I Need Some Career Advice

[jeffxor]

My current situation is as follows.

My first job after my degree was working in the city as software engineer in a small private company. I really enjoyed coding and the challenges it brought with it. In the 20 or so months I was working there I learnt a lot about the industry and improved my skills greatly. The problem was the management and a number of people there weren't the best and their work practices sucked (ie. none existent), They didn't really treat there staff good and often criticized and never praised staff. Basically they took a lot and never gave back, ie working back to meet a deadline they never gave you time in lieu when you asked. An a testament to this was the high staff turn over in a period of 4 months they lost 3 programmer, one project manager, and a project officer. Add to the fact with traveling it was about 13 hour day from when I left home too when I got home and I wasn't.

So I left there and joined local council as an Application Support Officer (glorified help desk position) expecting more time for my self. That I have I get RDO's, plenty of leave, people are great to work with the pay is fair bit less than the city. I have been here just over 4 months and I have yet to be given any real responsibility or task to do. Anything I get is not challenging me and I am not really learning anything useful. However, it is really relaxed I have no pressure and is the first job in IT that I actually don't mind going to work everyday. I also fell a loyalty to my boss who hired me for the position, the only thing that is missing in this job is the challenges, I am usually bored at work with nothing to do which is very frustrating as I have plenty of skills that could be utilized. I have mentioned this to my boss a couple of times but nothing much has change since I started.


Yesterday I went for an interview for job in my local area about 10 minutes travel for similar help desk role for an international company. I asked for a ridiculous amount of money as I knew I was happy with where I was, Too my surprise they said yes but I would have to prove myself and do more than what was outlined in the add and told me the job was mine on the spot (The first time that has ever happened). They then explained too we what would be expected of me if I was to accept, essentially they want me to manage and organise their help desk for their Australian clients as well as take on a few other minor things such as database reporting and word macro writing. They also mentioned the possibility of further full payed training and the possibility of International travel. It sounds like a good job that will provide a challenge, a lot more responsibility than what I currently have.


My question is what should I do should I give up the cushy government job, with great leave entitlements, easy place too work with nice people or take on the much more challenge position that will have more returns for me personally?
:rolleyes:

[Benwah]

Pretend to break your leg, take 3 weeks off the gov job and 'try out' the new role, see if you can cut it/see if you enjoy it.

If you don't, go back (with crutches for a few weeks) if you do, quit the gov job and enjoy your new position.

[btwong]

I would go to your government job's Boss and tell him what the story is. He maybe able to work something out for you in your current job, in regards to better pay, more challenges and responsibilities.

If nothing can be sorted, i would go for the new job. A change is as good as a holiday, and plus i dare say at the new job, you will learn alot more and earn more skills, and be utilised to your maximum potential, plus i think the private sector provides more chance for growth, but without the stability, where as the gov' job is the opposite.

Anyway, good luck and be sure to tell us all the outcome.

[jeffxor]

The bad thing is I only just got over a broken leg when I took on the government job. I have only just recovered 6 months later.

2 broken legs in one year will look a bit dodgy. I was thining of doing something similar but I don't have any leave until I do my first 12 months.

[BtrFly]

good luck, ultimately if you arent challenged in your roles, then you are going to be bored, and not be interested in staying on. take what you think will ultimately advance your career, and these people with the new role seem good - seem like they know what they want. research them, and make sure that they can ultimately provide these things that they have provided also.

[dwarfthrower]

My question is what should I do should I give up the cushy government job, with great leave entitlements, easy place too work with nice people or take on the much more challenge position that will have more returns for me personally?

To me, it's a no-brainer... my advice would be to grab the challenge by both nuts and give it a fair dinkim go. Of course that all depends on you situation. If you're married with kids and a mortgage to support then can you afford to go back on the job market in 6 months time if it doesn't work out?

[jeffxor]

Thats thing I am in the process of buying a house so that is pretty scary. I know the job with the council is secure and I can stay with them for a long time but it is really tight with my current salary. The amount they are offering will allow me to live bit more freely, however the insecurity is a problem.

[dwarfthrower]

The amount they are offering will allow me to live bit more freely, however the insecurity is a problem.

The new job is really only as insecure as you make it. If you're prepared to put the effort in, give up a bit of your own time to come up to speed and haven't completely bullshitted your way into a position you know you can't handle you should be fine.

The other thing to consider also is the long term stability of the company. The local council is always going to be there. Will the company offering you a job still be standing in 6 months time?

[void*]

Nothing in life is certain, other than the fact you are dieing.

You only live once, and losing your job is not a big problem if you are young and energentic. Look at people like Gerry Harvey. Thrice a bankrupt. Now arguably the richest man in Australia. Do you think he sat around thinking that the safe thing to do was the best thing to do ?

Take the new job, and twist all the juicy goodness out of it. You'll regret it if you don't.

[annie]

i say to take the challenging job, it could open up a lot more opportunities to you in the future, and if you don't take it, you'll always wonder what might have happened, and eventually you might come to resent the council job because it kept you back from the other one.

Good luck with whatever decision you make :)

[Pirate]

Go the job with the money.

My job has gone from a challenging one with shit pay, to a job thats utterly fucking boring and shit pay.

Take the money. Being broke sucks dogs balls.

[Lina]

I would most definitely take the challenging job. Wouldn't your home loan have insurance against you losing your job? This is somewhat of a comfort I would imagine. That and you don't sound like you would be an unemployable guy.

For the record I have always taken the plunge in the job market and I now, after several jumps, gotten to a high paid, challenging position that I love. Bugger wishing that you had of done it when you get to 60 and you're STILL at your cushy (read: boring) council job.

[Chrissy]

One thing you could do to cover yourself is see if your morgage provider will allow payment holidays in case the unthinkable happens and you hate the new job and want to leave or if the new company isn't as secure as it should be. That way you are taking a 'secure' risk.

I fully believe in taking the plunge while you are young(er than me!) with few responsibilities. If you can't be impetuous now, you'll always regret what might have been.

The new job sounds like it could open the door for you career wise, while your old job, while secure is obviously boring the hell out of you.

Get a peice of paper and write a pro/con list for each job, then write a wish list and compare it to both jobs. That should help you see which job will give you what you are looking for.

Good luck with what you decide.

[MisterBishi]

Just fucking go man.

[Bifrost]

I currently work for the sort of company you started with (ie. no time in lieu for long hours, no rewards for good work)...BUT unchallenging jobs are the worst. You start to lose your ability to think on your feet and you turn into a mushroom like most of government middle-management.

Besides, not all large companies are vampires - some have well-structured time-in-lieu or on-call benefits and the like.

Oh and if your "ridiculous amount of money" was actually ridiculous, they wouldn't have offered it to you.

[locust]

Hmmm. Does your current job bore you because it's a slack government job, or because you're doing support rather than coding?

If the latter, consider whether you'll really be happier in a more challenging support role.

The money issue I really don't know, guess it's a matter of how much you want/need it :)

[MisterBishi]

Yeah, I'm not as money-motivated as some people (else I'd do IT recruitment for £50k), and I reckon if you're bored now then you're only going to get more bored.

If you think about the fact that you probably have 40 years of working left to do, you realise you dont want to spend that being bored, no matter how comfortable it is.

[Lurgen]

I have never been happier (workwise) than with my current job. It's difficult, demanding, challenging and I love it. The two jobs before this were both easy, neither took up much of my time and both paid well but I wasn't happy. Yes, this one pays quite a bit more than the last jobs but I love it regardless of the money.

Work for money if you have to, but work for happiness if you can.

[zhasper]

Personally, I'd prefer a job I enjoyed to one that was boring but paid me well.

However, I don't think you've considered all your options....

Two other possibilities:

Have you considered talking to your boss and asking for more responsibility/more challenge?

Secondly: Have you considered looking for challenge outside the workplace?

Think of your stable cushy job as a "foundation" on which to build; you could perhaps do tafe/uni/adult education/some kind of course at night - learning something new can be challenging/rewarding, as well as being good long-term planning - it could lead to something you'd rather be doing

You could use your copious time off to volunteer in some capacity; perhaps there's some local organisation that needs your skills? I'm not talking picking weeds or delivering meals to the needy - perhaps there's a local community radio station that needs help looking after their computers?

Perhaps you'd prefer to tackle a more personal challenge; spend more time getting to know your significant other (if you have one) - or spend more time working on developing friendships with people (if you're looking for one), or getting to know new people..

Given that you have coding experience - maybe there's an open-source project you'd like to work on? Maybe there's something you'd like to work on as your own private closed-source project? Many a backyard spare-time gosh-wouldn't-that-be-fun has grown into something bigger...

Bottom line is: having a stable, cushy, decently paid job isn't such a terrible thing. It can leave you feeling unsatisfied - but there are plenty of ways you can get your satisfaction without needing to give up the job

[Yogi]

You answered the question yourself. Your bored and want a challenge.

Me Id take the cushy job because Im lazy (read Unemployed). But if coding or whatever is your passion then you'll probably love it.

[Directed]

If your new job challenges you and teaches you new things, why not take it on? Supervising somewhere sets you up to learn more, and be a better person. In the long run you'll be happier, though it will be more work now.

[jeffxor]

Ok, I just received the offical offer of the position via email but unfortunately they are unable to pay the full amount that i requested. The amount they offered is similar to what I am currently on. But they say my salary will increase after 3 months, however my current council position will see me get a similar pay rise.

So my decision is made, while the new position sounds great I don't think it is worth the risk when there is no substantial payoff (ie cash) for myself. I am comfortable here and have fit in with the people i work with and things seem to be turning the corner. I release my current job my not be able to offer all the benefits of the new position it still not worth jumping ship yet.

By the way I am not a money grabbing whore, I just don't feel it is worth the risk!

Does anyone else have a different opion before I turn down the offer?

[dwarfthrower]

Does anyone else have a different opion before I turn down the offer?

Nah... sounds like they were bullshitting you all along. Stay where you are. So many times I've seen people hooked by the old "We'll start you on what you're getting now and increase it in X months time" only to remain stuck on what they were earning before until they leave. If they're going to fuck you around at this stage, they'll keep doing it.

[Lurgen]

Nope. For them to go through the interview process under false pretences like that... There's two things that might be happening here. They might be pressuring you, trying to minimise the money they have to pay you (hoping you'll accept, and may come back with a better offer after you say no), or they might have just been fucking with you the whole time. Both situations happen - when you have to hire somebody the goal is to get the best person you can for the least amount of money.

If you want to really pursue them, consider accepting if they ditch this "in 3 months" rubbish and just ante up right away. 3 months is nothing in the bigger scheme of things, and if they plan on having the money available to pay you more in a quarter of a year they can easily pay up right now.

I would also like to point out that you should NEVER leave a job for the same money you're on. Doesn't matter how bad the current job is, or how good the new job might be, you just don't do it. Once you're employed salaries rarely move upwards. Missing out on that opportunity to step up in between positions means you can lose years of progress. Hold out for a better offer, a better job, or stick with what you've got.

Also remember it's not a small market. IT is on the rebound, and while it'll never be as good as it once was there are still plenty of jobs for the skilled.

[jeffxor]

Oh well all said and done with, now I just have to live with my decision which was pretty easy in the end. Just waiting to here back to see if they up the anty.

Thanks for the advice I will be coming back for more. + rep for all

[Directed]

Now my advice changes. jeffxor, if they play with your money now, they will play later. I say stick with where you are now. You know they appreciate you at least. Good luck in any career moves you do or don't make!

[jeffxor]

Received this email this evening, sort of makes things a little more
interesting. I don't know what to do now and it kind a pisses me off as the
decesion was hard enough to make the first time and I was happy with my
decision. Now I have to go through th whole process again, damn it is a really
good job. Do you think they will resent me for having to pay so much?

Damn Damn Damn, plus I just started making plans for the future and I have
training lined up for next month with the council . Ah shitI don't know what to do.



Thank you for your response.

I have considered this again and, should you still be interested, am
prepared to propose the starting salary package as indicated (i.e. wages +
super).

Trial period for both parties of 3months.


> Sorry the position sounds interesting and challenging and I believe I
>would be able to perform well in this postion. However, as dicussed on >Monday I am in the process of buying a house and am not currently in the >financial postion to be able to take the position offered.
>
> Thanks for your time on Monday.

[Lurgen]

The best staff in a company are always resented for how much they are paid. It's one of those little facts of life that you get over eventually. Sounds almost as though they were calling your bluff about money, and realised that you weren't bluffing after all. Are they offering the same amount you demanded earlier on in the process, or just something in between (the email isn't really clear on it).

I would also make sure I had a written letter of offer in front of me with detailed explanations of how the money adds up. Sometimes they try to cut your pay down by switching from $x + super to $x including super which is the equivalent of a 10% pay cut. Got caught out on this particular trick once before and didn't have the experience to recognise it in time to knock them back.

The three month thing is stock-standard for IT jobs these days. Personally I look at it as an escape-hatch - if I don't like the place I start looking no later than 4 weeks after I start there. Later than that and you miss your opportunity to leave on fuck-all notice, and also have a lengthy gap in your resume that you'll have to make something up to cover eventually. Gaps of a month or two are easily overlooked or concealed when a new job goes sour.

In the end, you need to consider the job satisfaction, financial rewards, increased pressure to perform, longer working hours, etc before making a final decision.

[Holster]

I would also like to point out that you should NEVER leave a job for the same money you're on. Doesn't matter how bad the current job is, or how good the new job might be, you just don't do it. Once you're employed salaries rarely move upwards. Missing out on that opportunity to step up in between positions means you can lose years of progress. Hold out for a better offer, a better job, or stick with what you've got.


I have always taken the same or a similar rate when I have moved companies, but I have alway had my rate increased while working, either through promotion or contract renewal.

[jeffxor]

Yeah basically I asked for the amount I was on when I was working as a software engineer in the city. I though it was high for the job and the area but it would make things easier at the moment. They offered 7k lower in the first offer now they are offering the orginal amount.

So on oneside I have a nice comfortable job, working with people I like, plenty of leave (love my RDOs), a really stable work, ok pay nothing speacial, less than 1hr travel to work. Training on the way. Problems are I am not challenged, the possibility of not much of payrise as it is council.

On the otherside I have an instant payrise, work locally (10 mins work), work for Internatiional company, possible training, a real challenge. Downside is no RDO's, a company I don't know, people I don't know, the company has been around 15 years but a position I think I would do well in but unsure, extra pressure and stress.

But the worst thing is I would have to put in my resignation here which I know will be disappointing to a few people I work with and get along with well. Also how will this look on my CV I would of had 3 jobs in just over 2 years, employers will start to think I am un stable and no likely to stay around? (ie what would recruiters think of it?)

It just pisses me off as I hate making big decissions!

[dwarfthrower]

Yeah basically I asked for the amount I was on when I was working as a software engineer in the city. I though it was high for the job and the area but it would make things easier at the moment. They offered 7k lower in the first offer now they are offering the orginal amount.

OK, so it seems they were just trying one on, rather than actively setting out to screw you over. They probably have an even higher opinion of you after calling their bluff.

So on oneside I have a nice comfortable job, working with people I like, plenty of leave (love my RDOs), a really stable work, ok pay nothing speacial, less than 1hr travel to work. Training on the way. Problems are I am not challenged, the possibility of not much of payrise as it is council.

On the otherside I have an instant payrise, work locally (10 mins work), work for Internatiional company, possible training, a real challenge. Downside is no RDO's, a company I don't know, people I don't know, the company has been around 15 years but a position I think I would do well in but unsure, extra pressure and stress.

OK, comfort is a pretty subjective thing... some people take longer to get 'comfortable' in a position than others. It also depends on what level of 'comfort' you mean... the point at which you feel comfortable asking someone to show you how to use the photocopier, or the point at which you feel comfortable flicking rubber bands at them? At any rate, a large, professional organisation should do pretty much everything within their power to get you 'comfortable' in most senses of the word very quickly with everything from induction sessions to a social club. And I'm sure there will be enough people working there to find at least one person you like working with.

Your RDOs and travel times cancel each other out. With the new job you've got ten minutes travel, as opposed to 60, meaning you save 100 minutes there and back each day. 100 minutes a day for five days a week gives you a spare 500 minutes per week.... more than one full working day per week.

Both jobs have "possible" training. From personal experience you need to be pretty proactive about getting training regardless of the company. The advantage with a large company is that they will often get group discounts on training when they send more than one person to the same course, meaning that they get more training per dollar than smaller organisations... and giving you the bonus of having someone to study/compare notes with.

Extra pressure and stress is what the extra money tends to buy. If you can handle the job, then the pressure and stress shouldn't be too much of an issue.

But the worst thing is I would have to put in my resignation here which I know will be disappointing to a few people I work with and get along with well.

It's never easy. But handled in a professional manner shouldn't be a burning of bridges. Business is business, you certainly don't owe your current co-workers your continued presence.

Also how will this look on my CV I would of had 3 jobs in just over 2 years, employers will start to think I am un stable and no likely to stay around? (ie what would recruiters think of it?)

3 jobs in two years is not too bad in the IT industry. I had 3 in one year at one point in my career. If your resume demonstrates that each move was a step up in your career, then there shouldn't be too much of an issue with it. 10 jobs in two years and I'd start to worry.

It just pisses me off as I hate making big decissions!

Fortune favours the brave mate. Better to take the plunge than to sit around wondering.

[jeffxor]

Just thought I would finish the thread off with saying that I finally took the job offer and have handed in my resgination. Sad to be leaving all the great people I have meet, but I hope my new position will be just as rewarding. If not I can always find another shitty job.

I just hope I have made the right decision.

[ajcrowley]

Just thought I would finish the thread off with saying that I finally took the job offer and have handed in my resgination. Sad to be leaving all the great people I have meet, but I hope my new position will be just as rewarding. If not I can always find another shitty job.

I just hope I have made the right decision.


good choice

[Directed]

Good luck in your new job Jeffxor! Keep us posted on how it goes.

[oldtoby]

I know this is an old thread...but would like to add...Government jobs arent always as "safe as houses". All it takes is a new CEO who decides to outsource the IT department, and you are looking for a new job, or working customer service in a redeployment role (albiet at your previous wage rate). And yes, Ive seen it happen first hand. Well done, and hope its going well.

[Botoxygen]

How is the new job going? It's been a few months since your last post on the topic.

[jeffxor]

Well the news is good and bad.

I took the job and have been working here for the last 2 months. Unfortunately it is not quite what I was expecting and is quite slow and i don't really like it much. Basically again no challenge and help desk role is rather frustrating as I don't have any control over fixing things here like I did at the council.

The good news is I resigned from this position last week and am serving out my 2 weeks notice. I scored another job working in the state governemnt this time in a development role working with new technologies lke Enterprise Java Beans, postgres and few other things I really liked at Uni, so I am super happy at the moment. Going to be a real challenge with a lot of responsibility which sounds awesome.

So I looking forward to a step learning curve were I will have to start using my brain again, I just hope it is up to challenge.

The only draw back is the travel involved in the new job it is based in the City which is about 1.5 hour tavel compared to my current 15 mins. However, the job sounds awesome and is exactly what I was looking for so it should all go well.


Overall in my experince I wouldn't call it a mistake as I the job gave me enough time to complete my Linux Certificationm as well as give me a lot of personal time that I didn't have before.

[Javaira]

You only really regret the things you didn't do. Go on jump.