, so unless you are trying to use this as an effect I would try to make it a little more colourful.

I also like poetry that paints a picture so, if it were me, I would try to use more imagery. I like "The glimmers of realisation edge unbidden into my thoughts" because I get the feeling that these thoughts are creeping into your head but you don't want them there, but I don't know why you call them "glimmers" - to me a glimmer is something bright and hopeful, and I assume the realisation of which you speak is the realisation that your love is unrequited, which, to me, doesn't sound like a glimmer.

The good thing about poetry is, no matter what anyone else says, it's what it means to you that is important.

[Bifrost]

Sweet..OK, so I haven't put up a sticky thread to explain the situation, but you have posted and regardless, I will critique...

Werd. I aplore your confidence, Zand3r.

OK, there is a small issue with drunkenness and the Melbourne Cup for me, but I would like to provide what I feel is criticism...

OK, your opening two lines are really effective - the reader takes what is presented and is brought into the world of the poem very easily...Totally great opening (for me anyway)...

However, there is a recognition of your words that I can remember from poems which I have read previously and although the opening punches me and wakes me up, it doesn't drag me or carry me through the rest of the sentiment...I really feel like there is a totally original feeling here, but it hangs back and allows you to use words which have been over-used to do your speaking for you...

I would really love to hear you dominate such vernacular - to really express what you want to express, rather than let what you have heard before in other poems creep into your work...

Look, I know I sound like a highschool teacher and I know that one can never accomplish total originality, but the fact is that to express onesself totally, one MUST touch ones' audience in ways which they have never been touched before.

You have opened doors to worlds and sensations which I have never seen opened before. However, Your presentation of them makes these worlds seem like worlds and representations with which I am familiar...

I cannot profess to be a master of poetry - I am a fiction writer, but I do know when Art takes control of me and though your opening took me and demnded my atention, the rest of your poem felt - to me - a little derivative...

I suppose, in closing, I feel the sentiment with which you began, but I lost it by the end.

[Deimos]

Hmm, upon re-reading it a few times I have decided (contrary to my last poost) that I quite like the way you use "pinpricks" and "shreds" to describe your feelings of hope and "glimmers" and "shimmering dawn" for the realisation that this love is unrequited. It's like you're saying that the hope was painful and that now you've given up hope you are refreshed and you can see a new beginning ("shimmering dawn"). However, this gets a bit more complicated with the last four lines, because they are almost contradicting what you have said by saying that, in fact, there are still pinpricks of hope that you need to hide away. In which case I'm unsure of what you mean by "But who can escape the day?" - is the "day" the "shimmering dawn"? Or is the day something completely different that will cast light on your "dark thoughts" and send them painfully back?

Or am I completely overanalysing this?

Also, I like the effect of starting off with "Day by day" and then a little later having "One by one" because they almost refer back to each other - I think that works nicely.

[Something Fast]

the right kind of clay is the basis for good pottery.

Shhhh.... you're supposed to let people think you're being enlightened and cryptic...
Think little grey guy with long hair and a beard sitting on top of a pointy mountain dispensing advice to pilgrims sort of thing.

[Deimos]

the right kind of clay is the basis for good pottery.

That post reminds me of this (http://forums.zgeek.com/showthread.php?p=246818) thread. Ahh, the nostalgia - That old nosedog sure was entertaining.