Iraq's sharpshooting rebel legend

[ajcrowley]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12321175-401,00.html


Iraq's sharpshooting rebel legend
By Hala Jaber in Baghdad
February 21, 2005
From:
WITH elbows bandaged and knees padded for comfort, Abu Othman lay face down on a Ramadi rooftop and cradled his Russian-made sniper rifle as he waited for the tall American soldier to appear.

The soldier's habit of urinating into the street from the top of his Bradley armoured vehicle had angered Sunni Muslim inhabitants of the tree-lined suburb he patrolled. It was not the urinating as such that offended them; it was the way he exposed himself regardless of whether any women were around.
Ramadi's insurgents twice tried to take out the Bradley, first with a rocket-propelled grenade and then with a Russian C5K missile. They missed both times - and that was when they sent for Abu Othman.

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It was a long, hot wait that summer's day on the rooftop and Abu Othman, 30, was glad of his headphones. He played his favourite verses from the Koran and their soothing flow cleared his mind, infusing him with a determination to see through the assignment, come what may. He prayed for God to deliver his target.

"Then the call came on my mobile phone, informing me that the soldier and his vehicle were finally heading my way," he said.

"The moment arrived. The Bradley stopped and the soldier stood on it ready to relieve himself. He was relaxed. He put his hand on his trousers. I took aim and fired one shot and saw him drop dead."

Abu Othman punctuated the story with praise to Allah for his success. "It was the perfect situation for me," he said. "The soldier was standing and that made him such an easy target."

In the world of the Iraqi insurgents, Abu Othman, not his real name, is a celebrity. Known to all as The Sniper, he is acclaimed for the consistency with which he dispatches victims - US troops and Iraqi "collaborators" - from ranges of 1000m or more.

The tale of how a humble calligrapher became a renowned marksman by teaching himself from websites, honing his skills with computer games and studying Hollywood films such as The Deer Hunter is the stuff of legend in the Sunni triangle of militant towns to the north and west of Baghdad.

One commander after another had boasted to me of his prowess and when a meeting was arranged at a house in the capital's suburbs last week, the most striking thing about Abu Othman was his unadulterated pride in killing.

He claimed to have killed 29 men in all - 20 Americans and nine Iraqis. "I want to cry when I speak about my work," he said at one point during our interview. "I am so afraid that God will deprive me of this talent he bestowed upon me."

The son of a senior police officer, Abu Othman dropped out of school to join Saddam Hussein's army but, to his family's horror, went absent without leave and lived like a fugitive for years, eventually finding work as a shepherd in the desert that straddles Iraq's borders with Syria and Jordan.

When Saddam fell, he returned to his home town of Fallujah with his wife and four children. Soon afterwards came the first outpouring of hostility to US troops in the town. They opened fire on a crowd of demonstrators, killing 13. The incident stirred in Abu Othman a potent mix of nationalist fervour and religious zeal. "I decided to do something more with my life," he said.

Two passions persuaded him that he was destined to be a sniper. He loved to shoot birds and was also a skilled calligrapher, engraving glass with handwritten verses from the Koran. He was convinced that the precision and patience this entailed would serve him well in the insurgency. "Sniping was the most natural thing for me to progress to," he said.

He pushed himself hard to make up for what he lacked in education, reading manuals and grasping the rudiments of mathematics and physics required to calculate the range of a target, a bullet's drop over distance, the impact of wind speed and all the other technical intricacies of sharpshooting. He found lots of help on the internet.

For months his entertainment included shooting games on his PlayStation. He believes they sharpened his senses. His favourite films included Enemy at the Gates, starring Jude Law as a sniper, and JFK, Oliver Stone's recreation of the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

Borrowing a sniper rifle, he practised for hours in the desert, firing at wooden targets he had fashioned in the shape of men. "I practised various distances, from 300m to 1000m," he said. "I trained until I felt ready to go and try my skills in the field."

That moment came last April, as US forces prepared for an assault on the rebel bastion of Fallujah. Carrying another borrowed rifle, Abu Othman volunteered his services to the insurgents.

"A day or two later they sent me a note asking me to take care of an officer in an American convoy who was involved in negotiating ceasefire conditions with officials from Fallujah," he said.

The insurgents ordered him to a mosque. "I was scared as I made my way there. It was my first mission and my mind was racing: would I get the target or would I not?"

He climbed up to the minaret with a member of a surveillance team that had identified the US officer as a target and was able to point him out among a group of soldiers in the street below.

Before setting up his rifle, Abu Othman said takbeers - repeating "Allahu akbar (God is greatest)" over and over again. "I looked through the scope, worked out the calculations and fired. I saw him drop in the middle of the soldiers.

"The mood in the mosque was buoyant ... people and sheiks hugged me and congratulated me and there were more takbeers." Later, the sheiks treated him to a large lunch where Pepsi flowed like water. "The mood was beautiful and I returned home almost out of my mind with joy."

He received a visit from the fighters that night. "They came with a present," Abu Othman said excitedly. "They gave me my own personal sniper rifle as a token of their appreciation and a sign of their confidence in my abilities. It was still wrapped in its nylon."

The weapon was a semi-automatic SVD Dragunov sniper rifle, with a range of more than 1200m. The insurgents soon called for him again, this time to "take out" an American sniper on the roof of a house on one of Fallujah's front lines.

He was escorted to another house some distance away that gave him an uninterrupted view of the American's position. Abu Othman brought with him a home-made dummy head - a painted face on a stick topped off with a chequered headdress. His companion used it to create a diversion while Abu Othman made his calculations.

"I put my trust in God," he said. "My only feeling was that I must kill him. Everything was ready. I looked into my scope and saw movement from the hole in the wall. I fired and waited.

"There was silence from his side. I wasn't even sure whether I'd got him. Some other mujaheddin threw a few grenades at the house where he was positioned and when there was still no response they stormed the place. They found him dead on the rooftop with a bullet in his face."

What drives him to keep killing? "When I snipe at my target and watch him drop, I feel elated - dizzy with ecstasy. I fall on the ground, shouting to God, calling 'Allahu akbar', for God is indeed great," he said. "When their snipers kill one of us, we go to heaven as martyrs, but when we kill them they go to hell."

From The Sunday Times of London in The Australian

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12321175-401,00.html

[Nodbugger]

It is an obvious lie that he killed a sniper for the simple reason they do not operate alone.

[ajcrowley]

It is an obvious lie that he killed a sniper for the simple reason they do not operate alone.

regardless of the facts i was surprised a news limited publication would print the story

[Nodbugger]

And the part about the soldier exposing himself around women, the guy is Muslim, he treats women like shit. That right there is extremely out of character.

And with the officer. He wouldn't be out in the open like that.

[Nodbugger]

regardless of the facts i was surprised a news limited publication would print the story

Which is another reason I think it is fabricated.

[Blink]

Damn I just submitted the same thing as news 5 mins ago...beat me to it...I'll see if I can close my thread down..

[DOGG]

It is an obvious lie that he killed a sniper for the simple reason they do not operate alone.

maybe his spotter crapped his pants when he saw his buddy's head explode and fled?

[Blink]

Which is another reason I think it is fabricated.

Deny, deny, deny!!! You're as good as Saddam's former "information" minister Noddy.

[davery]

And the part about the soldier exposing himself around women, the guy is Muslim, he treats women like shit. That right there is extremely out of character.
What a load of shit.

In every society, there are cunts that mistreat women (yeah, plenty in the US as anywhere else). You do realise that the Islamic view of women is not really that different from the bliblical stance, namely that women are to be submissive to their husbands ? In fact, women's rights in the Koran are more developped than the Judeo-Christian ones...

Furthermore, regardless of any man's opinion of the worth of his women, if their laws state that men are not to expose themself in public, and the enemy repeatedly (and unabashedly) does so, would they not be mortally offended and want to do something about it ? If there was a bum living in your area that flashed anyone walking by, would you not want something done about it ?

Some points to ponder on:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the martial gift you have given them, except when they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary, live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike a thing through which Allah brings about a great deal of good. (Qur'an 4:19)

A man came to Prophet Muhammad (P) asking, "O Messenger of Allah, who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship?" The Prophet (P) said, "Your mother". The man said, "Then, who is next?" The Prophet (P) said, "Your mother". The man said, "Then, who is next?" The Prophet (P) said, "Your mother". The man further asked, "Then who is next?" Only then did the Prophet (P) say, "Your father." (Al-Bukhari) [19].

[Juice Biscuit]

Great a local hero, that's exactly what they need.

I wonder if Mel Gibson will deciede to make a big bullshit movie about it, like he did with Braveheart.

[Nodbugger]

maybe his spotter crapped his pants when he saw his buddy's head explode and fled?

It simply would not have happened.

[Nodbugger]

What a load of shit.

In every society, there are cunts that mistreat women (yeah, plenty in the US as anywhere else). You do realise that the Islamic view of women is not really that different from the bliblical stance, namely that women are to be submissive to their husbands ? In fact, women's rights in the Koran are more developped than the Judeo-Christian ones...

Furthermore, regardless of any man's opinion of the worth of his women, if their laws state that men are not to expose themself in public, and the enemy repeatedly (and unabashedly) does so, would they not be mortally offended and want to do something about it ? If there was a bum living in your area that flashed anyone walking by, would you not want something done about it ?

Some points to ponder on:


You have no point, it is a well known fact the Muslim world treats women like shit. Even the most liberal person , Bill Mahrer, says that every chance he gets.

[Nodbugger]

Great a local hero, that's exactly what they need.

I wonder if Mel Gibson will deciede to make a big bullshit movie about it, like he did with Braveheart.

You are a fucking idiot, this idiot, if he is real, should be be ripped apart by dogs.

[Juice Biscuit]

You are a fucking idiot, this idiot, if he is real, should be be ripped apart by dogs.


Yeah, you should have seen what the English did to William Wallace, much worse than the film. :fu:

[Up_All_Night]

And the part about the soldier exposing himself around women, the guy is Muslim, he treats women like shit. That right there is extremely out of character.


what a piece of shit, you racist fuck

that just proves your lack of knowledge

[Nodbugger]

Yeah, you should have seen what the English did to William Wallace, much worse than the film. :fu:

They didn't even show what they did to him, it was just some guy going down on him, with Mel Gibson making fucked up faces.

[Nodbugger]

what a piece of shit, you racist fuck

that just proves your lack of knowledge

Muslim is not a race, and their beliefs towards women are fucked up.

I know 3 people who are Muslim, and they all say their families left their countries because of how fucked up they are.

[davery]

You have no point, it is a well known fact the Muslim world treats women like shit. Even the most liberal person , Bill Mahrer, says that every chance he gets.
No, it is an often repeated *claim* - somehow I don't think you can speak for all (or even any) Muslims in stating that fallacy.

Who the fuck is Bill Mahrer, and why should I care what he says ?

Having lived in a Muslim country (Tunisia) for 5 years and gone to school there (albeit a French school), I am more than familiar with Islamic society and their culture.

[Nodbugger]

No, it is an often repeated *claim* - somehow I don't think you can speak for all (or even any) Muslims in stating that fallacy.

Who the fuck is Bill Mahrer, and why should I care what he says ?

Having lived in a Muslim country (Tunisia) for 5 years and gone to school there (albeit a French school), I am more than familiar with Islamic society and their culture.


Tunisian Muslims are not middle eastern Muslims.

[davery]

I know 3 people who are Muslim, and they all say their families left their countries because of how fucked up they are.
Culture and faith are very different...

Some countries are fucked up, no question about it. Some states in the US are pretty fucked up too. Still doesn't justify making sweeping generalisations about whole cultures.

I think Up_All_Night is quite justified in calling you a racist cunt, the term does not just apply to race (regardless of what you may think).

racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance; "racist remarks" 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]

[Juice Biscuit]

They didn't even show what they did to him, it was just some guy going down on him, with Mel Gibson making fucked up faces.



I think the scene of the jestors pulling rope out off one of the jestor's stomach, and then having him Wallace hung didn't make it too hard to guess what was happining.

[davery]

Tunisian Muslims are not middle eastern Muslims.
I'm not sure I follow your point. You are making generalised claims about all Muslims... How do you personally know how Iraqi men treat their women ?

I will concede that Afghani men had/have a terrible attitude towards their women, sponsored by their religious leaders, but I don't believe the same holds true in Iraq (which you may recall was a secular society, given that Saddam was a secular ruler).

[Juice Biscuit]

You have no point, it is a well known fact the Muslim world treats women like shit. Even the most liberal person , Bill Mahrer, says that every chance he gets.


Quit making claims that you can't back up.


A) Isn't Bill Mahrer a Jew that spent his entire life in the US
B) Please provide some link to him saying this.


Alot of Muslims do treat their wives like shit, but how many god loving republicans have beaten their wives over the years? :D

[Nodbugger]

Culture and faith are very different...

Some countries are fucked up, no question about it. Some states in the US are pretty fucked up too. Still doesn't justify making sweeping generalisations about whole cultures.

I think Up_All_Night is quite justified in calling you a racist cunt, the term does not just apply to race (regardless of what you may think).

So then how come they are in Middle Eastern Muslim countries?

In seems the customs are located in the Middle East, but not every middle Eastern country, and it seems the Muslim countries in the Middle East are the offenders.

So Middle Eastern Muslim countries treat women like shit.

It is in no way racists, I don't hate them. I just say they have some fucked up rules.

I have been to the Philippines and Saudi Arabia, so I know there is a difference.

The only Middle Eastern Muslim country that doesn't treat women like shit is Kuwait.

[Juice Biscuit]

I have been to the Philippines and Saudi Arabia, so I know there is a difference.

The only Middle Eastern Muslim country that doesn't treat women like shit is Kuwait.


Let me guess you went to a milatary compound in Saudi Arabia?


Saudi Arabia has some of the biggest fucked up laws on earth.

Where did you go in Saudi Arabia? Were you invited into the home of Saudi's? Did you personally watch how they lived?

[Nodbugger]

I'm not sure I follow your point. You are making generalised claims about all Muslims... How do you personally know how Iraqi men treat their women ?

I will concede that Afghani men had/have a terrible attitude towards their women, sponsored by their religious leaders, but I don't believe the same holds true in Iraq (which you may recall was a secular society, given that Saddam was a secular ruler).

I know several people who have been to Iraq.

Saddam still made sure women were kept under robes, they were not allowed to drive, go to college, or have many jobs.

[Juice Biscuit]

I know several people who have been to Iraq.

Saddam still made sure women were kept under robes, they were not allowed to drive, go to college, or have many jobs.

ahahhahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaahahhahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha hahhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahah ahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha

[Nodbugger]

Let me guess you went to a milatary compound in Saudi Arabia?


Saudi Arabia has some of the biggest fucked up laws on earth.

Where did you go in Saudi Arabia? Were you invited into the home of Saudi's? Did you personally watch how they lived?

I stayed at a Hotel, right down the street is where they cut off limbs for minor offenses.

There are no permanent American military bases in Saudi Arabia.

[Up_All_Night]

you may claim to not be racists, i dont know, i think you probably are, but have some excuse in your head as to why you're not. You cant deny you believe you and your country and way of life are superior which is a racists attitude.
regardless of whether you are, your comment was a racist one

[Juice Biscuit]

I know several people who have been to Iraq.

Saddam still made sure women were kept under robes, they were not allowed to drive, go to college, or have many jobs.


Compared to the other Muslim countries in the region the Iraqi females lived in the promised land.

[Nodbugger]

Quit making claims that you can't back up.


A) Isn't Bill Mahrer a Jew that spent his entire life in the US
B) Please provide some link to him saying this.


Alot of Muslims do treat their wives like shit, but how many god loving republicans have beaten their wives over the years? :D

I'm not sure, but I watch his show all the time. Even though I disagree with 99% of the things he says.

[Nodbugger]

you may claim to not be racists, i dont know, i think you probably are, but have some excuse in your head as to why you're not. You cant deny you believe you and your country and way of life are superior which is a racists attitude.
regardless of whether you are, your comment was a racist one

no it isn't you stupid fuck. I would type a long response to your stupid shit, but I burnt my right hand and cannot take it off the ice. My fingers are all blistered and they hurt when taken off the cold.

[Nodbugger]

Compared to the other Muslim countries in the region the Iraqi females lived in the promised land.and compared to western countries they lived in a big pile of shit.

[gunsella]

it is a racist comment because you made a generalisation about either

a) all muslims
b) all middle eastern muslims
c) all middle eastern muslims except kuwaitis.

unless you have canvassed the opinions of every single person from either a) b) or c), you are making broad sweeping statements which most of us call racist statements.

[Nodbugger]

it is a racist comment because you made a generalisation about either

a) all muslims
b) all middle eastern muslims
c) all middle eastern muslims except kuwaitis.

unless you have canvassed the opinions of every single person from either a) b) or c), you are making broad sweeping statements which most of us call racist statements.

It is in no way racist.

[Juice Biscuit]

I'm not sure, but I watch his show all the time. Even though I disagree with 99% of the things he says.


Then digging up a quote shouldn't be too hard.


Untill you can you are just providing rumour and not a valid argument.

[Juice Biscuit]

and compared to western countries they lived in a big pile of shit.


Why?

Please provide references?

[Nodbugger]

Then digging up a quote shouldn't be too hard.


Untill you can you are just providing rumour and not a valid argument.

I watched the fucking show last night, he said the Muslim world treats women horribly and we should torture them with lap dances!

[Nodbugger]

Why?

Please provide references?

Name one famous Muslim woman from a Muslim country in the Middle East who did not have to overcome being a woman to get famous, and no examples where they were killed.

[gunsella]

these don't sound like references, or quotes.

losing credibility v quickly.


ha. what credibility?

[Nodbugger]

these don't sound like references, or quotes.

losing credibility v quickly.


ha. what credibility?

Go away.

[gunsella]

Go away.

argue sensibly

[Nodbugger]

argue sensibly

Not everything is on the Internet, I cannot just get quotes.

[gunsella]

Not everything is on the Internet, I cannot just get quotes.

you could try searching through his official website (http://www.safesearching.com/billmaher/print/transcripts.shtml) , you lazy loser.

[Juice Biscuit]

I watched the fucking show last night, he said the Muslim world treats women horribly and we should torture them with lap dances!


Can you provide the date and show number of the quote?

[berserk]

Provided he is alive when/if the Yanks leave Iraq, what are the odds on Abu Othman being recruited by international Jihadists to use his sniping skills overseas, like say in Chechnya or Palestine?

[Juice Biscuit]

Name one famous Muslim woman from a Muslim country in the Middle East who did not have to overcome being a woman to get famous, and no examples where they were killed.



No, I won't provide a link on the basis that if I don't you will claim that they never have. So by your own logic, Saddam never had WOMD becuase you can't find them, fucking up your own argument of the last couple of weeks, that just because you cann't find them doesn't mean that he didn't have them.



HAhahahahhahahahahaahh busted by your own logic again. :fu:

[Juice Biscuit]

Not everything is on the Internet, I cannot just get quotes.


Then your argument is not valid.

[Nodbugger]

Can you provide the date and show number of the quote?

It was his latest episode and it was on HBO last night. Robin Williams was a guest.

[Nodbugger]

No, I won't provide a link on the basis that if I don't you will claim that they never have. So by your own logic, Saddam never had WOMD becuase you can't find them, fucking up your own argument of the last couple of weeks, that just because you cann't find them doesn't mean that he didn't have them.



HAhahahahhahahahahaahh busted by your own logic again. :fu:


um...that in no way busts up the logic. Because wmd being in Iraq are different than famous Muslim women. Famous Muslim women don't just go to another country or get dismantled.

[davery]

Saddam still made sure women were kept under robes, they were not allowed to drive, go to college, or have many jobs.

Iraqi women traditionally have enjoyed more rights, even under the Saddam regime, than women in the surrounding Arab countries. Now with the possibility of a Muslim conservative regime gaining power, Iraqi women are worried that their hard-won rights will be taken away.

In 1970, under Saddam’s secular Baath party, the constitution declared all women and men equal under the law, according to a BBC article on March 31, 2003.

Labor shortages during the ’70s and ’80s caused the government to hire more women. During that peak time of women’s rights, some women walked down the streets in mini-skirts, according to a San Francisco Chronicle article on Jan. 25, 2003. By 1980, women could vote and run for elections, according to the BBC article.

During the Iraq-Iran War in the 1980s and the 1991 Gulf War, women held many of the jobs left by male soldiers. Many of the soldiers did not come back, making women-headed families more common in Iraq, according to an online Women’s E-news article.

Women’s rights took a downturn in Iraq as the economy worsened due to U.N. economic sanctions, according to the BBC article. They lost their jobs and abandoned their education; nationwide, women’s literacy figure plummeted.

In an effort to draw support from the religious leaders and community, Saddam steered the country towards a decisively religious conservatism, according to the BBC article. Polygamy was legalized for Muslims, high schools were segregated by sex, and limits were imposed on women’s traveling.

http://courses.washington.edu/com361/Iraq/religion/women_iraq.html
Interesting points there... namely that it was as a result of the UN sanctions that women were marginalised.

Furthermore:

Even as Saddam changed his party outlook to be more decidedly Islamic so as to gain support from the masses, Iraqi women still enjoy more rights as they are still permitted to hold jobs and attend higher education, all with uncovered faces.

For example, Iraqi law still mandates equality of sexes in employment and education, according to the San Francisco Chronicle article.

Under Iraqi law, women receive the same pay as men for professional jobs; women make up 20% of the professional workforce, according to a Dallas Morning News article on May 6, 2003. Women can join the army and police forces, according to a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article on April 6, 2003. They are protected from exploitation in the workplace and sexual harassment.

Women receive six months of paid maternity leave and can opt for additional six months of unpaid maternity leave, according to the San Francisco Chronicle article.

Iraq’s divorce law is comparatively more balanced than the divorce law in other Arab countries. Whereas Iraq’s divorce law requires the husband to pay back the wife’s dowry, some Arab countries do not even grant women the legal rights to divorce their husbands. Further, Iraq women have the legal right to hold property and receive inheritance, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article.

Most important of all, women can participate in the government through suffrage and holding positions in the government. Women had almost 20% of Parliament seats during Saddam’s reign, compared to the average 3.5% in other Middle East parliaments, according to a Press Association article.

Although political experts do not deny the brutal atrocities of Saddam’s regime against women, they point out that these atrocities are primarily an attempt to squash political dissent.

The Saddam regime did not differentiate between torturing male or female political dissenters—although rape is not among the atrocities experienced by male victims. Therefore, experts argue that these brutalities were not attempts to subjugate women but a calculated political move, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article.

In the face of a regime change, Iraqi women hope that they may enjoy even more rights. However, religious groups who were oppressed during Saddam’s rule, such as the majority Shiite Muslims, are gaining political prominence. The increasing likelihood of an Islam conservative party in power worries some women that their existing rights may be taken away from them.

"We want a free, secular Iraq with guarantees of equal rights for women," said Yanar Mohammed, who worked with the Independent Women's Organization (IWO) in Kurdistan to hide and shelter women fleeing violence, according to a Toronto Star article on April 19, 2003.

"None of the parties represented in the so-called opposition have any commitment to women's equality. In fact, most of them participated in Saddam's oppression," Mohammed added.

http://courses.washington.edu/com361/Iraq/religion/women_iraq.html (same article)

Rather conclusive proof that your claims are completely incorrect, don't you think ?

Seperate (and slightly off-topic reading): http://www.womenwarpeace.org/iraq/iraq.htm

[Nodbugger]

Just because a piece of paper says something doesn't mean that is what happens.

[gunsella]

Just because a piece of paper says something doesn't mean that is what happens.

then why are you so sure that WMDs were in Iraq?

[berserk]

fuck it noddy, i haven't -repped you for a long time but you deserve it this time. You were wrong about women's status in iraq. suck it up & get it over with.

[jak]

um...that in no way busts up the logic. Because wmd being in Iraq are different than famous Muslim women. Famous Muslim women don't just go to another country or get dismantled.

Same principle, different application.

Not hard to understand.

[Nodbugger]

Same principle, different application.

Not hard to understand.

Totally different things that cannot be described in the same way.

[Nodbugger]

then why are you so sure that WMDs were in Iraq?

How do either of those have any connection?

[Nodbugger]

fuck it noddy, i haven't -repped you for a long time but you deserve it this time. You were wrong about women's status in iraq. suck it up & get it over with.

No I wasn't, they just were not as bad as some other countries. Still nothing compared to western standards.

[ersatz]

Meanwhile, children in Fallujia have been spotted wearing bracelets inscribed with "1 Shot 1 Kill No Remorse I Decide".

[jak]

How do either of those have any connection?

you do have a problem with the *application* of a principle huh?

You are simply wrong.

[Nodbugger]

you do have a problem with the *application* of a principle huh?

You are simply wrong.

The principle cannot be applied to every situation, you are wrong.

[berserk]

No I wasn't, they just were not as bad as some other countries. Still nothing compared to western standards.

Irrelevant. Your original assertion
Saddam still made sure women were kept under robes, they were not allowed to drive, go to college, or have many jobs.
is absolutely & inconvertibly Untrue.

Introducing extraneous claims about this or that will not dilute the fact that YOU WERE WRONG.

[Nodbugger]

Irrelevant. Your original assertion

is absolutely & inconvertibly Untrue.

Introducing extraneous claims about this or that will not dilute the fact that YOU WERE WRONG.

No I wasn't. In america we had a thing called flappers. Iraq had something similar.

http://www.equalityiniraq.com/english.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2986962.stm (i know 3 months after the war started)

http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/18877.htm

[locust]

You are a fucking idiot, this idiot, if he is real, should be be ripped apart by dogs.
Funny you should say that, I bet lots of Iraqis think that's exactly what happens to people who end up in Abu Ghraib.

[jak]

The principle cannot be applied to every situation, you are wrong.

But it can be applied to the two situations given. Context, nodbugger, context.

You are *simply* wrong.

[Juice Biscuit]

No I wasn't. In america we had a thing called flappers. Iraq had something similar.

http://www.equalityiniraq.com/english.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2986962.stm (i know 3 months after the war started)

http://www.state.gov/g/wi/rls/18877.htm


The first link contains:

Why I am not taking part in these phoney elections by: Houzan Mahmoud

A delegate from Worker Communist Party of Iraq and Organization of Women’s Freedom in Iraq

* Defend the People of Falluja. Yanar Mohammed 17/11/2004


So you obtained the first link from a page that calls for an end to the occupation, supports communism, and has a few things to say about the Falluja incidents.


The second link contains this quote:

UN officials have raised the issue with American and British forces.

They also say Iraqi women can no longer drive or walk in the streets at night as freely as they did in pre-war Iraq.

And women have been victims not only of intimidation, but also of the lawlessness of the last few weeks, says the BBC's Caroline Hawley.

No statistics are available, but Iraqis say there has been a significant increase in rape.


And the last link contains crimes that were also commited mainly on men, exept for the raping, and not only that but crimes that are commited throughout Saudi Arabia.




I can now see why you never provide links as they have a nasty habit of proving you wrong, this is I think the 3rd but def the second time that I have proven you wrong with your own references.

[Scumbag]

The third link is www.thestate.gov


Government propoganda straight from the horses mouth.

[Nodbugger]

But it can be applied to the two situations given. Context, nodbugger, context.

You are *simply* wrong.


It can, but not these two.

[Nodbugger]

The first link contains:

Why I am not taking part in these phoney elections by: Houzan Mahmoud

A delegate from Worker Communist Party of Iraq and Organization of Women’s Freedom in Iraq

* Defend the People of Falluja. Yanar Mohammed 17/11/2004


So you obtained the first link from a page that calls for an end to the occupation, supports communism, and has a few things to say about the Falluja incidents.


The second link contains this quote:




And the last link contains crimes that were also commited mainly on men, exept for the raping, and not only that but crimes that are commited throughout Saudi Arabia.




I can now see why you never provide links as they have a nasty habit of proving you wrong, this is I think the 3rd but def the second time that I have proven you wrong with your own references.


How do they prove me wrong? they all say women are treated like shit. It is a fact. Now live with it, Saddam isn't a perfect Human being like you make him out to be.

[Nodbugger]

The third link is www.thestate.gov


Government propoganda straight from the horses mouth.

It isn't government propaganda, the government can't and doesn't do things like that.


Read the damn constitution you fucking retard.

[Juice Biscuit]

How do they prove me wrong? they all say women are treated like shit. It is a fact. Now live with it, Saddam isn't a perfect Human being like you make him out to be.

read what I typed again over the last couple of pages, read what you posted, read your links and then come back and tell me why exactly you either wrong or right.


Please provide quotes to support your argument.

[Juice Biscuit]

It isn't government propaganda, the government can't and doesn't do things like that.


Read the damn constitution you fucking retard.



So you are saying that the US government is unable to explain why it's policies are policies?



You're wrong again Noddy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Propaganda

[Directed]

Not to distract you all from the joy of trashing Noddy, and Noddy's joy of trashing back, but I noticed something different.

Is anyone disturbed by this mans almost spiritual joy in killing people, One of whom was trying to negotiate ceasefire conditions so that there could be less killing? I am sure this guy exaggerates his kills (just about everybody would), but I am just as sure there are snipers like him who enjoy it so much. Anyone detect a hint of evil from this guy? Just wondering, and then you can go back to trashing Noddy or the anti-Noddies.

[TheMightyPhill]

I thought a similar thing.... it was his joy that got me too, aside from the usual war crap of who is right and wrong (why do I always get to the 'Noddy suffering from tunnel vision' threads so late??) it was the happiness he got from killing. I don't know heaps about the Muslim faith but surely that's not typical?
Poor parallel, but similar to why bouncers become bouncers so they can beat on dudes and call it a job?
Scary guy either way....

[Juice Biscuit]

Not to distract you all from the joy of trashing Noddy, and Noddy's joy of trashing back, but I noticed something different.

Is anyone disturbed by this mans almost spiritual joy in killing people, One of whom was trying to negotiate ceasefire conditions so that there could be less killing? I am sure this guy exaggerates his kills (just about everybody would), but I am just as sure there are snipers like him who enjoy it so much. Anyone detect a hint of evil from this guy? Just wondering, and then you can go back to trashing Noddy or the anti-Noddies.

It happens, people disassociate the fact that the people are firing at are actually people, they're Krauts, Japs, Commies, Gooks, Camel fuckers or Dune Coons, or they are evil or some other form of subhuman entity. Also the fear or adrenaline takes over and your ability to think rationally goes out the window.


Have you seen the doco Soundtrack to war? If you haven't I'd advise you to get your hands on a copy. The interviews with many of the US servicemen gives the view of many differing views of men and women and their feelings about Iraq, from despair to treating it like an extreme sports holiday. Pilots in WWII also talk about the time they realised that they were killing people and not just shooting down planes.



There were parts in the doco where the soldiers were talking about the music in battle, they were like a real life version of the chopper scene in Apocalypse now and not the reality of actually trying to kill people or having people trying to kill them.

The question though is did they appear to not understand what were they really doing? Or was the brain doing its best to try and not think about the fact that the tanks and buildings they were aiming at had actual people inside not simply targets?

[Bostonmess]

Is anyone disturbed by this mans almost spiritual joy in killing people, One of whom was trying to negotiate ceasefire conditions so that there could be less killing? I am sure this guy exaggerates his kills (just about everybody would), but I am just as sure there are snipers like him who enjoy it so much. Anyone detect a hint of evil from this guy?

He's into the thrill, adrenalin rush, they all get that. People get it from driving fast, shooting a gun, bungee jumping, playing counterstrike. Obviously when you're actually killing others, it's wrong.

I've seen Yanks giving the old "Yeehaawww" when they've blown something up and I've seen Muslims cheering when the two towers went down. It's sick, it's sad, it's retarded.

[davery]

How do they prove me wrong? they all say women are treated like shit. It is a fact.

Let's spell it out. You made the following claim...

Saddam still made sure women were kept under robes, they were not allowed to drive, go to college, or have many jobs.

You attempted to support this statement with the following quote.

Since the end of the conflict in Iraq, radical factions in Iraq's Sunni and Shia Muslim communities have been asserting themselves in the ensuing period of instability.

One Iraqi UN staff member recently received a handwritten letter at home saying she would be killed unless she started covering her hair.

The spokesman for the UN Children's Fund, Geoffrey Keele, said that in some areas there had also been pressure on schoolgirls to start putting on the veil.

"It's an issue of people's rights - it's an issue not only of women's rights, but human rights - and people have a right to choose whether or not they wear the veil, what religion they practise, how they practise that religion," he told the BBC.

UN officials have raised the issue with American and British forces.

They also say Iraqi women can no longer drive or walk in the streets at night as freely as they did in pre-war Iraq.
Just to spell it out for you - SINCE the end of the war they cannot drive or walk the streets at night, whereas BEFORE the war (ie. under Saddam) they could.

Sounds like women's rights are regressing to me - well done guys, you've managed to make people's lives worse post-Saddam, rather than better. I hate to say it, but this is one instance where having Saddam in power was a good thing - he kept the religious extremists in check. That barrier is now gone, and under the auspices of democracy, the religious parties can sieze control.

Yes, I know I was defending Islam faith earlier - I still sustain that there is nothing wrong with the Muslim faith, except when fundamentalists are involved (just as I have no issues with the Chritian faith, except when right-wing nutjobs are involved - think Bible-belt USA).

[davery]

Is anyone disturbed by this mans almost spiritual joy in killing people
Yes, I am disturbed by any person that takes pleasure in killing others, whatever side they are fighting for...

Holds just as true for the US forces, as discussed here: http://forums.zgeek.com/showthread.php?t=30009

[Up_All_Night]

no it isn't you stupid fuck. I would type a long response to your stupid shit, but I burnt my right hand and cannot take it off the ice. My fingers are all blistered and they hurt when taken off the cold.

hand better yet noddy... funny u had no problems writing all the other posts...


Just because a piece of paper says something doesn't mean that is what happens.
just cause you say it, doesnt mean its true

How do they prove me wrong? they all say women are treated like shit. It is a fact. Now live with it, Saddam isn't a perfect Human being like you make him out to be.
statements like this, prove your inability to argue. You have done this numerous times, and is a tactic used by those morons at fox news, and other republican propaganderists. Someone says something not flattering about their view point, so they then make a statement with a false made up viewpoint of the other person, to discredit them, because they cant do it any other way than lying.

example of this in practice. Whenever someone says the american foreign policy plays a part in terrorists hating america, the statement is made that the person, "believes those that died on 9/11 deserved it" which is a complete lie. But then it evokes feelings in idiots(majority of ameircans.. well maybe not majority.. but enough) who then go, how dare that person... so any reasonable argument contray to what the govt wants.. whether justified / reasonable or not will not be listened to.

[Nodbugger]

Let's spell it out. You made the following claim...



You attempted to support this statement with the following quote.


Just to spell it out for you - SINCE the end of the war they cannot drive or walk the streets at night, whereas BEFORE the war (ie. under Saddam) they could.

Sounds like women's rights are regressing to me - well done guys, you've managed to make people's lives worse post-Saddam, rather than better. I hate to say it, but this is one instance where having Saddam in power was a good thing - he kept the religious extremists in check. That barrier is now gone, and under the auspices of democracy, the religious parties can sieze control.

Yes, I know I was defending Islam faith earlier - I still sustain that there is nothing wrong with the Muslim faith, except when fundamentalists are involved (just as I have no issues with the Chritian faith, except when right-wing nutjobs are involved - think Bible-belt USA).


I hate to tell you that you cannot go from dictator, to war, to insurgency and keep people as free as they want to be. Just because you think this is plug and play world doesn't mean things actually happen perfectly.

[Nodbugger]

hand better yet noddy... funny u had no problems writing all the other posts...



just cause you say it, doesnt mean its true


statements like this, prove your inability to argue. You have done this numerous times, and is a tactic used by those morons at fox news, and other republican propaganderists. Someone says something not flattering about their view point, so they then make a statement with a false made up viewpoint of the other person, to discredit them, because they cant do it any other way than lying.

example of this in practice. Whenever someone says the american foreign policy plays a part in terrorists hating america, the statement is made that the person, "believes those that died on 9/11 deserved it" which is a complete lie. But then it evokes feelings in idiots(majority of ameircans.. well maybe not majority.. but enough) who then go, how dare that person... so any reasonable argument contray to what the govt wants.. whether justified / reasonable or not will not be listened to.


No.

[gunsella]

No.

do you really, no, really expect anyone to take you seriously or even be remotely convinced by your point of view when you express yourself with insults and one word rebuttals?
do you read anyone else's posts?

[Up_All_Night]

and you wonder why everyone things you're an idiot... except ya mummy and daddy

[jak]

No.

Actually yes. He is summed you (well, one of your traits) up rather well. 10 points for perception and 2 points of +rep for Up_All_Night.

[Nodbugger]

do you really, no, really expect anyone to take you seriously or even be remotely convinced by your point of view when you express yourself with insults and one word rebuttals?
do you read anyone else's posts?


A simple 'no' is all that filth deserves.

[gunsella]

you did not answer the question...

do you really expect anyone to take you seriously or even be remotely convinced by your point of view when you express yourself with insults and one word rebuttals?

[berserk]

I hate to tell you that you cannot go from dictator, to war, to insurgency and keep people as free as blah blah blah

Again, IRRELEVANT!

The crux of the matter is that you made a claim
Saddam still made sure women were kept under robes, they were not allowed to drive, go to college, or have many jobs. which is a factual error.

No amount of equivocation will get you away from the unpleasant truth that you are in error on the facts of women drivers, education & employment Iraq under Saddam.

In Saddam's Iraq, women were not legally coerced to wear head-to-toe robes, or banned from driving, or deprived of tertiary education, or barred from jobs.

[Merudo]

Meanwhile, children in Fallujia have been spotted wearing bracelets inscribed with "1 Shot 1 Kill No Remorse I Decide".
AHAHAHHAAHA

They're running their own sniper-sponsor thingie now are they? :D

[davery]

I hate to tell you that you cannot go from dictator, to war, to insurgency and keep people as free as they want to be. Just because you think this is plug and play world doesn't mean things actually happen perfectly.
You seem to have missed the point completely. Freedom is a deceptive ideal..

Under Saddam's secular rule, the religious leaders held little power. Under democracy, people will vote for their religion (either because they believe it's right, or as a backlash against perceived westernisation). Net result, the country comes under religious leadership and Sharia law + Hadd offenses are not far behind.

This is exactly what you were complaining about in other middle Eastern countries. Or do you feel that the US should step in and ensure they get the "right kind" of government ? Which would belie the intent of giving Iraq democracy.

Remember seperation of church and state is a Western ideal, but is not a critical factor of democracy.

[Nodbugger]

you did not answer the question...

do you really expect anyone to take you seriously or even be remotely convinced by your point of view when you express yourself with insults and one word rebuttals?


It is better than you being completely wrong.

[Nodbugger]

Again, IRRELEVANT!

The crux of the matter is that you made a claim
which is a factual error.

No amount of equivocation will get you away from the unpleasant truth that you are in error on the facts of women drivers, education & employment Iraq under Saddam.

In Saddam's Iraq, women were not legally coerced to wear head-to-toe robes, or banned from driving, or deprived of tertiary education, or barred from jobs.


Yes they were, read the links I posted.

[Nodbugger]

You seem to have missed the point completely. Freedom is a deceptive ideal..

Under Saddam's secular rule, the religious leaders held little power. Under democracy, people will vote for their religion (either because they believe it's right, or as a backlash against perceived westernisation). Net result, the country comes under religious leadership and Sharia law + Hadd offenses are not far behind.

This is exactly what you were complaining about in other middle Eastern countries. Or do you feel that the US should step in and ensure they get the "right kind" of government ? Which would belie the intent of giving Iraq democracy.

Remember seperation of church and state is a Western ideal, but is not a critical factor of democracy.


You are going to extremes.

[gunsella]

that took you a week?

and where was i wrong?

[Nodbugger]

that took you a week?

and where was i wrong?

It took me a week because , unlike many of you, I have things to do.

And you were wrong on just about ever exertion.

[Merudo]

It took me a week because , unlike many of you, I have things to do.


You can't bullshit us! :fu:

[banga]

You can't bullshit us! :fu:

good comeback merudo . well done you scholar you ! :fag: