Interesting..

[and3w]

..book review...goes into how the language of war has been changed to make torture seem like 'behaviour modification'.

"Five days after 9/11, Vice-President Cheney emerged from the fortified burrow in which he'd been awaiting Armageddon and - glowering as blackly as the oil he no doubt dreams of - explained how the government intended to respond to the terrorists. President Bush was already babbling about a crusade and remembering the 'dead or alive' posters that used to be displayed in the Wild West. But Cheney did not invoke the chivalric idealism of Arthurian knights and sheriffs with tin badges. The fictions that helped him to deal with these new political facts were demon-haunted and apocalyptic. He had cast himself as Darth Vader: he therefore explained to an NBC interviewer that the administration from now on would 'work through, sort of, the dark side'.

That meant, as it turned out, the suspension of habeas corpus and of the Geneva conventions that regulate the treatment of prisoners of war. Alberto Gonzalez, Bush's legal counsel (since promoted to attorney general), supplied him with a 'new paradigm' for conducting a campaign against rogue killers from failed states who targeted civilians: since terrorists ignored the laws, why should America and its raggle-taggle band of allies bother about humane niceties?"

More (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,1418337,00.html)

Anyone else seen any good examples of this 'double-speak'?

[gunsella]

Anyone else seen any good examples of this 'double-speak'?

every time nodbugger posts on zgeek.

[Nodbugger]

What a completely unbiased article!

That whole thing is Bullshit, for one The President cannot suspend habeas corpus, he must get it approved by congress.

The things we do to prisoners are things people want here. We have been basically giving them lap dances! The people we have been fighting treat their women horribly so we give them exactly what they don't want and then they talk.

[and3w]

I never said it was unbiased, I said it was interesting. The way the language of war has changed over the years I happen to find very interesting.
What is happening in Guantanamo is highly illegal from any viewpoint but yours, habeas corpus certainly doesn't apply there!
But, as I said, that isn't the point here, it is the lexographical changes to the english language that is, and not just by Americans...look at the different terms for the killing of your own side that have been dreamt up and then look at the reasons for those changes. This I find interesting.

[Nodbugger]

I never said it was unbiased, I said it was interesting. The way the language of war has changed over the years I happen to find very interesting.
What is happening in Guantanamo is highly illegal from any viewpoint but yours, habeas corpus certainly doesn't apply there!
But, as I said, that isn't the point here, it is the lexographical changes to the english language that is, and not just by Americans...look at the different terms for the killing of your own side that have been dreamt up and then look at the reasons for those changes. This I find interesting.

Habeas Corpus only applies to American citizens.

[dwarfthrower]

Habeas Corpus only applies to American citizens.
Bullshit... Why is it written in Latin then, instead of 'merkin? Could it be that it's a foundation principle in common law dating back to the Magna Carta?

[Nodbugger]

Bullshit... Why is it written in Latin then, instead of 'merkin? Could it be that it's a foundation principle in common law dating back to the Magna Carta?

Do you have any American coins at home? Read them, please. Things are written in Latin because they sound good. Habeas Corpus in the US only applies to American citizens.

[dwarfthrower]

Things are written in Latin because they sound good.
The Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 enshrined the writ of Habeas Corpus into English law, which the framers of the US constitution then inserted into their own little document.

Habeas Corpus in the US only applies to American citizens.

Quite patently untrue. Are you suggesting that non-citizens are not afforded the same protections under the constitution as citizens?

Perhaps what you meant to say is that Habeas Corpus in the US only applies in areas under US jurisdiction?

[locust]

I believe the current rulings that allow the situation in Cuba to exist rely on the fact that it's not actually US soil, rather than the nationality of the prisoners.

[ersatz]

The Habeas Corpus Act of 1679 enshrined the writ of Habeas Corpus into English law, which the framers of the US constitution then inserted into their own little document.

you've got to admit though, it does sound pretty cool.

[and3w]

Habeas Corpus only applies to American citizens.

In that case, why do crimes committed on American bases & embassies get classed as having occured on Amerikan soil & investigated by Amerikan MP's? And why is it only Amerikan law &that is valid on American bases and embasies?
OH, except for Guantanomo??? WTF is going on there? :confused:

[Hairyman]

And3w, Nodbugger doesn't do logic.

[banga]

damn youve both lost me ?? what does habius corpus do for you?? and andwer you spelled amercan with a k lol you ruski you :)

[and3w]

Amerika is how it's spelt on Jello Biafra's spoken word albums..isn't that right? DOH! :(

Habeus Corpus:

In common law jurisdictions, habeas corpus, or more precisely habeas corpus ad subjiciendum, is a prerogative writ which requires the addressee to produce in court a person in its custody and justify his or her imprisonment. Known as the "Great Writ", the writ of habeas corpus could be used not only in criminal cases, but in cases of imprisonment for private debt. In many jurisdictions today the writ can also be issued against private individuals.

and

Habeas corpus in the United States: This procedure, part of English common law, was considered important enough to be specifically mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, which says, "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." (Article One, section nine).

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeus_corpus)

[Nodbugger]

In that case, why do crimes committed on American bases & embassies get classed as having occured on Amerikan soil & investigated by Amerikan MP's? And why is it only Amerikan law &that is valid on American bases and embasies?
OH, except for Guantanomo??? WTF is going on there? :confused:

Because those plots have land have been given to America and are considered American soil.

We took Guantanamo bay.

[and3w]

No, you kept it when you left Cuba, in the same way you kept bases in Germany and Japan after WW2

[Bostonmess]

Fucking squatters.

[and3w]

Fucking squatters.

Fucking squatters that nobody wants there for their arrogant behaviour as well!

Edit: Bos, just noticed your +rep..ooops :o

[Nodbugger]

No, you kept it when you left Cuba, in the same way you kept bases in Germany and Japan after WW2

The base was established in 1898, when the U.S. obtained control of Cuba from Spain at the end of the Spanish-American War, following the 1898 invasion of Guantánamo Bay. The U.S. government obtained a perpetual lease that can only be broken if both parties mutually consent to terminate the lease that began on February 23, 1903 from the newly independent Cuban state.

and

The agreement holds further that the U.S. will pay 2,000 gold coins (more than $4,000 in today's money) each year in rent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay

[s3raph]

Good of you to actually post a source here this time, so I'll overlook the fact that any bum can write a wikipedia article. $4000, thats an absolute steal for such a large piece of land.

[and3w]

Pffftt, it just means they invaded Cuba and refused to turn it over to those corrupt bastards who ran it until they got a large bit of real estate on a nice tropical island that America continued to rule, in practice, until Che came along. The whole fucking country was run for the benefit of American corporations and the mafia until then!
It's a good job that at least Cuba obeys the law of contract!
Still, I really don't see any difference between saying to cuba "OK, we will go but only if you rent us a bit of your island for ever" and saying to Germany "OK, we will go so long as you let us have air bases all over your country".
$4,000 dollars?

[Bostonmess]

He's only ever cashed one rent cheque. :D

[Nodbugger]

$4000 back then is a lot now.