Email: Motorcyclist Telling Drivers Off.

[StygiaN]

I recieved this in an email yesterday. I thought it was interesting enough to post up here, seeing there is a fair few two wheel monkey's on these forums.

To My Dear Car Driving Brethren,

Seven years ago I ridded myself of the tin top and became a motorcyclist. On occasions when Her Kia-Rio-ness allows me to drive Her Precious, I am struck by what a disconnected environment a car really is: air con, radio, mobile phone et al. to fiddle with or cause distraction.
I?m not without sympathy for you when you aren?t at your absolute best on the road because I know you are not setting out to kill me, but folks?it sure can look that way.
Rather than road rage you, kick your doors or frighten you as some of my leather-clad brothers and sisters are wont to do, I will instead take this special time to offer you some handy DIY hints:

Don't creep.
When you are turning out of a side street, whether left or right, don't creep out as I ride towards you. It makes me sweat blood. Blood I?ll need if you do pull out. You might have seen me, but creeping sure makes it look like you haven't.

Use your indicators.
My late father was guilty of selective indicator use. It was a value judgement he made. If he thought no one was around he'd "do a drift". He's not here for me to yell at, so you, gentle reader, must cop this: I AM AROUND, AND LANE DRIFTS ARE SCARY AND DANGEROUS! In return, I will position myself in your mirrors as best I can. I know we motorcyclists have a knack for getting in your blind spot. Sorry ?bout that.

I need my own lane.
I?m a caring, sharing kinda guy, but when it comes to my lane, I demand all of it. I need to move left and right to get in other drivers? mirrors, avoid cavernous potholes, oil and gravel etc., so I don?t appreciate it when you pop two wheels (or more) into my lane. And that also applies when you want to go around a parked car. You can?t just indicate and pull into my lane. It upsets and saddens me. A lot.

Don't turn in front of me.
One problem too many people have (and pedestrians?I am including you in this) is judging the distance and speed of an oncoming motorbike. This is a daily source of worry for motorcyclists and represents a high proportion of overall motorcycle/car ?get togethers?. I hate approaching an intersection when I am on my own and cars are looking to turn right in front of me. Once again?no creeping as I approach. Give me eye contact, as I need to stare into your soul to see if you are all set to launch me over your bonnet. DON'T stare at my headlight to help you judge my speed. It's an established fact that it can hypnotize you into thinking you can make it when you can?t. And when the lights go red and you are back in the queue, don?t try to sneak through on the red. In my experience, you are too focused on ?going the sneak?, and as a result you might find me face first through your windscreen, where I?ll make an appalling mess of your upholstery.

Let me split at the lights.
Yes, I know it is annoying when I sneak through the gap between cars at red lights and then go all the way to pole position. As I risk my life with every journey, the least you can do is make room for me to get to the front at the lights. I need to get away first. It's important. In return, I won't lane split once we are in motion, won?t take off your mirrors, and I certainly won't split at 150km/h on the freeway just to freak you out.

Never, ever talk on your mobile.
This is the only time you will boil my blood. When I am doing my daily commute, the person driving for 5 kms with a flashing indicator, lane drifting, and generally making a nuisance of themselves is all too often on their mobile phone. If I catch up to you when you do this, words will be exchanged. Harsh words. Perhaps the odd expletive. You will not have an excuse. And no, the hands-free unit just makes it look like you are not on the phone, but your mind is NOT on the job. Pull over and talk to your caller and you won?t have to talk to me.

Don?t drive a four-wheel drive.
Nothing to add there. Just don?t. Ever.

Get a bike yourself.
If you really want to improve your driving, ride a bike of any description. It will do you good to Get The Fear. Might stop you inadvertently dishing it out. As an added bonus, you will join a world where rising fuel prices are no big deal and tolls are a bother that other people pay on your behalf.
Til next we meet on them there roads, take care.
It?s rather important to me.

Regards,
Tom Reynolds



StygiaN says: I thought it was a great article/piece of writing, some awesome points there (except for the last one) but I wasn't a huge fan of the way the author gets his point across. Are all motorcyclists this elitist and holier than thou or is Tom Reynolds an oddity? It's not an us vs them thing, we all share the road together.

Anyhoo
Dave

[dwarfthrower]

Are all motorcyclists this elitist and holier than thou

I think most of them share the "Only motorcyclists know what they're doing on the roads, therefore all the stupid stuff that motorcyclists do is OK because we can handle it, but all the stupid stuff that car drivers do is up there with kiddy-fiddling and voting liberal in the list of sins." attitude.

The stupid stuff that car drivers do is more apparent because there are 10 - 50 times more cars than motorcycles on any given stretch of road at any point in time. If you break down the numbers, the ratio of stupid motorcyclists to stupid car drivers is probably around the same.

[repeat]

I aggree with what tony said just not the way he got the point across. There are some car drivers that just don't care about us bike riders. At the Toy Run last Sunday I saw several cars trying to cut into our lane, obviously they did not see the 10 thousand bikes, police escorts, red lights, tv cameras and the channel 9 chopper filming us.

Some have the mentality that cars have the right of way and bikes don't.

[DumHed]

the fact is that a large number of motorcyclists are idiots, and they certainly don't invoke feelings of respect in drivers on the road.

Motorcylists are always sitting in peoples' blind spots, or cruising slowly past cars while in heavy traffic - when the drivers are all wanting to change lanes to get ahead slightly. Bikes are hard to see when there's a lot going on around the car, so I can't understand why riders place themselves in positions of such high risk.
The same goes for tailgating. The only space a rider has control of is the gap between them and the vehicle in front. Since that space has to be the safely zone for anything that happens beside or behind as well, it has to be a large space! Why then do riders insist on riding a metre behind the rear corner of a car, giving themselves no room to move in an emergency, and unsettling the driver in front - which reduces their concentration and increases the likelihood of them doing something unexpected when they realise they're about to run into something, accidentally gone a few k's over the speed limit, or are about to miss their turn.
When it comes to lane splitting, I often see a rider wobbling through the rows of cars, coming very close to damaging vehicles, bumping mirrors, and generally looking very unstable, only to be stuck in the middle of two rows of cars taking off because the light has gone green before they get to the front.
Then there are the ones who make it to the front, but take off really slowly when the light goes green, or do a big wobble on take off that scares the hell out of the driver who thinks a motorcyclist is about to fall straight under their car.

The problem with motorcyclists is that they think that cars are the problem, when really there are fundamental reasons why bikes are less visible, less predictable, less safe, and generally harder to deal with on the road. Couple that with the majority of bike riders (at least the noticed majority) being complete morons on the road, and it's easy to see why there's a personality clash between drivers and riders.
I've been both, does that make me skitzo? :P

[Juice Biscuit]

Don't creep.
When you are turning out of a side street, whether left or right, don't creep out as I ride towards you. It makes me sweat blood. Blood I?ll need if you do pull out. You might have seen me, but creeping sure makes it look like you haven't.


When I become Prime Minister, this shall be punishable by being tied up on public display, with electrodes attached to your genetalia, while a bull dyke points at you with a smoke hanging out of her mouth.

[thingy]

StygiaN says: I thought it was a great article/piece of writing, some awesome points there (except for the last one) but I wasn't a huge fan of the way the author gets his point across. Are all motorcyclists this elitist and holier than thou or is Tom Reynolds an oddity? It's not an us vs them thing, we all share the road together.
It is hard not to get as elitist and holier than thou due to what is required to ride a bike. Let me try to explain.

How many car drivers try to keep a constant eye on the position of every car around them similar to a radar screen in your mind. How many car drivers try to analise the faces of every single person around them whose face can be seen to try and determine threat factor? How many car drivers try to constantly predict what every car around them is going to do? How many car drivers try to keep a constant list of all possible escape routes should someone try to "share your lane" or do something you did not predict (We do not have a protective cage, so we have to use someone elses)? How many car drivers try to do the afore mentioned two things and combine them to find the best place in their lane to ride, constantly moving from one side to the other, backwards and forwards in the flow of the traffic for maximum safety? How many car drivers are constantly scanning for cracks, bumps, oil, pebbles etc on the road so they can try to avoid it (you have four wheels, you lose traction in one, you continue driving. You lose traction in two, you continue driving. We only have two wheels, we lose one, we crash)? How many car drivers have any concern what so ever as to whether the vehicles around you even know you are there, and have to ponder whether they need to do something to make themself visible or not?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to do all these things constantly, hence why I kept saying "try to constantly". I would say it is a safe bet that the above describes about 95% of motorcycle riders, and only 40% of car drivers at most.

Before you cagers come back at me saying you pay this much attention to these things when driving, stop and think about it for a few minutes. Is it ALL the time, or only when you want to change lanes or turn that you look around and try to figure out the cars around you, your safety levels etc. When driving along in traffic, is it more than just the cars ahead of you (or to the side, but ahead) that you pay any attention to, or is it those behind and behind to the sides as well?

After having to do all this all the time, and constantly dealing with cars that "didn't see you, mate" due to either looking but not registering in their mind you were there, or simply not looking at all, is it any wonder we tend to get a little elitist about our piloting abilities?

... of course, then we go and screw it all up by being smartarses and lanesplitting or doing other such stupid things, making you all think as badly of us as we do of you. It is a no-win situation. [sigh]

Let me split at the lights.
Yes, I know it is annoying when I sneak through the gap between cars at red lights and then go all the way to pole position. As I risk my life with every journey, the least you can do is make room for me to get to the front at the lights. I need to get away first. It's important. In return, I won't lane split once we are in motion, won?t take off your mirrors, and I certainly won't split at 150km/h on the freeway just to freak you out.
I thought I would elaborate on this point, he does not explain why. Let us past, because we have to concentrate so much harder, it is EASIER for us to be at the front as there are less cars around us, less threats, it gives our minds a bit of a well earned brake so we can concentrate as hard as we need to again once the traffic is surrounding us once more.

Couple that with the majority of bike riders (at least the noticed majority) being complete morons on the road, and it's easy to see why there's a personality clash between drivers and riders.
This is precisely where the "holier than thou" attitude comes crashing down. Too many bike riders are hoons. Hell, just look at the power to weight ratio, the acceleration, the top speeds, and how thrilling bikes must be cornering. Even your standard 250cc bikes can out-accelerate most cars, let alone the 600cc, 750cc and 1L bikes. There are too many wankers out there on bikes who are nothing more than hoons, just like the majority of those in high powered cars, except these are on high powered bikes. Complete and utter wankers, darwin candidates, the difference being you get a MUCH higher percentage of people like this on bikes so it is easier for them to make us look bad.

[chip256]

/offtopic

hmmm, wonder if he's a relation of mine.

/ontopic

Well, thankfully i'm not a cyclist (motor or otherwise). Car drivers are inconsiderate of wheel-challenged people :).

As a driver of a slow car (rarely exceeding 90), I would like to add one more.

Please refrain from overtaking
There's nothing more annoying (or dangerous) in my oppinion than spotting someone flying up in the other lane when you're on the 'merge right' arrows. Trucks are particularly bad with this, although many idiots don't realise that if they don't have to overtake me when they were planning on turning off anyway.

This is particularly evident on the turnoff to Bellingen from the Pacific highway. I am regularly run off the road by idiots who don't realise that there's a an overtaking lane in the 80 zone just around the corner.

Also, idiots speed up to overtake me just so they can get 5m in front of me by the time they turn off on the other side of the bridge. Sure, you may want to get in front of me so I don't slow you down, but if you have to nearly wipe my nose off with your tailgate, is it really worth it?

[banga]

most bikers treat other drivers real good , they seem to know that them verses 2 ton car = pain , however just the other day (yeah i know same old story) i was driving to brissie to start work , when i got to oxley flats just after the merging lane about 100 meters after i was in right lane and saw this dude on a big arse road bike that sounded like a v8 lol maybe a ducati come screaming up the inside of the left hand lane between the crash barrier and the cars (3 feet max safe distance ) he then kicked it in the balls and had that fucker up on one wheel ..still bettween barrier and traffic and took off till he found a gap , i have to say that was so fucking dangerous it wasnt funny , some people on bikes need a head on to wake them up :swear:

[dwarfthrower]

I had a good compare and contrast experience during last night's drive home. I was behind Bike #1... the rider was doing all the right things (IMHO). Sitting a reasonable distance behind the car in front, positioned steadily in the middle of the lane where he could be seen. Wasn't splitting lanes even when traffic was at a standstill. Bike #2 came screaming up behind me courtesy of the two cars behind having left 3 feet between them and the footpath, sat 2 feet off my rear bumper jumping from side to side like he couldn't decide whether he liked my left-hand or right-hand blind spot better. He stayed there for about thirty seconds before impatience got the better of him and he decided to split between myself and the car on my right, race up and cut back in, in front of Bike #1 who was then forced to take evasive action to avoid a collision.

[lowededwookie]

I thought it was a great article/piece of writing, some awesome points there (except for the last one) but I wasn't a huge fan of the way the author gets his point across. Are all motorcyclists this elitist and holier than thou or is Tom Reynolds an oddity? It's not an us vs them thing, we all share the road together.

It's not that we're elitist but instead this is actually a valid point.

If a car driver was forced to ride a motorcycle for a while then their whole perception of the road and its environment will change.

When I ride I ride with the idea that all drivers are out there to kill me. I don't say this in some form of elitist pride but if I think that this is the case then I do everything in my power to remain seen by the driver but more than that I force myself to be more aware of my surroundings.

A rider who rides often can develop a sort of sense that allows them to react quicker. It's not a sixth sense thing but due to the fact that they are more aware of their surroundings simply because they are keeping an eye out for stupid drivers who have the potential to make things extremely nasty for riders.

I've had many a close call with dillholes who can't seem to think about what they're doing on the road.

One example I have is I saw a ute in the opposite lane to me indicating to come into my lane (a couple of cars in front). I in turn decided to take his spot to which I did, however this prat must have seen me in his mirror and must have thought I was driving up the middle so he pulls back into his original lane. Unfortunately I was now sitting in this lane and I was forced into the verge which was actually only about a bike width in size.

Had he just carried on doing what he was originally going to do then there would never have been a problem.

If it seems that we are trying to be elitist in our views of drivers then please understand that it's an attitude that can save our lives. We need to act this way because there are some very shocking drivers out there. I've seen drivers change lanes right in front of a bloody truck. They simply do not look in their mirrors.

BTW, a blind spot can be reduced if you just look over your shoulder.

[petesh]

so, you were wanting to occupy a piece of road that still had a car there?

[dwarfthrower]

If a car driver was forced to ride a motorcycle for a while then their whole perception of the road and its environment will change.
Probably... but, truth be told... no-one is "forced" to ride a motorcycle. Motorcyclists "choose" to ride motorcycles.

When I ride I ride with the idea that all drivers are out there to kill me. I don't say this in some form of elitist pride but if I think that this is the case then I do everything in my power to remain seen by the driver but more than that I force myself to be more aware of my surroundings.
Which is a good and healthy attitude to take, given that you've made the choice to put yourself on an unenclosed, unprotected and much smaller vehicle compared to the majority of road users.

A rider who rides often can develop a sort of sense that allows them to react quicker. It's not a sixth sense thing but due to the fact that they are more aware of their surroundings simply because they are keeping an eye out for stupid drivers who have the potential to make things extremely nasty for riders.
Anybody who does the same thing on a regular basis tends to get better at it. Whether they are riding a bike or driving a car. Most of the stupid things that car drivers do, affect car drivers as well. It's just that the consequences for motorcyclists tend to be far greater than for motorists. Which is one of the trade-offs you make when you choose to ride.

If it seems that we are trying to be elitist in our views of drivers then please understand that it's an attitude that can save our lives. We need to act this way because there are some very shocking drivers out there. I've seen drivers change lanes right in front of a bloody truck. They simply do not look in their mirrors.
Don't disagree at all... It's the notion that _only_ motorcyclists are capable of developing proper awareness on the roads, _only_ motorcyclists that are affected by people's shitty driving, and that _only_ car drivers are the problem, which comes across (albeit most likely unintentionally) that gets the goat of a lot of drivers out there.

BTW, a blind spot can be reduced if you just look over your shoulder.
Which I do whenever I need to change lanes - twice - more often than not. However it's not feasible to look over both shoulders as often as I check my mirrors when not merging or changing lanes. And If I need to move across the lane I'm in to avoid a pothole or somesuch then any motorcyclist using a quarter of my lane as their own personal express lane is going to pretty much get what's coming to them.

[lowededwookie]

so, you were wanting to occupy a piece of road that still had a car there?

Nope, he had started moving into the other lane before turning back in.

[petesh]

Understandable, but I bet you never make the same move again.

I learnt early not to rely on other drivers. When I first started driving I rear ended a car. I was turning left into one of those 'turn at an time' corners. The car ahead of me took off, I looked right to check for traffic, nothing was there, so I accelerated. While my head was turned (for maybe 3/4 of a second), the car in front of me had come to a complete stop, and I hit it. I still don't know why it stopped, as the road was completely empty.

So I'm now always waiting for the unexpected, and haven't made the same mistake since.

[lowededwookie]

Probably... but, truth be told... no-one is "forced" to ride a motorcycle. Motorcyclists "choose" to ride motorcycles.

True that is. What I'm getting at is that most drivers don't think about other people on the road.

If they're prepared to do some dumbass manouvre in front of a truck which is many times bigger than them, then what chance do we riders have?


Which is a good and healthy attitude to take, given that you've made the choice to put yourself on an unenclosed, unprotected and much smaller vehicle compared to the majority of road users.

I don't deny that I've made the choice but people should respect my choice.

The thing that pisses me off about drivers is that they look down on us as though we are some insane freaks who deserve to die.

When you're on the road you should respect ALL road users and not just those that are bigger than you and can mess you up.

Don't disagree at all... It's the notion that _only_ motorcyclists are capable of developing proper awareness on the roads, _only_ motorcyclists that are affected by people's shitty driving, and that _only_ car drivers are the problem, which comes across (albeit most likely unintentionally) that gets the goat of a lot of drivers out there.

I didn't really mean it that way, it's more that we're forced into it and we are the only ones that seem to develop the awareness because we KNOW that our lives are in danger and awareness is the key to our safety.

Drivers seem to be complacent and that's where the danger lies, not in whether or not you're in a box or in nothing more than leather/Cordura.

I'm a firm believer in safety being 100% state of mind and therefore I actually feel safer on the bike than in a car. Simply because when I'm riding my full attention is on the road in front of me, not with things like the radio et al.


Which I do whenever I need to change lanes - twice - more often than not. However it's not feasible to look over both shoulders as often as I check my mirrors when not merging or changing lanes.

Thank you. You only need to check over your shoulder when changing lanes otherwise the mirrors are fine. Most people don't look in the mirrors let alone over their shoulder. But looking over the shoulder allows you to see anyone beside you. Everyone should do this but they don't.

Luckily I can generally predict what people are going to do, all because of that awareness thing.

[dwarfthrower]

When you're on the road you should respect ALL road users and not just those that are bigger than you and can mess you up.

Agree 110%. I think that just about sums it up. How we go about getting everybody to put it into practice is a whole other matter.

[lowededwookie]

Understandable, but I bet you never make the same move again.

I learnt early not to rely on other drivers. When I first started driving I rear ended a car. I was turning left into one of those 'turn at an time' corners. The car ahead of me took off, I looked right to check for traffic, nothing was there, so I accelerated. While my head was turned (for maybe 3/4 of a second), the car in front of me had come to a complete stop, and I hit it. I still don't know why it stopped, as the road was completely empty.

So I'm now always waiting for the unexpected, and haven't made the same mistake since.

I do wait until they've made their move now, just because I don't want to have another accident (that incident never resulted in anything more than an increase of hearbeat but I have had a motorcycle crash which was caused by a car - go figure).

I can generally predict what a driver is going to do but I was never prepared for what that guy did. I am now though. :)

[StygiaN]

Nope, he had started moving into the other lane before turning back in.

That probably wasn't the best example to use.

[Cubane]

Interesting that this thread has come up. I was recently reading this study into motorcycle related accidents. http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2004/maids.htm basically says that whether riding or driving a car motorcycle licence holders are on average better motorists. Also says alot of accidents involving bikes are the result of car drivers not seeing them there.

I think alot of what the original post is about is making sure a rider is as visible as possible.

[lowededwookie]

That probably wasn't the best example to use.

Kind of was because the way I see it the incident wouldn't have happened if the person was actually thinking about what was going on.

Had he realised that I was going to occupy the space he had just left then he only needed to carry on the manouvre he had already started.

It's part of the point I was trying to make in that a lot of drivers do not think about what they are doing and so when something like this happens they freak and end up making a complete mess of things.

Even if I was riding up the middle he should have realised that I had every ability to stop.

That's another thing about bikes. Bikes are smaller and their inherent instability actually works for them. A bike can out accelerate, out brake, and out manouvre any car on the road and therefore in many respects is safer than cars.

Couple that with thinking ability and the bike becomes a contradiction to the notion that motorcycles are dangerous.

[dwarfthrower]

Interesting that this thread has come up. I was recently reading this study into motorcycle related accidents. http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2004/maids.htm

Interesting article... pity that some sort of membership is required to read the actual report.

basically says that whether riding or driving a car motorcycle licence holders are on average better motorists.
No it doesn't:

Accidents primarily caused by car drivers failing to perceive a motorcyclist were twice as likely to involve a driver who had never held a motorcycle licence compared to those that have.
Given the number of people who have car licences but have never ridden a bike, I would have actually expected that figure to be significantly higher.

If one third of "failure to percieve" accidents are being caused by people who have riding experience, and the number of car drivers on the road who have riding experience is nowhere near one third, what does that tell you?

Findings also mentioned that 50% of the accidents were primarily caused by human error on behalf of the car driver. Over 70% of these errors resulted from the car driver failing to perceive the motorcyclist.
Very few accidents are caused by anything other than human error on _someone's_ behalf. If half the accidents are being caused by the car drivers, who are the other half being caused by?

Well, according to the article, 37% are caused by the motorcyclist.

In 37% of the accidents investigated the primary causation was human error on the part of the motorcyclist.

Which, given the number of cars on the roads compared to the number of motorcycles, and therefore the likelyhood of any given motorcycle being hit by a car in any circumstance compared to the likelyhood of any given car hitting a motorcycle, is a little higher than one would predict.

Also says alot of accidents involving bikes are the result of car drivers not seeing them there.
70% of 50% is 35%, which is less than the number of accidents being caused by the motorcyclists themselves. The article doesn't state whether the accidents caused by drivers failing to percieve the motorcyclist were in any way influenced by the motorcyclist positioning themselves such that it made them difficult to percieve.

I think alot of what the original post is about is making sure a rider is as visible as possible.
Funnily enough though, it doesn't mention anything like wearing high-visibility clothing. Drivers might more easily percieve a bright orange motorcyclist than one that dresses in the same colour as the road.

[Asmodeus]

To which Some of have the reply, section by section

To My Dear Car Driving Brethren,

Seven years ago I ridded myself of the tin top and became a motorcyclist. On occasions when Her Kia-Rio-ness allows me to drive Her Precious, I am struck by what a disconnected environment a car really is: air con, radio, mobile phone et al. to fiddle with or cause distraction.
I?m not without sympathy for you when you aren?t at your absolute best on the road because I know you are not setting out to kill me, but folks?it sure can look that way.
Rather than road rage you, kick your doors or frighten you as some of my leather-clad brothers and sisters are wont to do, I will instead take this special time to offer you some handy DIY hints:


True to point, but thats why most humans are capable of multitasking. Further, we are not hampered by such little annoyances as much in our cars from things like hard shelled bugs flying into us, the weather, uneven roads, obstacles, balancing or popping a wheelie if i accelerate too hard, so please excuse me for thinking that you are just as distracted as me.

Don't creep.
When you are turning out of a side street, whether left or right, don't creep out as I ride towards you. It makes me sweat blood. Blood I?ll need if you do pull out. You might have seen me, but creeping sure makes it look like you haven't.

Remember to practice what you preach, those people do the same to me so you're not alone, but please, lets not be paranoid, they're not solely out to get just you.

Use your indicators.
My late father was guilty of selective indicator use. It was a value judgement he made. If he thought no one was around he'd "do a drift". He's not here for me to yell at, so you, gentle reader, must cop this: I AM AROUND, AND LANE DRIFTS ARE SCARY AND DANGEROUS! In return, I will position myself in your mirrors as best I can. I know we motorcyclists have a knack for getting in your blind spot. Sorry ?bout that.

Please see above, they are a public menace and just as dangerous to us since they take us by surprise and tend to make us to a radical emergency manouver as well.

I need my own lane.
I?m a caring, sharing kinda guy, but when it comes to my lane, I demand all of it. I need to move left and right to get in other drivers? mirrors, avoid cavernous potholes, oil and gravel etc., so I don?t appreciate it when you pop two wheels (or more) into my lane. And that also applies when you want to go around a parked car. You can?t just indicate and pull into my lane. It upsets and saddens me. A lot.

Thats nice, and most of us have no problem letting you have your own spot in a lane, but damnit man, stay in it unless you have to move out of it. While I'm surely not accusing you, oh paragon of motorcycle driving skill and courtesy, your dear 2-wheeled bretheren seem to think that since they are extremely manouverable due to the construction of their vehicle that they can at any given moment wkip inbetween 2 vehicles to get into another spot ahead of us. Please refrain from this activity as it will cause most to just about drop a cuban steamer in their underpants for fear of hitting you, but also for you own safety since there will be that one tiem you misjudge or get a guy who is tired of it and might just squish you like a bug. As the person doing this dangerous manouver, you will also be the one at fault in teh accident, not the car.

Don't turn in front of me.
One problem too many people have (and pedestrians?I am including you in this) is judging the distance and speed of an oncoming motorbike. This is a daily source of worry for motorcyclists and represents a high proportion of overall motorcycle/car ?get togethers?. I hate approaching an intersection when I am on my own and cars are looking to turn right in front of me. Once again?no creeping as I approach. Give me eye contact, as I need to stare into your soul to see if you are all set to launch me over your bonnet. DON'T stare at my headlight to help you judge my speed. It's an established fact that it can hypnotize you into thinking you can make it when you can?t. And when the lights go red and you are back in the queue, don?t try to sneak through on the red. In my experience, you are too focused on ?going the sneak?, and as a result you might find me face first through your windscreen, where I?ll make an appalling mess of your upholstery.

Happens to the best of us buddy, we people in cars have to deal with the same, and you guys on two wheels are just as bad with this.

Let me split at the lights.
Yes, I know it is annoying when I sneak through the gap between cars at red lights and then go all the way to pole position. As I risk my life with every journey, the least you can do is make room for me to get to the front at the lights. I need to get away first. It's important. In return, I won't lane split once we are in motion, won?t take off your mirrors, and I certainly won't split at 150km/h on the freeway just to freak you out.

Let me phrase this as gently as possible. Hell Fucking No. We have to wait in line, so do you. Not only is this smacking of cutting in front of line, which would infuriate you in mcdonalds, but also runs the risk damaging my car not to mention its extremely rude behavior. You have no reason to be in front, its simple. when teh car in front of you pulls away, follow him. We gave you your lane and space in it, please remain in it like the rest of us.

Never, ever talk on your mobile.
This is the only time you will boil my blood. When I am doing my daily commute, the person driving for 5 kms with a flashing indicator, lane drifting, and generally making a nuisance of themselves is all too often on their mobile phone. If I catch up to you when you do this, words will be exchanged. Harsh words. Perhaps the odd expletive. You will not have an excuse. And no, the hands-free unit just makes it look like you are not on the phone, but your mind is NOT on the job. Pull over and talk to your caller and you won?t have to talk to me.

Evangelize elsewhere please. BTW, shouldn't your eyes be on teh road and not looking for the odd cell phone offender oh avenger of the private communication airwaves? Meanwhile, isn't that big bulky helmet impeding your side vision and hearing?

Don?t drive a four-wheel drive.
Nothing to add there. Just don?t. Ever.

Please see above, and fuck you very much for your opinion, we don't care.

Get a bike yourself.
If you really want to improve your driving, ride a bike of any description. It will do you good to Get The Fear. Might stop you inadvertently dishing it out. As an added bonus, you will join a world where rising fuel prices are no big deal and tolls are a bother that other people pay on your behalf.
Til next we meet on them there roads, take care.
It?s rather important to me.

Sorry, I'm not crazy, and besides, I can't exactly haul the stuff I need on that little contracption you have.


Regards,
Tom Reynolds


Please remember oh stability impaired vehicle rider that you are more manouverable, have much faster acceleration and braking than us. Most of us don't care whats going on in your head since 2 tons of steel has teh right of way over 200 lbs of metal and plastic. It's just the law of physics, and try as we might, we haven't found a way to break that yet. Also on misguided motorcyclist that the road is for everyone, not just you. there are a lot more of us on it than you are, so keep in mind that when in rome, do as teh romans do. We would like to see you as an equal and thus will treat you like one, so your request to have special priveleges over is we must politely decline.

Thank you, have a nice day and sorry about that whole driving in teh rain bit.
signed
Everybody

[DumHed]

A bike can out accelerate, out brake, and out manouvre any car on the road and therefore in many respects is safer than cars.


A motorcycle can certainly out accelerate a car, but they can't out brake, or out manouvre a car - especially at high speeds, or in poor conditions.

A bike can't brake hard while swerving, and can't swerve hard to avoid an obstacle if the road surface is bad, or even if there's a small pothole right in the required path. A can can also swerve multiple times much more effectively.
A bike can swerve in one direction from a straight line quite quickly, but swerving back the other way again to avoid running off the road can be much more difficult.

[Asmodeus]

makes you wonder why people would drive such uncontrolable and unstable rolling death traps.

[BlueBoy]

You only need to drive down the Monash Freeway to see the "We need a lane to ourselves" argument thrown right out the window.

[DumHed]

The problem is that bikes do need a whole lane to themselves to allow enough space for normal riding.
Like any two wheeled vehicle, motorcycles need a fair amount of room to move side to side as part of maintining stability, and to avoid small obstacles.

Bike riders often like to demonstrate that they can fit in small spaces, or ride side by side though, which tells other people that they're capable of it, even though it's extremely dangerous.

[lowededwookie]

It's so ammusing to me that a person who has never ridden a motorcycle can say that a motorcycle is extremely dangerous. How the hell do you know if you've never ridden a motorcycle before? What are you basing your knowledge on?

PREJUDICE that's what.

Because we ride in a style that seems dangerous therefore we are a public menace and are crazy as hell. Your logic is faulty at best because you look at a motorcycle and apply the rules of car physics to a bike, something that is completely different by all standards to a car.

It was mentioned that we ride up the middle to get to the front of the queue merely because if we can get ahead of cars we don't have to concentrate as much as when there are cars in front of us. Kudos to they who mentioned that. It is safer for us to be in front of you than behind merely because a clear road allows us to just get on with the job of riding. There are many dangers on the road that affect us without having the need of a driver who can't make up their mind as to what they want to do, or drive too slow, or accelerate from an intersection with the speed of a freaking turtle.

Speed is always something that drivers complain about with us zapping past them at some rate that they poo their pants. My reply to that aside from using your right foot to increase the speed of your vehicle due to you driving like a granny is PHYSICS.

Cars have four wheels in a box formation making them stable at any speed. Bikes have two wheels in a line formation meaning that at slow speeds a bike has a tendancy to want to fall over. The faster a bike goes (to a certain limit) the more stable a bike is. Therefore if you want to travel at 70Km/h down the road when the limit is 100Km/h, then I want to get past you because it is my right to be allowed to be safe and stable. Therefore I will try to employ methods such as above to remain safe and stable.

Taking slow corners at high speeds is NOT necessarily an insane thing due to the physics of riding a two wheeled vehicle. When a bike turns it has very little front tyre touching the road (this is caused by counter-steering which EVERY rider does, take note all you proponents of body steering - even when you body steer you will counter-steer). The lack of tyre on the road actually makes the bike turn quicker therefore corners can be taken at high speeds (I've taken a 60Km/h corner at 110Km/h and actually been oversteering). Of course there is still a limit there.

All you drivers that have never ridden, please do not make rash comments about the safety of bikes when you've never been on a bike as either a rider or a pillion. It only serves to make you look like a dork. I recommend that you at least ride pillion to experience a ride. But if you do remember one thing because it's extremely important. When you ride pillion lean the same way as the rider. Leaning the opposite way to the rider merely to get a better view of what's going on will only serve to do one thing, cause the bike to go straight ahead as opposed to going around the corner, and it will also mean having a helmet smash into your face because you're a cock. :)

[StygiaN]

Asmodeus. I didn't write that article. I hope you weren't getting angry at me ;)

I was just passing the info on.

[thingy]

Which I do whenever I need to change lanes - twice - more often than not. However it's not feasible to look over both shoulders as often as I check my mirrors when not merging or changing lanes. And If I need to move across the lane I'm in to avoid a pothole or somesuch then any motorcyclist using a quarter of my lane as their own personal express lane is going to pretty much get what's coming to them.
That scenario I would class as an accident. You needed to avoid it, did not have the time to do all the required checks. However, you should have been aware of where other vehicles were. If there was a car in the lane next to you, you would have hit that too and should have been aware of it and better escape routes. This is what I try to do all the time on the bike, but nowhere near as much when I am driving a car. All this in mind, as I said at the beginning, there will always be cases where you get caught out and cannot prepare for everything, putting this purely in the accident category.

Your wording tends to make it look like a bike sharing your lane. If that is the case in this ficticious scenario, then the rider is in the wrong for being so close and not looking out for themselves anyway.

Interesting that this thread has come up. I was recently reading this study into motorcycle related accidents. http://www.mcnews.com.au/NewsArchives/2004/maids.htm basically says that whether riding or driving a car motorcycle licence holders are on average better motorists. Also says alot of accidents involving bikes are the result of car drivers not seeing them there.

I think alot of what the original post is about is making sure a rider is as visible as possible.
I would not put too much faith in that articles conclusions nor the study. The results are gathered in Europe which has a much larger amount of scooter riders and in places like Italy they basically ride where ever there is road (or footpath) giving nobody any room etc. This would cause a HUGE distortion to the statistics so its relevance to our roads is negligable.

[dwarfthrower]

Your wording tends to make it look like a bike sharing your lane. If that is the case in this ficticious scenario, then the rider is in the wrong for being so close and not looking out for themselves anyway.

For clarification purposes... that is exactly the scenario I was trying to picture. With me having a need to move within the lane I was currently occupying... not into an adjacent one.

[lowededwookie]

A motorcycle can certainly out accelerate a car, but they can't out brake, or out manouvre a car - especially at high speeds, or in poor conditions.

A bike can't brake hard while swerving, and can't swerve hard to avoid an obstacle if the road surface is bad, or even if there's a small pothole right in the required path. A can can also swerve multiple times much more effectively.
A bike can swerve in one direction from a straight line quite quickly, but swerving back the other way again to avoid running off the road can be much more difficult.

You're kidding me right? A bike has less weight therefore can stop quicker than a car. It's called physics, even the cops can tell you that a bike can out brake a car.

Your average bike weighs what, say 300Kgs as opposed to a car which weighs upwards of 1000Kgs. That means at 1000Km/h the car has to try and stop 1000Kgs whereas a bike only has to stop say 400Kgs (counting for a bulky rider). Inertia is going to be less on a bike than a car therefore it is able to brake quicker.

A bike can definately out manouvre a car due to counter-steer and small size.

I have yet to see a (normal) car swerving controllably at high speeds so your comment seems to have no merit. There is drifting I suppose but a bike can drift better than a car anyway.

Besides a bike can do one thing a car can't... stoppies. A properly execute stoppie can actually allow a rider to avoid any accident. It's not an easy thing to do admittedly but if perfected adds another trick to a rider's arsenal. I've even seen it in action.

[polite]

I have ridden motorbikes, (RD250 Yamaha, Old Kawasaki 900, BMW R1000) and driven cars.The only problem with any form of transport is the human being in control of it. Road attitudes are in line with every other aspect of life, being driven by a shrill current of desperate selfishness.It's all me,me, me and because it's inconceivable that I could be the problem it must be you.This thread is one example of a variation on a common theme. This time it's motorbikes, P-platers are getting a run so what's next?, Aggresive lesbians who lane change when followed by male P-plate drivers in a car above the 115kw per tonne threshold should ride motorbikes to learn how testosterone can be channelled into creating awareness of heterosexual Holden drivers who don't use mobile phones.I can't wait.

[thingy]

True to point, but thats why most humans are capable of multitasking. Further, we are not hampered by such little annoyances as much in our cars from things like hard shelled bugs flying into us, the weather, uneven roads, obstacles, balancing or popping a wheelie if i accelerate too hard, so please excuse me for thinking that you are just as distracted as me.
Shelled bugs get stopped by helmets and protective gear. Big deal, the only people who care about those are squids, and they are darwin candidates anyway. Nobody should be accelerating enough to pop a wheelie accidentally. Weather, uneven roads, obstacles are things ALL road users should be paying attention to and constantly have their eyes out for. Are you saying you do not pay any condition to the road conditions and drive exactly the same all the time, day or not, rain hail or shine?

Those so called "distractions" are things all road users should be aware of. They are road conditions, just another part of keeping aware.

Thats nice, and most of us have no problem letting you have your own spot in a lane, but damnit man, stay in it unless you have to move out of it. While I'm surely not accusing you, oh paragon of motorcycle driving skill and courtesy, your dear 2-wheeled bretheren seem to think that since they are extremely manouverable due to the construction of their vehicle that they can at any given moment wkip inbetween 2 vehicles to get into another spot ahead of us. Please refrain from this activity as it will cause most to just about drop a cuban steamer in their underpants for fear of hitting you, but also for you own safety since there will be that one tiem you misjudge or get a guy who is tired of it and might just squish you like a bug. As the person doing this dangerous manouver, you will also be the one at fault in teh accident, not the car.
We think just as lowly of our 2-wheeled bretheren who do this. Remember to practice what you preach, those people do the same to me so you're not alone, but please, lets not be paranoid, they're not solely out to get just you.

Let me phrase this as gently as possible. Hell Fucking No. We have to wait in line, so do you. Not only is this smacking of cutting in front of line, which would infuriate you in mcdonalds, but also runs the risk damaging my car not to mention its extremely rude behavior. You have no reason to be in front, its simple. when teh car in front of you pulls away, follow him. We gave you your lane and space in it, please remain in it like the rest of us.
I have a few distracted drivers around me, some who like swerving over the road, some who are busier doing their makeup or talking on the phone instead of driving. I try to position myself in the safest possible place so I can avoid such things taking me off the road. Sometimes that means putting a few cars between them and myself. It can be safer for us to get to the front of the line as it means we can take off ahead of the traffic and have less threats around us. A lot of my 2-wheeled brethren are just being impatient smartarses, but some of us are just trying to look after our own skin.

Evangelize elsewhere please. BTW, shouldn't your eyes be on teh road and not looking for the odd cell phone offender oh avenger of the private communication airwaves? Meanwhile, isn't that big bulky helmet impeding your side vision and hearing?
No, it should not be PURELY on the road. As a fellow road user, you should be aware of this. Any and all road users SHOULD be paying attention to the road, the signs, other vehicles around them, AND the drivers of these vehicles to figure out the biggest threat and prepare as best they can for any required manouvers to avoid anything happening. That person is obviously distracted, so I shall keep more distance and prepare for them to merge on top of me without looking due to their distractions. OMFG! I am being proactive in my safety, something ALL road users (yourself included) should do!!!

The "big bulky" helmet only cuts out the widest of my periphery vision. Not very much at all. I counter this by looking around regularly, using my mirrors, and checking my blindspot by turning my head [gasp] just as one should when using the road. Oh, and I do not have all the sound dampening you have or a stereo bleeting out a doof doof soundtrack louder than a 747's engine. Even without the stereo, I still can hear the outside world better than you.

Sorry, I'm not crazy, and besides, I can't exactly haul the stuff I need on that little contracption you have.
Horses for courses my good man.

Please remember oh stability impaired vehicle rider that you are more manouverable, have much faster acceleration and braking than us. Most of us don't care whats going on in your head since 2 tons of steel has teh right of way over 200 lbs of metal and plastic. It's just the law of physics, and try as we might, we haven't found a way to break that yet. Also on misguided motorcyclist that the road is for everyone, not just you. there are a lot more of us on it than you are, so keep in mind that when in rome, do as teh romans do. We would like to see you as an equal and thus will treat you like one, so your request to have special priveleges over is we must politely decline.
No, it does not "have the right of way". It has more inertia, but not the right of way. That is like saying a fat bastard has the right to go straight to the front of the queue in the supermarket. Its relation to the laws of physics does not exist.

The only "special prevelege" that has been requested is a little room at the lights so we can move ahead. The rest is basic road safety which everyone SHOULD follow, but many do not.

Thank you, have a nice day and sorry about that whole being able to park almost everywhere bit.
signed
Everybody with a clue about the road rules and how to drive SAFELY.

[StygiaN]

Cars can do one thing bikes can't, get hit from the side and not throw the driver out of the car. That to me is why cars are safer, it's not a matter of whose fault it is, it's what happens directly after the accident.

[thingy]

The problem is that bikes do need a whole lane to themselves to allow enough space for normal riding.
Like any two wheeled vehicle, motorcycles need a fair amount of room to move side to side as part of maintining stability, and to avoid small obstacles.

Bike riders often like to demonstrate that they can fit in small spaces, or ride side by side though, which tells other people that they're capable of it, even though it's extremely dangerous.
That is one thing that really pisses me off - when I am riding along and another motorcyclist comes up either way too close behind me, or starts sharing my lane. I would like the ability to avoid a bump in the road or this guy next to me should he change lanes without looking thank you very much you cunt.

All motorcyclists, just because we are smaller, if I am in the left hand side of my lane does NOT mean you can come right up behind me but in the right hand side. I would like to be able to brake and swerve to the other side without the fear that you will come right up my arse, so allow me the distance you would if I was a car. Actually, maybe I should request you allow me the distance you SHOULD if I was a car.

[Blink]

Slightly off topic, but I believe that the deepest pit in hell is reserved for Moped riders in London. I don't know if they even have licenses. The bastards do things of such stupidity it would amaze you.

I respect bike riders on the roads (except for aforementioned moped fuckwits), but if I had a $1 for every time a bike has come screaming up in the lane next to me and then for no reason slowed down till they're sitting directly in my blind spot, I'd be a very rich man.

[otaku]

Thats nice, and most of us have no problem letting you have your own spot in a lane, but damnit man, stay in it unless you have to move out of it. While I'm surely not accusing you, oh paragon of motorcycle driving skill and courtesy, your dear 2-wheeled bretheren seem to think that since they are extremely manouverable due to the construction of their vehicle that they can at any given moment wkip inbetween 2 vehicles to get into another spot ahead of us. Please refrain from this activity as it will cause most to just about drop a cuban steamer in their underpants for fear of hitting you, but also for you own safety since there will be that one tiem you misjudge or get a guy who is tired of it and might just squish you like a bug. As the person doing this dangerous manouver, you will also be the one at fault in teh accident, not the car.



Happens to the best of us buddy, we people in cars have to deal with the same, and you guys on two wheels are just as bad with this.



Let me phrase this as gently as possible. Hell Fucking No. We have to wait in line, so do you. Not only is this smacking of cutting in front of line, which would infuriate you in mcdonalds, but also runs the risk damaging my car not to mention its extremely rude behavior. You have no reason to be in front, its simple. when teh car in front of you pulls away, follow him. We gave you your lane and space in it, please remain in it like the rest of us.



Please remember oh stability impaired vehicle rider that you are more manouverable, have much faster acceleration and braking than us. Most of us don't care whats going on in your head since 2 tons of steel has teh right of way over 200 lbs of metal and plastic. It's just the law of physics, and try as we might, we haven't found a way to break that yet. Also on misguided motorcyclist that the road is for everyone, not just you. there are a lot more of us on it than you are, so keep in mind that when in rome, do as teh romans do. We would like to see you as an equal and thus will treat you like one, so your request to have special priveleges over is we must politely decline.

Thank you, have a nice day and sorry about that whole driving in teh rain bit.
signed
Everybody


you are an asshat Amsodeus. It is exactly this " we are bigger than you, so what we say goes" attitude that kills people on the road.

All of the things you mentioned happen to car drivers as well as bike rider, except with a car - a "fender bender" costs you a couple of hundred. With us, a 'fender bender" costs us hospital time or our lives.

Any wonder we are more concerned about it than you?

So what if someone moves to the front of the traffic - how, exactly, does it impact on you? How does it affect your drive/driving time?

It doesnt. It is just you being an asshat, saying "no one deserves to be in front of me". Again - these sort of ideas are what gets people killed.

[lowededwookie]

That is one thing that really pisses me off - when I am riding along and another motorcyclist comes up either way too close behind me, or starts sharing my lane. I would like the ability to avoid a bump in the road or this guy next to me should he change lanes without looking thank you very much you cunt.

All motorcyclists, just because we are smaller, if I am in the left hand side of my lane does NOT mean you can come right up behind me but in the right hand side. I would like to be able to brake and swerve to the other side without the fear that you will come right up my arse, so allow me the distance you would if I was a car. Actually, maybe I should request you allow me the distance you SHOULD if I was a car.

I hear you on that one.

Whenever I ride in a group I always try to ride in staggered formation. It's a safety thing. It allows you to move side to side if need be but also means that if you come off then the rider behind you doesn't ride over you.

It's common sense and it annoys me when riders do stupid things like this.

[lowededwookie]

Please remember oh stability impaired vehicle rider that you are more manouverable, have much faster acceleration and braking than us.

This amuses me. Stability impaired? You know diddly squat about bikes mate.

A bike is only unstable at SLOW speeds. When we're moving and the faster we go then we become more stable.

I've ridden 220Km/h (just to see what it was like) and I can tell you that a bike at that speed is so rock solid that there is no way it will turn.

Learn a thing or two about bike physics before you tell us that we're something that we're not.

[legion]

as someone who has just got their motorcycle L's and is currently getting in the process of getting my first road bike, i thank everyone for this discussion of motorbikes + everyone else sharing the road nicely, as someone who has been driving a car for about ten years and seeing all the fuckwit things done by distracted, asleep or masturbating drivers i hope my time on the bike is a safe one.

[scathing]

You're kidding me right? A bike has less weight therefore can stop quicker than a car. It's called physics

Let me be the first to call bullshit. A car will outbrake a bike any day of the week. If "any cop will tell you bikes outbrake cars" it just goes to show how little cops know about things automotive (as if anyone with a modified vehicle couldn't tell you that already).

And just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean its never happened before. If you want to talk drifting, the Japanese D1 drivers are throwing their cars into bends at 160km/hr+ these days. Lets see a bike get 45 degrees of slip angle and "link" several bends at those speeds (ie snap the slide around the next bend without ever regaining traction), followed by "sway drifting" down a straight, before you call that.

As for braking distances:

From MCNews (http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/Model_Evaluation04021.pdf)

The best 60-0mph that they pulled was 121.38' on a GSX-R1000.

From a brake test for the 350Z (http://www.zeckhausen.com/testing_brakes.htm#Performance%20Model)

The average 60-0mph that they pulled was 118' and this was on the poverty pack 350Z's brakes. With the Brembos, its an average of 117.3' (the main difference is the resistance to fade, not the single stopping distance).

Now the GSX-R1000 is, by all accounts, a proper sports bike that is meant to handle aggressively and do all the "sports" things right while being pretty harsh for touring / commuting.

The 350Z is a fat-ass, middle-of-the-range, kinda sporty but more touring vehicle. The 118' average (which beats the Gixxer's best stopping distance) is from a 1.5 ton vehicle that's using parts bin brakes originally designed for a 1.1 ton car, so the mighty GSX-R is getting outstopped by an underbraked sports tourer.

If you want to compare it to a purpose built, sports car that also sheds comfort for handling (so in terms of orientation and feel is more like the GSX-R), like a Lotus Elise, that 60-0 distance drops to 105'.


The problem with "simple" physics is that its too simple for you to ignore other factors, mainly that compared to a car your average bike is undertyred. As any kind of handling has to, in the end, work with the total amount of grip your tyres can generate these become your limiting factor.

The maximum amount of braking grip a bike can generate, therefore, is far less. Even with the greater mass, ratio-wise the amount of braking grip a car can generate (and the stability under braking) is far better. Lower inertia is great (and a lighter car with the same tyres will outbrake a heavier car, the same for bikes), but as long as your only method of braking solely uses a contact point between tyre and road then all other factors are limited by this bottleneck.

The other thing is that on your modern sports car, you can just jump on the brakes in a panic stop and pull straight up, making those distances repeatable time after time. Even without the ABS, you can sit there with locked tyres and ride it out.

With a bike, a sudden panic grab of the brakes is going to lock up the fronts and its going to start wandering and unsettling the balance, potentially throwing you off. Each stop must be done precisely, so unless you're good enough to be a pro there's going to be a wider variance on your stopping distance.

As for manouvrability, I'd hazard to say that a car has a smaller turning circle than a bike at average speeds. As stated, bikes become unstable at low speeds (whereas cars don't care) while at high speeds the car's longer wheelbase and wider track makes them more stable.

[lowededwookie]

as someone who has just got their motorcycle L's and is currently getting in the process of getting my first road bike, i thank everyone for this discussion of motorbikes + everyone else sharing the road nicely, as someone who has been driving a car for about ten years and seeing all the fuckwit things done by distracted, asleep or masturbating drivers i hope my time on the bike is a safe one.

Welcome to the fold.

Maybe you guys can tell me something.

Has the Learner law where you're allowed up to a 600cc motorcycle came into affect yet? I hope it works out and that the New Zealand government seriously looks into it. Not that it matters much to me because I have my full bike license.

Also, what's the maximum speed you guys are allowed to ride at on your Learner's? Some non-rider dickhead made it 70Km/h on the open road here. I did it once and just about got sucked into a milk tanker who barrelled past me at 120Km/h. Never ridden at that speed since.

Funnily enough the cops were actually pretty good about it too. When I was pulled over for speeding (120 in a 100 zone) by rights they should have taken my license off me and charged me $400 for being 50Km/h over the limit but they just fined me for 20Km/h over the limit.

[scathing]

makes you wonder why people would drive such uncontrolable and unstable rolling death traps.
I thought we were talking about bikes, not SUVs? :confused:

[Merudo]

Welcome to the fold.

Maybe you guys can tell me something.

Has the Learner law where you're allowed up to a 600cc motorcycle came into affect yet? I hope it works out and that the New Zealand government seriously looks into it. Not that it matters much to me because I have my full bike license.



Yep, the LAM scheme (learner approved motorcycles) has been running for a fair while now - check out the RTA site for a huge listing of every available learner-legal bike (some [read:most] are restricted in some way for them to be legal.. but at least it means taller or larger people dont have to get around on something like a CB250 )

:D

[scathing]

It was mentioned that we ride up the middle to get to the front of the queue merely because if we can get ahead of cars we don't have to concentrate as much as when there are cars in front of us. Kudos to they who mentioned that. It is safer for us to be in front of you than behind merely because a clear road allows us to just get on with the job of riding.
.....and there's the "holier than thou" attitude.

First you criticise drivers for their lack of awareness and concentration of the vehicles around them, then you're asking drivers to let motorcyclists into a position where they don't have to concentrate so much on the vehicles around them.

So you don't want to have to concentrate so much on other-vehicle awareness, but you crack the shits when car drivers do what you're wanting to do?

You might want to turn your mobile phone off silent. The pot's been trying to call you for the last half hour, and it hasn't quite gotten the hang of SMSing with its too-large handle.


I don't have an issue with people lane-splitting, as long as they accelerate off the mark faster than I do. The problem is that most street bikers don't, and they really only hook up and pull away when I'm at 30km/hr or so, which means I'm half way to the speed limit and already starting to drop my acceleration. Or I specifically pulled into the front to overtake another vehicle, and then find my opportunity to outlaunch that vehicle is gone.

Before you reply, the last point is not hypocritical. I chose to be in front because I planned on launching faster than the vehicle next to me. Otherwise I would have just sat behind. If you lane split me and sit in front of me, I expect you (being in such a hurry to get to the head of the line) to do the same. When I get bike riders who drop it from the lights in that situation, that's fine. Its when they crawl off from a standstill and stop me from making my overtake, before hooking up and exceeding the speed limit when I've lost my room to overtake, that shits me.

[scathing]

I've ridden 220Km/h (just to see what it was like) and I can tell you that a bike at that speed is so rock solid that there is no way it will turn.

My car turns just fine at 220km/hr, while still being rock solid at the straight-ahead.

My car's also rock solid at 240km/hr, but I didn't bother trying to turn a bend at that pace since:

1. I didn't know what was around it and crashing into the back of a vehicle doing 110km/hr doesn't appeal to me

2. I wasn't racing so there's no point me trying to make the turn and risk crashing it due to my lack of experience cornering at that speed, or clipping a cats eye on the road and unsettling the car


The vehicle would turn at that pace, from the small amounts of steering I fed in.

[lowededwookie]

Let me be the first to call bullshit. A car will outbrake a bike any day of the week. If "any cop will tell you bikes outbrake cars" it just goes to show how little cops know about things automotive (as if anyone with a modified vehicle couldn't tell you that already).

And just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean its never happened before. If you want to talk drifting, the Japanese D1 drivers are throwing their cars into bends at 160km/hr+ these days. Lets see a bike get 45 degrees of slip angle and "link" several bends at those speeds (ie snap the slide around the next bend without ever regaining traction), followed by "sway drifting" down a straight, before you call that.

As for braking distances:

From MCNews (http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/model_eval/Model_Evaluation04021.pdf)

The best 60-0mph that they pulled was 121.38' on a GSX-R1000.

From a brake test for the 350Z (http://www.zeckhausen.com/testing_brakes.htm#Performance%20Model)

The average 60-0mph that they pulled was 118' and this was on the poverty pack 350Z's brakes. With the Brembos, its an average of 117.3' (the main difference is the resistance to fade, not the single stopping distance).

Now the GSX-R1000 is, by all accounts, a proper sports bike that is meant to handle aggressively and do all the "sports" things right while being pretty harsh for touring / commuting.

The 350Z is a fat-ass, middle-of-the-range, kinda sporty but more touring vehicle. The 118' average (which beats the Gixxer's best stopping distance) is from a 1.5 ton vehicle that's using parts bin brakes originally designed for a 1.1 ton car, so the mighty GSX-R is getting outstopped by an underbraked sports tourer.

If you want to compare it to a purpose built, sports car that also sheds comfort for handling (so in terms of orientation and feel is more like the GSX-R), like a Lotus Elise, that 60-0 distance drops to 105'.


The problem with "simple" physics is that its too simple for you to ignore other factors, mainly that compared to a car your average bike is undertyred. As any kind of handling has to, in the end, work with the total amount of grip your tyres can generate these become your limiting factor.

The maximum amount of braking grip a bike can generate, therefore, is far less. Even with the greater mass, ratio-wise the amount of braking grip a car can generate (and the stability under braking) is far better in a car. Lower inertia is great, but as long as your only method of braking solely uses a contact point between tyre and road then all other factors are limited by this bottleneck.

The other thing is that on your modern sports car, you can just jump on the brakes in a panic stop and pull straight up, making those distances repeatable time after time. Even without the ABS, you can sit there with locked tyres and ride it out.

With a bike, a sudden panic grab of the brakes is going to lock up the fronts and its going to start wandering and unsettling the balance, potentially throwing you off. Each stop must be done precisely, so unless you're good enough to be a pro there's going to be a wider variance on your stopping distance.

As for manouvrability, I'd hazard to say that a car has a smaller turning circle than a bike at average speeds. As stated, bikes become unstable at low speeds (whereas cars don't care) while at high speeds the car's longer wheelbase and wider track makes them more stable.

I fail to see this really being the case. I did a road ride course at the Taupo racecourse and part of the course was braking. we had to accelerate from stop then try and brake between the cones which were about 100mtrs apart. I failed to stop the first 2 times because I forgot to put the clutch in thus the bike continued to drive so I ended up pulling a 110mtr stop. But on the 3rd and 4th tries I was getting about 50mtrs. I know that works out more than 120feet but you also have to take into account that I was doing around 130Km/h from stop. Also if you read the article properly the conditions were not favourable

However, during our braking tests, we noted a strong tendency
for the GSX-R to float its rear wheel, a function of its forward weight bias (and perhaps its higher C of G with a full gas tank). Unfortunately, we had less
than ideal conditions, with gusting winds that negatively affected stability
once the rear tire lost contact with the pavement. Despite 19 attempts, our best was a 60–0 braking distance of 121.38', at least 10' longer than we’d anticipated.

If you're full lockup on a bike then that bike is stable as hell. I know I did it which was the wrong thing to do and I paid the price for it with a broken wrist.

A car does NOT have a smaller turning circle. My Suzuki Baleno wagon has a pretty good turning circle for a wagon, in many respects it can actually turn in less circle than a sedan, but my Suzuki RF600RP definately has a smaller turning circle than my wagon so I fail to see where your info is coming from.

When was the last time your car took a 60Km/h corner at 110Km/h and oversteered? Most cars will understeer in those conditions.

I've even seen races between bikes and cars and the bike caned the car out braking, out accelerating, and out cornering the car easily. Both were high powered sports machines with top of the line tires, brakes, etc. Hell, a Britten racing against an F1 car and a helicopter killed the two of them.

There is a lot more grip on a bike's tyre than you are giving them credit for. besides on a car you cannot control the braking like you can on a bike. On a bike you can squeeze the fronts harder to stop quicker and if need be increase the backs to give more stopping all round. In a car it's 70/30 front all the time meaning it has a fixed braking ability.

[scathing]

On the original post, I do feel that bike riders get a pretty shit deal. I get scared enough driving my car around with the mindless shitstains that infest our roads (its gotten even worse now with Christmas coming up, since every asshat out there is either rushing to a party, or driving home drunk from one) - I'd hate to be on a bike.

Having friends that do ride, I always try to be aware of them. I check my mirrors every few seconds as a matter of course, but half the behavioural things the open email mentions applies no matter what the other road users are operating.

Bike riders can fly past me at any speed they like (it takes a lot more than someone else going past me to "freak me out") as long as they leave plenty of room between my vehicle and theirs. Its when you lane-split at speed that I get worried.

However, nothing shits me more than a bike rider who decides to storm up the right lane of a motorway and then cut right in front of me to make an exit, leaving me half a carlength (at 100km/hr) as they cut in and slow down to avoid driving into the vehicle that was in front of me, then get upset when they get "tailgated". Or even shorter distances when doing the same stuff on the street.

If you want the respect that car drivers accord other drivers, then show some in return and earn it. Most people are afraid of what bike riders will do because, as a group, riders are a bunch of fuckwits. And, as evidenced by the current US Government's foreign policy, when the retarded get worried about what fuckwits are doing around them, the end result is always going to ignore the fair and neighbourly principles that decent people apparenty uphold, and lead to bloodshed.

[Cubane]

No it doesn't:


"In multiple vehicle crashes 71% of motorcyclists attempted to avoid the collision. In stark contrast to that figure, 65% of car drivers involved in the accidents studied made no attempt at a collision avoidance maneuver"

71% of motorcyclists attempt to avoid collision vs 32.5% of car drivers. That says to me that motorcyclists are better motorists since they pay more attention to what is going on. That statistic would also indicate that motorcyclists would also avoid more accidents that wouldn't register in this study.

[lowededwookie]

.....and there's the "holier than thou" attitude.

First you criticise drivers for their lack of awareness and concentration of the vehicles around them, then you're asking drivers to let motorcyclists into a position where they don't have to concentrate so much on the vehicles around them.

So you don't want to have to concentrate so much on other-vehicle awareness, but you crack the shits when car drivers do what you're wanting to do?

Love the misquote. By not having to worry about other cars we can concentrate on other dangers such as intersections - where most of you dilholes try to take us out, obstacles like pot holes and other crap, pedestrians, etc.

I crack a shit because most drivers don't even look at what they're doing and so they are our biggest danger. If we can eliminate that danger then we can concentrate on others.

I don't have an issue with people lane-splitting, as long as they accelerate off the mark faster than I do. The problem is that most street bikers don't, and they really only hook up and pull away when I'm at 30km/hr or so, which means I'm half way to the speed limit and already starting to drop my acceleration. Or I specifically pulled into the front to overtake another vehicle, and then find my opportunity to outlaunch that vehicle is gone.

Then most of the riders you meet are either being conservative or just being arogant. I for one and most of the riders I see here in New Zealand will cane the start to get away from everyone else. It's only really the small bikes or the ones who miss the light change that seem to take a bit to get started but even still most of them here will still be moving before the cars.

[scathing]

When was the last time your car took a 60Km/h corner at 110Km/h and oversteered?

Never. I turn those corners at 120km/hr and my car will stay neutral. You know, that condition where both ends of the vehicle follow the line you intended, and is the measure of a good handling vehicle?

Well, "never" is not entirely true. The closest I've come to the situation you've described above is turning a 60km/hr corner at around 100km/hr, in the wet, and the car's line as run a little wider as my LSD locked up.

And the people who know how I drive know that I'll never take it more than eight tenths on the street, so at those speeds my tyres weren't even close to the edge of adhesion.


The other thing is that sports bikes run a far softer compound, with bigger tread blocks, than cars do. Inherently, for the contact patch, a bike tyre should provide more grip than a car tyre.

[lowededwookie]

Look, I'm not trying to make us bikers out to be better than anyone else. I'm saying that we riders do things that annoy drivers merely because we're trying our best to remain alive.

We have a large arsenal that helps us do this such as lane changing, line crawling, brakes, accelerators, protective gear and all that.

Our aim is not to piss drivers off but to eliminate them from the problems we face. Over 50% of all motorcycle accidents are the cause of drivers. We ARE more attentive than most drivers simply because we have to. If we were as blasaie as a lot of drivers out there then we would not have a very long shelf life.

All we want is respect and understanding from drivers, the very thing the original post was about.

It's arsehats in cars that think they own the road that are the ones we hate. I once heard a true story about a guy who was cut off by a BMW. At the lights he knocked on the guy's window and calmly mentioned to the driver that he had just cut him off. The driver said "So what? I don't have to respect you."

That's what we riders here are trying to state. It's drivers like this that we have to get out of the way of because they pose the most danger to us. Therefore if we try and get away from ALL drivers then we will be much safer than if they were in front of us.

Respect is a two-way street and if drivers don't respect us then we have no reason to respect them. Why can truckies be so good to us riders when they have no natural predators other than trains and yet drivers in cars can be complete arseholes who can be eaten alive by trucks?

[scathing]

Love the misquote. By not having to worry about other cars we can concentrate on other dangers such as intersections, obstacles like pot holes and other crap, pedestrians, etc.

Its not misquoted at all. I just cut out the dross to highlight what you're saying.

Are you saying that car drivers don't have to look out for intersections, pedestrians, and other crap? If a car driver doesn't have to worry about other cars they can also concentrate on your aforementioned dangers.

Why should you get preferential treatment, especially when you're asking to be treated with the same respect that car drivers accord other car drivers? We don't automatically let other cars jump in front of us (though we may do so out of courtesy) and the same goes for riders.

My point (since you clearly missed it) is that every road user has to watch out, whether they're driving or riding. You want to make it easier on yourselves because its too hard for you to ride in the middle of traffic, watching out for what every other dickhead out there is doing, without caring that cars drivers also have to sit in the middle of traffic, watching out for what every other dickhead out there is doing.

You're not making it "safer for everyone" - you're just making it easier on yourself. Which comes back to that "holier than thou" attitude - that you should somehow get preferential treatment because you choose to ride a bike, without you according the same understanding and respect for your non-bike-riding road sharers.

[dwarfthrower]

"In multiple vehicle crashes 71% of motorcyclists attempted to avoid the collision. In stark contrast to that figure, 65% of car drivers involved in the accidents studied made no attempt at a collision avoidance maneuver"

71% of motorcyclists attempt to avoid collision vs 32.5% of car drivers. That says to me that motorcyclists are better motorists since they pay more attention to what is going on. That statistic would also indicate that motorcyclists would also avoid more accidents that wouldn't register in this study.

For a start, the article already picks up on 35% of accidents occur where the driver hasn't even seen the motorcycle. It's rather difficult to take action to avoid colliding with an object you can't see. The article doesn't mention the percentage of accidents where the motorcyclist fails to see the car. I wouldn't imagine it would be very high considering the superhuman powers of observation that motorcyclists develop as soon as they strap on a helmet.

Evasive maneuvers are both easier to perform and more noticeable on a bike. Couple that with the fact that when it looks like the shit is about to hit the fan, most people's self-preservation instinct kicks in, meaning people will do what needs to be done to save themselves first, then worry about other people.

I'm willing to bet that a fair number of drivers that do see the motorcyclists would see the motorcycle's attempt at evasion and (wrongly) feel that one party taking action was enough.

Oh... and 100% less 65% is 35% rather than 32.5%.

[lowededwookie]

Never. I turn those corners at 120km/hr and my car will stay neutral. You know, that condition where both ends of the vehicle follow the line you intended, and is the measure of a good handling vehicle?

Well, "never" is not entirely true. The closest I've come to the situation you've described above is turning a 60km/hr corner at around 100km/hr, in the wet, and the car's line as run a little wider as my LSD locked up.

And the people who know how I drive know that I'll never take it more than eight tenths on the street, so at those speeds my tyres weren't even close to the edge of adhesion.


The other thing is that sports bikes run a far softer compound, with bigger tread blocks, than cars do. Inherently, for the contact patch, a bike tyre should provide more grip than a car tyre.

I'm talking about standard cars and not some modified rice mobile here. I realise that with expensive high end shocks et al then a car can perform beyond the norm but then take into account that the same applies for bikes.

A standard rear tyre for a bike actually has a reasonably large contact patch as well however there is also the need to have less tyre contacting the road than what a car would have simply because if the contact patch of a bike was equivalent to a car tyre, the bike would not turn as a bike uses the edge of the rear tyre to turn. The very reason a bike tyre is rounded on the ends whereas a car is flat. It's even less on the front tyres because to turn a bike you need as little contact as possible on the front. The less contact on the front tyre the quicker the bike turns.

[scathing]

"In multiple vehicle crashes 71% of motorcyclists attempted to avoid the collision. In stark contrast to that figure, 65% of car drivers involved in the accidents studied made no attempt at a collision avoidance maneuver"

71% of motorcyclists attempt to avoid collision vs 32.5% of car drivers. That says to me that motorcyclists are better motorists since they pay more attention to what is going on. That statistic would also indicate that motorcyclists would also avoid more accidents that wouldn't register in this study.

So what you're saying is that 71% of motorcyclists attempted to avoid collision and failed to do so, as opposed to 45% (100-65=35; where did you get 32.5 from?) of car drivers.

When you look at the numbrs in that manner, it kind of changes the bias doesn't it? Lies, damned lies.......


And, at any rate, given that its a "multiple vehicle" accident then they're in traffic. Is it not possible that the car driver realised that avoidance was useless (since they're going to hit something) and instead of trying to swerve and unsettle the car, or colliding at a weird angle, they decidd to hit the other vehicle dead-on since crumple zones and crash safety features work best when the impact is not offset.

[dwarfthrower]

Respect is a two-way street and if drivers don't respect us then we have no reason to respect them. Why can truckies be so good to us riders when they have no natural predators other than trains and yet drivers in cars can be complete arseholes who can be eaten alive by trucks?

Because most truck drivers are professionals who spend most of their day on the road. Whatever vehicle you drive, the only things that affect how good you are are the amount of time you spend practising and the dedication of your mind to the task at hand. Truck drivers depend on their skills for their livelihood. Motorcyclists depend on their skills for the continued use of their legs. The average car driver spends maybe half an hour per day on the road and considers their car an extension of their living room.

[scathing]

I'm talking about standard cars and not some modified rice mobile here.

That is with a standard vehicle. It sounds like you're clutching at straws here....

Would you like to use the fact that I did it during the day, with the sun high in the sky, as another mitigating factor for my pace? Or maybe that it hadn't rained in a while, so the surface had more grip? How about the fact that I'd had a bottle of coke and a pie beforehand, so my energy levels were up? :rolleyes:

And, as for "ricers", I'd say that the term more closely suits bike riders, with the garish decals that adorn your average bike, helmet, and leathers.

[repeat]

So what if someone moves to the front of the traffic - how, exactly, does it impact on you? How does it affect your drive/driving time?Of course it affects car drivers in many ways, because we move to the front of traffic by lane splitting at lights there is more room for cars. When you are looking for parking there are extra spots because bikes park on footpaths. The cost of fuel is cheaper as demand is lower because bikes use less fuel. Road taxes are lower because roads need to be fixed less often as bikes do less damage to roads. The environment is healthier as there is less emissions from exhaust gasses. The list goes on.

Next time you are in the city take a look at all the bikes parked on footpaths. Now imagine if all those riders drove cars instead, there would be allot more congestion on the roads and car parks.

Sure there are idiot riders just as there are idiot drivers. We have to be careful of everybody on the roads and try to be as safe as possible.

There are lots of valid points in this thread but ultimately it is the discissions of the rider/driver that determines if we have a good day or a bad day. The extra 5kms an hour, no indicating or looking over your shoulder, tailgating, not concentrating and various other things makes a difference.

On that note, it's a sunny day outside, I'm going for a ride. :)

[scathing]

It's arsehats in cars that think they own the road that are the ones we hate. I once heard a true story about a guy who was cut off by a BMW. At the lights he knocked on the guy's window and calmly mentioned to the driver that he had just cut him off. The driver said "So what? I don't have to respect you."
If someone fed that kind of shit to me, I'd knock more than just his window.

[Cubane]

So what you're saying is that 71% of motorcyclists attempted to avoid collision and failed to do so, as opposed to 45% (100-65=35; where did you get 32.5 from?) of car drivers.

When you look at the numbrs in that manner, it kind of changes the bias doesn't it? Lies, damned lies.......


And, at any rate, given that its a "multiple vehicle" accident then they're in traffic. Is it not possible that the car driver realised that avoidance was useless (since they're going to hit something) and instead of trying to swerve and unsettle the car, or colliding at a weird angle, they decidd to hit the other vehicle dead-on since crumple zones and crash safety features work best when the impact is not offset.


Nope I am saying out of the 100% of people in that study that had accidents 71% of the motorcyclists made an effort to not have an accident vs 35% of the car drivers (100-65 = 35 as pointed out by dwarfthrower above). I would also say avoidance is not just input to steering but also the application of brakes and other things likely to less the severity of an accident.

I got 32.5% by dividing 65% by 2. Don't ask me why I was doing that I have no idea.

[lowededwookie]

Its not misquoted at all. I just cut out the dross to highlight what you're saying.

To the point where you're misquoting me.

Are you saying that car drivers don't have to look out for intersections, pedestrians, and other crap? If a car driver doesn't have to worry about other cars they can also concentrate on your aforementioned dangers.

I'm not saying that at all. Everyone on the road faces the same danger it's just that those dangers have a great risk of serious injury to us than to you. If we can eliminate one risk then that only leaves the others to worry about.

Why should you get preferential treatment, especially when you're asking to be treated with the same respect that car drivers accord other car drivers? We don't automatically let other cars jump in front of us (though we may do so out of courtesy) and the same goes for riders.

We're not asking for preferential treatment just common curtesy. What does it matter to you if we ride up the middle and get the jump at the lights? If you're stuck in the middle of traffic then where can you go?

You want to make it easier on yourselves because its too hard for you to ride in the middle of traffic, watching out for what every other dickhead out there is doing, without caring that cars drivers also have to sit in the middle of traffic, watching out for what every other dickhead out there is doing.

It seems that drivers are just jealous of the fact that we don't HAVE to wait in traffic and so you get pissed off at us for the inadequacies of your vehicles.

So what you're saying is that you never do anything just because you can? You don't drive fast just because you can? Your previous posts seem to suggest that you do so what's your problem with us riding up the middle getting the jump?

You're not making it "safer for everyone" - you're just making it easier on yourself. Which comes back to that "holier than thou" attitude - that you should somehow get preferential treatment because you choose to ride a bike, without you according the same understanding and respect for your non-bike-riding road sharers.

Wrong. If that's what you want to think then there's no point in trying to argue what's already been said.

I've never once asked for preferential treatment and I'm certainly not asking for it and not respecting other road users. I'm saying I want respect and courtesy that you lot FAIL to give us. Like I said, respect is a two way street. You don't respect me as a paying ROAD USER then why should I give you any respect? You are obviously not willing to respect any of us riders by your very comments in this thread so then we have no reason to respect you.

I don't give a shit if there are more of you than us. If this is the case then theory dictates that there should be less accidents in cars because there is a higher awareness of others around you and you should all know the capabilities of your vehicles but the statistics fail to prove this. Drivers cause more accidents because they are less concerned about they're surroundings. the statistics prove this.

If drivers respected ALL road users then they would understand that there are motorcyclists on the road and therefore they should take care to ensure there are none around before pulling out of an intersection but the statistics fail to prove this.

In frustration we have to do things that get up the nose of drivers such as riding the center line.

I've had many close calls with people pulling out to pass while I'm in the passing lane right beside them passing THEM. One guy I watched as he didn't even check to see if anyone was in the lane. This forced me into the next lane which had on coming traffic in it. I was in a CAR so what chance would I have had on a bike? Actually a better one because I could simply ride in between the old fart and the oncoming cars with ease.

Don't give me this crap about us wanting preferential treatment when this is the level of intelligence of a lot of drivers. we do what we have to do to keep alive. If it means doing stuff to piss you off then fine because chances are you've done something waaay worse to piss us off causing us to take drastic measures.

[lowededwookie]

Because most truck drivers are professionals who spend most of their day on the road. Whatever vehicle you drive, the only things that affect how good you are are the amount of time you spend practising and the dedication of your mind to the task at hand. Truck drivers depend on their skills for their livelihood. Motorcyclists depend on their skills for the continued use of their legs. The average car driver spends maybe half an hour per day on the road and considers their car an extension of their living room.

I hear that but why can't they think about what they're doing. It's all too easy to get a driver's license these days and it's scary because there are too many people that should NOT be having licenses.

A truck license is actually not that easy to get and neither is a motorcycle license and yet it's easy to get a car license (at least that's the case here in New Zealand).

A car is a registered weapon and yet we're giving these weapons to 15yr olds who aren't even allowed to smoke, drink, or vote.

[Al]

I've been riding a motorbike for the last few years now. I hoon sometimes, but everytime I do I know it's my life on the line.

The reason we have a holier than thou attitude to car drivers is the majority of car drivers are idiots and dangerous to us. Sure some other motorbike riders are idiots too, but they tend to be more aware, especially of us.

We have to keep an eye on EVERY car driver. I'd say almost once a day if I'm riding some twit tries to kill me. In a car you have a bingle, on a bike you're lucky to escape death. Wouldn't YOU feel like you were the better motorist if you were avoiding that many accidents a day while failing to create them yourself?

I agreed with most of the points in that article on a core level. Do you know how shit scary it is to see a car creep out onto the road? Are they just looking or are they gonna go for it?

Also with lane splitting, yeah it's 'pushing in', but i'll be gone when the light and you'll be lucky to see me again...

All I can say is, pay attension out on the roads! If you do great, if not, maybe just think about keeping an eye out eh? People always tell motorcyclists to be more visible, and far to often tell car drivers to LOOK HARDER.

I've driven a car for most of my time on the roads, and I love riding my bike. Driving a car is purely transport compared to a bike :D

[lowededwookie]

I've driven a car for most of my time on the roads, and I love riding my bike. Driving a car is purely transport compared to a bike :D

Same for me.

Riding is a way of life, driving is merely a way of getting around.

I would have only ever had a motorcycle if it wasn't for swapping companies and loosing access to company cars. I needed something to carry computers around hence the reason for going to a wagon.

Cars should be sensible and bikes should be for caning.

[Lord_Phat]

i love it how this digressed into a bikes v cars arguement :fag:

i think the inherent problem with bad road users is they have no concept of what is going on around them and how they impact other road users...

the reason why riders get a higher level of hatred of these assclowns, is that it's pretty likely that they might get injured in some way by them...

i think it's pretty simple to agree that bad road users are bad road users, the article is a bit bike centric, but highlights a few issues that non-riders may not be aware of...

i cannot express how nervous "the creep" makes me... particularly out on country roads, don't really fancy becoming someones hood ornament at that kinda speed :)

[Asmodeus]

Asmodeus. I didn't write that article. I hope you weren't getting angry at me ;)

I was just passing the info on.

nope, not at all bud.. just venting my spleen at self righteous nincompoops who obviously don't understand anything outside their own little world.. mainly, the original writer of the article who left his name at the bottom.

[Asmodeus]

I would not put too much faith in that articles conclusions nor the study. The results are gathered in Europe which has a much larger amount of scooter riders and in places like Italy they basically ride where ever there is road (or footpath) giving nobody any room etc. This would cause a HUGE distortion to the statistics so its relevance to our roads is negligable.

Also, one of the biggest problems is with riding (yes, i have ridden before, i don't anymore due to my eyes) is what you think is visible and what actually is. all cars have natural blind spots due to orientation of mirrors and no one is going to constantly check over their shoulder unless changing lanes since the action you're worried about is in front of you, not to the side.

[Asmodeus]

Shelled bugs get stopped by helmets and protective gear. Big deal, the only people who care about those are squids, and they are darwin candidates anyway. Nobody should be accelerating enough to pop a wheelie accidentally. Weather, uneven roads, obstacles are things ALL road users should be paying attention to and constantly have their eyes out for. Are you saying you do not pay any condition to the road conditions and drive exactly the same all the time, day or not, rain hail or shine?

Not at all, BUT, these road conditions affect you (the bike rider) a whole lot more than me in my car. I won't run teh rick of whiping out or having to hang on and go 'holy shit' over some unexpected gravel or slick spot or even teh stray box that might blow into the road. also, those new plastic lane stripes that sink into the asphalt are not an issue to me but going over one on a bike at any speed will make you start beleiving in jesus being the savior again. not sure if you guys have those over by yous, but they're an issue here at times.


We think just as lowly of our 2-wheeled bretheren who do this. Remember to practice what you preach, those people do the same to me so you're not alone, but please, lets not be paranoid, they're not solely out to get just you.


I see it almost never here, then again, we're in different countries with radically (it appears) different driving patterns.

I have a few distracted drivers around me, some who like swerving over the road, some who are busier doing their makeup or talking on the phone instead of driving. I try to position myself in the safest possible place so I can avoid such things taking me off the road. Sometimes that means putting a few cars between them and myself. It can be safer for us to get to the front of the line as it means we can take off ahead of the traffic and have less threats around us. A lot of my 2-wheeled brethren are just being impatient smartarses, but some of us are just trying to look after our own skin.

the answer is to learn to drive your vehicle better. Like before, i've been thinking on this a bit and i'd almost have to see you guys in action since it just isn't a problem over here. 100% of the ones wanting to get up front is somply for that, they're inpatient dumbasses.

No, it should not be PURELY on the road. As a fellow road user, you should be aware of this. Any and all road users SHOULD be paying attention to the road, the signs, other vehicles around them, AND the drivers of these vehicles to figure out the biggest threat and prepare as best they can for any required manouvers to avoid anything happening. That person is obviously distracted, so I shall keep more distance and prepare for them to merge on top of me without looking due to their distractions. OMFG! I am being proactive in my safety, something ALL road users (yourself included) should do!!!

Getting away froma dangerous situation is common sense, saying you're going to be exchanging words with anyone on a phone (the original letter writer, not you personally) just smacks of dumbass. He's not the road police nor is he master of the airwaves. yes, cell phone users in cars annoy most of us too and personally i feel they should be banned like a few states here already have.

The "big bulky" helmet only cuts out the widest of my periphery vision. Not very much at all. I counter this by looking around regularly, using my mirrors, and checking my blindspot by turning my head [gasp] just as one should when using the road. Oh, and I do not have all the sound dampening you have or a stereo bleeting out a doof doof soundtrack louder than a 747's engine. Even without the stereo, I still can hear the outside world better than you.

Odd, barely anyone here has that situation with tier radio, what kind of a place do you live in?

No, it does not "have the right of way". It has more inertia, but not the right of way. That is like saying a fat bastard has the right to go straight to the front of the queue in the supermarket. Its relation to the laws of physics does not exist.

By your arguement, you should step out in front of a speeding truck and it should stop on a dime to let you pass. Right of way is not just a legel thing, its common sense. Me personally, i'd let the truck pass before i tried crossign its intended path if there was any chance of us intersecting, especally in a rather gristly way.

The only "special prevelege" that has been requested is a little room at the lights so we can move ahead. The rest is basic road safety which everyone SHOULD follow, but many do not.

Including bike riders. A little room at lights is fine, most here do that by takign off a little slow then gettign up to balanceable speed quickly, but worming your way up front it pointless, rude and dangerous for everyone. Not to mention that many bike riders who do it seem to think its their right, privelege, or other such rubbish. We should not have to deal with a riders lack of driving skill or timidness on the road. Thats here, wher eyou are may be different so we may be comparing apples to oranges.[/QUOTE]

[Asmodeus]

Cars can do one thing bikes can't, get hit from the side and not throw the driver out of the car. That to me is why cars are safer, it's not a matter of whose fault it is, it's what happens directly after the accident.

you also have to make a very concerted effort to put a car on its side and thus eject the driver all over the road. damn that 4 wheel stability thing. A car can also take a bump from any direction and be somewhat damaged, all while protecting the passenger

[Asmodeus]

you are an asshat Amsodeus. It is exactly this " we are bigger than you, so what we say goes" attitude that kills people on the road.

All of the things you mentioned happen to car drivers as well as bike rider, except with a car - a "fender bender" costs you a couple of hundred. With us, a 'fender bender" costs us hospital time or our lives.

Any wonder we are more concerned about it than you?

So what if someone moves to the front of the traffic - how, exactly, does it impact on you? How does it affect your drive/driving time?

It doesnt. It is just you being an asshat, saying "no one deserves to be in front of me". Again - these sort of ideas are what gets people killed.

hi fucktard, now lets get a done of reality. You'll realize what it is once you hit puberty, start thinking about the opposite gender and get outside on occasion.

Lets talk on reality. something is going wrong on teh road, who's going to win in a pushing match, a truck or a motorcycle.. yeah thats right, the truck is going to win in a rather blood splashed way, so its in your best interest to get out of the way using your manouverability and better acceleration. Thats right, you also do not have teh right of way simply becuase you can beat me off the line. now, keep in mind that we're talking when a dangerous or questionable situation happens on the roadway. i accept the same reality when it comes to me vs a semi, or me as a pedestrian vs any motorized vehicle. Its the generally reckless balls of steel attitude of a lot of bike riders that gets them killed as well.

how does going up to the front affect me? read some of my previous posts, besides now we have a wobbly biker rider (possibly) bumping into cars, mirrors, or casuing other damage, also putting themselves in a dangerous situation in a place they have no fucking reason or (at least in this country) right to be in and many times get caught between cars when the light changes and cars want to take off. Also, remind me to just step in front of you and your line when you're waiting to buy some food or groceries. hey, im not affecting you, am i?

We also realize that no one is forcing you to ride a much more dangerous and unprotected and unstable vehicle and frankly, not a lot of people want to have to deal with those who cant pilot their vehicle effectively in common traffic.

if you're so fearful of the other drivers, either get a car, learn to drive better or pleas get the hell off the road, and thats for anyone in any sort of vehicle.

me asshat? well isn't that the fucktard calling the asshat cunt.

grow a pair, good luck on that whole puberty thing.

[Asmodeus]

This amuses me. Stability impaired? You know diddly squat about bikes mate.

A bike is only unstable at SLOW speeds. When we're moving and the faster we go then we become more stable.

I've ridden 220Km/h (just to see what it was like) and I can tell you that a bike at that speed is so rock solid that there is no way it will turn.

Learn a thing or two about bike physics before you tell us that we're something that we're not.

actually i do, and if you can't turn your bike at speed, either get a better bike or please please learn how to pilot your vehicle.

[Asmodeus]

I thought we were talking about bikes, not SUVs? :confused:

interesting, i can get hit by a car in an suv and live

[SmaSheD_CoW]

For me, it doesn't matter whether I'm driving a bike, car, or a camper-van - I drive as though everybody else on the road is an idiot, and assume that they're probably out to kill me. That attitude has kept me accident-free this long...hopefully it lasts.

[otaku]

hi fucktard, now lets get a done of reality. You'll realize what it is once you hit puberty, start thinking about the opposite gender and get outside on occasion.

Lets talk on reality. something is going wrong on teh road, who's going to win in a pushing match, a truck or a motorcycle.. yeah thats right, the truck is going to win in a rather blood splashed way, so its in your best interest to get out of the way using your manouverability and better acceleration. Thats right, you also do not have teh right of way simply becuase you can beat me off the line. now, keep in mind that we're talking when a dangerous or questionable situation happens on the roadway. i accept the same reality when it comes to me vs a semi, or me as a pedestrian vs any motorized vehicle. Its the generally reckless balls of steel attitude of a lot of bike riders that gets them killed as well.

how does going up to the front affect me? read some of my previous posts, besides now we have a wobbly biker rider (possibly) bumping into cars, mirrors, or casuing other damage, also putting themselves in a dangerous situation in a place they have no fucking reason or (at least in this country) right to be in and many times get caught between cars when the light changes and cars want to take off. Also, remind me to just step in front of you and your line when you're waiting to buy some food or groceries. hey, im not affecting you, am i?

We also realize that no one is forcing you to ride a much more dangerous and unprotected and unstable vehicle and frankly, not a lot of people want to have to deal with those who cant pilot their vehicle effectively in common traffic.

if you're so fearful of the other drivers, either get a car, learn to drive better or pleas get the hell off the road, and thats for anyone in any sort of vehicle.

me asshat? well isn't that the fucktard calling the asshat cunt.

grow a pair, good luck on that whole puberty thing.


I never denied that a bike rider will come off worse. If you actually read my comments, you will see i said that, arseclown. What i was pointing out was morons on the road who believe that being in a bigger car gives them right of way. It doesnt. Your stopping ability in a car = that of a bike. It is simply the &q