Recruitment consultant Bastards

[JackFeeney]

I noted some users of the forum had issues with Recruitment Consultants / Agents. In a recent interview on www.objectmonkey.com I proposed that they be flogged and / or used to put out forest fires:

http://www.objectmonkey.com/?A=getcolumnpiece&Ar=p=48^c=6^i=15^

I believe the only good recruiter is a dead recruiter but would welcome feedback - whats your thoughts ? Are they all scum-sucking bottom feeders or do some of them actually make a contribution ?

My first book )In Search Of Competence) details the pitfalls of dealing with Recruiters and always explains weeding & Feeding, backhole filling and scratching & matching protocol. If you deal with a recruiter you need to read this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1903464471/qid%3D1093080823/sr%3D1-8/ref%3Dsr%5F1%5F11%5F8/202-0262535-4067015

ENJOY !

[dozer]

i agree 95% of them are scum, but i do know some of the 5% of good ones.

i got -ve rep for stating this the last time, some people need to grow up and face that there are cunts in their industry, this is especially true in the uk.

[JackFeeney]

i agree 95% of them are scum, but i do know some of the 5% of good ones.

i got -ve rep for stating this the last time, some people need to grow up and face that there are cunts in their industry, this is especially true in the uk.
Even more so in Ireland than the UK - It's totally unregulated here and there's even been court cases when people have had their CV's sent to their existing employers !! To set up as a recruiter in Ireland you need 500 Euro and a Certificate from the Police to state that you have not been convicted of murdering or manslaughtering anyone. As a result you can imagine the kind of parasites that set up !

[dogwomble]

I sincerely hope there is someone in Centrelink with the appropriate authority that reads this next rant from me.

I have had mixed response from various agency's. Most of the private ones you put your resume in, and you never hear back. Or if you do, you get "thanks for your interest, you're not suitable, we'll see if we've got something that is, fuck off" (which is probably autogenerated anyways). And that's the last you'll hear from them. The only really decent private one I've found are the ones that found me my current job. I have no problems in mentioning that this group is Kelly Services. (http://www.kellyservices.com.au/) While the job may not be the best job on the planet, Kelly supported me through the entire interview process and also provide some assistance while you are on site. Yes, they actually visit the site to see how you're going!!!!

The only good public funded one I've found is CRS (http://www.crsrehab.gov.au/). They got me my last job. Again, they provided me with plenty of on the job support. But being the organisation that it is, it has a really specific clientele.

The rest of them are just shithouse. Out of all the publically funded ones I've found, they all did pretty much nothing except sit on their arses and drink cups of coffee all day. One of them put me forward for a position, but it was completely unrelated to what I wanted to do, was a shithouse job on shithouse pay, and was general crap. None of them had any jobs even remotely close to what I want to do and am qualified in. The only reason I was with them was because I had to. If I had the option of telling them to stick it up their scrawny little arses with a large pencil like object, I would have done so.

Don't get me wrong, as I mentioned above there are some recruiters that go all out 1000% for the people they serve. But for some sad reason, this seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

[dwarfthrower]

I've never had a positive encounter with a recruitment company. Either as an employee or as an employer. I've been sent to interviews for 30K helpdesk roles after being promised they were 80K development roles, likewise I've been sent wet-behind-the-ears tafe graduate networking geeks when I've asked for senior developers with 5 years experience.

All recruiters seem to care about is plugging the hole and getting their comission. Not only that, they have a vested interest in the employer/employee relationship not being a terribly long one (3 months and one day would be ideal for them).

Again, not to say there aren't good ones out there, just that in my 10 years in the workforce I haven't met any of them.

[SamBo]

I have never ever had any luck with recruiters. They seem to promise you so much, yet deliver so little.
Now i know they get alot of job applicants, but I hardly think it's nice or fair to let these applicants have NFI of where they stand in applying for the job. I was once unemployed for about 8 months straight. I applied for so many jobs during that time and the majority of them were through agents. I think i was promised about 10 times the amount of interviews that i actually got. And yes, i kept calling back, I kept emailing them, hassling them as to why I hadn't heard back, but after not having my emails or phone messages returned, I gave up.
The only decent jobs I have ever gotten are through the employer themself. I hate agencies. I think they are close to the scum known as salesmen. Sure, there are some good ones out there, but I think in the past I have dealt with more agencies than I have fingers and toes and I'm yet to find one that is actually helpful and not out to just get their commission.

[BtrFly]

You have to remember that a lot of the people who apply for positions, really are shit- and inappropriate for the role, and i agree, there are a lot of agencies who only care about getting their commission. They are generally the ones that work on the low margin, high turnover roles - specifically in IT - the roles such as helpdesk etc.

HOWEVER those roles that require a team fit, and specific skills, recruiters and their resourcers work very hard in order to fill the role with THE right person. It can take time, and effort to find this person, and it is justified in the higher margins that recruiters ask for, but then the company is satisfied, and they then dont have as much turnover within their company. Did you ever think about that?

On a daily basis - I personally will look at 200+ CV's. Do you think it is feasible, or a good use of MY time to contact every single person, and have a 5 minute conversation with them? Do the maths. 200 * 5 = 1000 minutes = 16+hours. This is not a reasonable amount of time. If i spoke to people for just 2 minutes a day, that would still be around 6.5 hours of time. Factor into this the people who are ACTUALLY suitable for the role, and there you have the 8 hours i have to work in a day. I actually WORK through my lunch break most days, and generally work over my 5:30 time for finishing.

I realise you are having a rant, and that its not personally directed at me. However think about it from THE OTHER SIDE once in a while. And i know that people have come to me, even AFTER bagging out my chosen profession.

I am not saying we are all nice people, god knows we arent. We are in it to make money, but if companies werent satisfied with the work that recruiters do, they wouldnt still be around.

[SamBo]

No one expects a recruiter to respond to 200+ applicants a day, derrr. But if someone seems keen for a job and is constantly calling and emailing about it, yet gets ignored, one loses faith in the recruitment agency field.
It's even worse when you are promised an interview, and sometimes even promised a job, and yet get nothing. And yes, I mean that literally, I have been promised interviews and jobs, and received nothing.
I've spoken to employers who hate agencies, but told me that they use them because it's easier than placing the ad and screening the applicants themselves. That's fair enough I guess, but still, you'd think if you were unhappy with a service you paid top dollar for, you'd do something about it, yet, it seems most employers do nothing. *shrugs*

[dwarfthrower]

I guess, but still, you'd think if you were unhappy with a service you paid top dollar for, you'd do something about it, yet, it seems most employers do nothing. *shrugs*

Nope... I refuse to use them any more. It costs anywhere from 5 - 8 thousand dollars for me to source a developer through a recruitment company, and that doesn't take into account my time in discussing the role with the recruiter, then discussing the role with another recruiter when the first one goes missing. Then proofreading their advertising copy and correcting all the mistakes and outright lies, then dealing with umpteen phone calls to discuss any applicant that managed to spell their name correctly on their application. Trying to explain to the recruiter over and over that J2EE and .NET are not the same thing despite what some 21yo "business information" graduate fucknuckle has told him. And finally interviewing the detritus they eventually send out.

I can save time and money by simply running the add on Seek myself.

[BtrFly]

Obviously you are using the wrong company then. Because there are a few top notch companies out there, who know what they are talking about, and specialise in a field. Specifically so that they can keep your business.

And no i am not just talking about the company i work for.

Let me guess dwarf- it was manpower or some other large recruitment company?

[dwarfthrower]

Obviously you are using the wrong company then. Because there are a few top notch companies out there, who know what they are talking about, and specialise in a field. Specifically so that they can keep your business.

And no i am not just talking about the company i work for.

Let me guess dwarf- it was manpower or some other large recruitment company?

I've used Candle, IT&T before they were gobbled up by candle, Icon and Paxus... IT&T were the only ones that were competent. I actually knew two of the recruiters that worked for them quite well. After they were taken over they were both dumped and Candle is fucking hopeless. The others were barely passable.

Then again, I guess I'm usually looking for fairly specific skills, and it's a bit of a stretch to expect recruiters to fully understand the specific requiements of a position. But for $8,000.00... the service they provide is not worth the money as far as I'm concerned.

[BtrFly]

dwarf- the thing is they get you close enough on a role - and if you dont like the person, you dont have to hire them. Most of them work on a placement, not on oh i have handed you the cv- give me my money. Which makes them want to get your business.

But yeh, i have dealt with Candle, Paxus, Manpower and some of the smaller companies, all in a personal sense- when i was trying to find a job, and i found that the smaller - more personal ones were nicer to you, and treated you better than the larger ones, who operate on a bulk basis.

And i can tell you that its not only recruiters that screw you around, its the people who are direct to company as well ( i am looking directly at Atos Origin here....).

And whilst you can kick up a stink, emails, calling the recruiters. Yes they are in the wrong getting your hopes up, but realistically if your cv AND experience AND personality, isnt right, then there isnt a point in wasting your time going through an interview process.

[Chocoholic]

I meet with a recruiter 2 weeks ago she was meant to get back to me last week. I was impressed that she meet me at 7.45am however her total lack of contact after the interview has made me think twice about handing her 10% of my next salary on a plate. I was even going to offer her an invitation to an research presentation that is closely related to her Masters but if she is going to make promises she can’t keep then I am not going to go out of my way for her.

Ps I consider breaking when some one is walking in front of my car going out of my way…. My foot is on the accelerator darm it.

[dwarfthrower]

dwarf- the thing is they get you close enough on a role

They get you what _they believe_ is close enough on a role. The more general the role (ie help desk) the easier it is for them to a) understand the requirements and b) find candidates who fill 80% of the criteria.

For high-end development roles where in-depth knowledge of particular technologies can be crucial it becomes a far harder task for the recruiter to match prospective employees to the role. Most IT recruiters aren't overly knowledgeable about _all_ aspects of IT. The crack I made above regarding having to explain the difference between J2EE and .NET is an actual experience.

[Hit And Rum]

Hey dwarfthrower what type of recruiters are you using?!?! Dont know the difference between .Net and J2EE?! Dont know the difference between senior candidates and graduates!? These people shouldnt be in business and probably wont be for much longer.

I understand why people use seek etc to advertise it is totally up to the individual. Horses for courses. However just like the choice to use or not use recruiters is individual so are recruiters. To say I think all recruiters are crap or that all agencies suck is tantamount to saying all Germans/Chinese/Kiwis/Ice Cream Sales People/Doctors/Footballers/Umpires etc. A few might but not all.

In each industry and within each company there are good and bad recruiters. Clients make a relationship with an individual or team very rarely with a company and never with recruiters as a group. I set up an organisation in Perth after working in Sydney and I consider the majority of my competitors to be average to below average to plain crud in the way they treat candidates. Perth is a small market and if you dont at least try to get back to people, even if it is an email, then you arent doing the right thing. If I went for a job and someone didnt get back to me I would be fairly annoyed.

Recruiters owe everyone in the process something: candidates, clients etc. The problem is most recruiters dont "own" the job. By this I mean they dont ask the right questions of the client or worse they dont listen when the client tells them what they want. Hence they look for the wrong candidates from the start, don't screen them properly coz they are asking the wrong questions and then put forward unsuitable candidates, who they often fill their heads with the lure of interviews jobs etc. Ulrimately it wastes the clients time and the candidates. But you know what it wastes the recruiters time too but they are probably so bad they cant fathom why their candiates are getting placed!

So my advice for clients and candidates:

Choose an individual recruiter in the same way you would choose a doctor.

Interview them as they interview or meet with you. Find out their experience, how long have they been in recruitment, with that company etc, what clients/type of candidates do they deal with...now what clients/type of candidates do they actually really know - who could they walk out of this room right now and call to send your cv to or fill your requirement with.

You have to feel comfortable with them and know that they are looking out for you. If you call and email etc and they dont get back to you deal with someone else.

Ask friends etc who they have had good experiences with ring that agent and state your mates name. If it is one of their clients even better.

Remember recruiters only have a finite amount of time/candidates/clients if they promise you the world it most likely wont come off. However if they say "look I only have 2 clients I can think of to send you to" or "It may take me a bit of time to find someoen with the right fit and skills" it probably means they are actually screening, interviewing and trying to marry up client and candidate correctly instead of trying the splatter gun approach.

Find people that will manage your expectations. Some clients take longer then others to interview etc so ask them how long, how many other people are they interviewing etc. The more you know the less doubt there is and the more you can test their sincerity in the process to find you a job or the right candiate.

If they forward your CV down without your permission dont ever use them again and tell your mates not too.

Conversely candidates have to understand that they are not the only ones recruiters deal with. As horrible as it is to think when I go for a job there are a multitude of other candidates vying for the same position. Somedays I can personally recieve over 100 applications myself. So on top of running the business, speaking to clients, client meetings, candidate interviews, tender reading/writing, admin and even having lunch I have to get back to 100 candidate the majority of which arent suitable some by so far it is laughable (cue the Bulagarian tractor driver who applied for a 3 month .Net contract - I kid you not).

So like recruiters should listen candidates and clients need to as well.

Candidates: Read the job ad entirely. Only apply to jobs that you actually have similar skills to coz otherwise you will become another unsuitable candidate the moment your CV is opened. Make your CV clear, legible and easy to undersatand. Prepare for interviews with clients by at a minimum investigating their website to see what that company does. What you do yourself can and will make the difference.

Clients: Create a specific job spec. If the recruiter wont meet with you to take down the job spec for a perm role or the first contract role with you then ditch them. Explain the culture and what is really important in the spec. If the first couple of CVs are only slightly off the mark then direct them in the right way. They are learning about you and your company and that does not happen immediately. If they are still off track or the first lot of CV's are totally out (i.e. they give you a VB dvlpr for an XP roll out) don't waste your time.

In conclusion many recruiters can do their job better although some are beyond help. Find and make a relationship with one or a few individuals that suit you and your needs. You might get a pleasant surprise.

[AnyName]

Even more so in Ireland than the UK - It's totally unregulated here and there's even been court cases when people have had their CV's sent to their existing employers !! To set up as a recruiter in Ireland you need 500 Euro and a Certificate from the Police to state that you have not been convicted of murdering or manslaughtering anyone. As a result you can imagine the kind of parasites that set up !

If it's any consolation they suck in the US as well. I've been sent on interviews for jobs that I had no experience in and had people sent to me that didn't have the experience the agency promised. At one company I worked with confidential data and an agency sent me two felons. We never even got to the background check, I asked if they had a criminal record and they both said yes. In eighteen years in the computer industry I've seen three competent recruiters.

[Loathing]

My experience with recruiters recently has not been a good one on a general level, although I did run into three that were reasonable. My difficulty is that I have spent the last 4 years working in a tax specialty. Problem number 1 was that recruiters did not understand the role, and so I was declared "unsuitable". That is after talking directly with the recruiter and pointing out precisely where my experience fitted the described position. It seemed that a number of firms simply felt that if they did not understand my experience, the application would go no further. Some would talk further, and it became very clear they still did not understand what was involved in the previous role. If you don't understand the old role, how can you assess suitability for the applied role? Very frustrating.

My tips for anyone setting up a recruitment agency are very simple:

1) Automated response for emailed applications. I didn't even mind the ones that said if you hear nothing in 4 weeks, your application has gone no further.

2) Get an email address for every applicant and use it. This relates to point 3.

3) When you say you will be in touch, get in touch. If the employer is delaying, or not meeting their timelines to talk with you, a thirty second email will keep the candidates at bay.

4) Don't offer false hope. The number of recruiters I have met who said "You are a good candidate, we want to keep you for future roles" is ridiculous. You don't know where the next placement is coming from, really. Be straight forward - "you missed this role, but we liked how you presented. Keep an eye on our webpage for future placements" would be much better.

While the raw numbers of initial applicants is daunting, the fact is for a single placement you are talking usually less than 10 people per role going before the employer. A bcc email isn't that hard to setup and send if the employer has not made a decision. You will be contacting the final applicants when the decision is made anyway (or you should).

The recruiters I rated as good had common traits:

a) They met the deadlines they set for communication.
b) They were honest in their assessment of my suitability as an applicant.

[Hit And Rum]

Too true Loathing.

It isnt that hard it is just about caring for the product and the end buyer.

I try to run my office like an excellent, high class restaraunt.

The candidate (and dont take offence guys!!) is the food. The client is the person coming into the restaraunt and the agency is the restaraunt staff.

For a good experience:

The food must be what people ordered which should be clearly stated on the menu. If you bring out the wrong food the diner will be annoyed and they may tolerate it once if you are lucky but that is it. The food must be presented well, be cooked well and not be off. Thus if you leave your candidates with no feedback, no communication and no preparation like fresh food it will come out below par and no one wants that. It is a waste of great food and a waste of time for everyone involved.

The service must be impeccable. Clients want a great meal and great service. Recruiters should be there to facilitate and manage the process. A joy to work with. But recruiters musty remember they arent the main show however and if you are crap your clients are not going to come back.

So keep your food well prepared, your service levels high and your customers filled up and happy with a great experience and candidates, clients will always return to you just like a great restaraunt.

[Pirate]

Hey if there are any jobs going. I need one!

Any tech support role paying $45K+ please :)

I've only dealt with one recruiter. He's a bit of a laugh and actually contacts me about jobs. He even rang me this morning. But so far no jobs have been what I want. Shitty thing too is that everyone that I speak to thinks I currently have the best job in the world and thinks its a bit suss I want to leave it. Sucks so much.

[SamBo]

Shitty thing too is that everyone that I speak to thinks I currently have the best job in the world and thinks its a bit suss I want to leave it. Sucks so much.
Perhaps, you're just not sucking enough? ;)

[Glompbot]

I've been away from dealing with agents for almost 2 years now.

The ones that have given me interviews for, have been great...
I even had one lady offer to lend me a black suit jacket because she wanted to put me forward for a legal receptionist role, and thought I would be perfect (even though my admin skills were based around accounting rather than legal or medical).
I had one tell me straight out in the interview that now that she had met me, she knew I wasn't what the company was looking for, but sent me STRAIGHT away to an interview with a client of another company.

I guess I've only had good experiences....

[TheMightyPhill]

I think it comes down to what you can offer too. I have only ever had shit experiences with recruiters and in hindsight, if I think about it my skill set I didn't, at the time, constitute much of a bonus to these guys. Having said that, I concur when you do get put forward for a job, interview etc you really need to know what is going on, that is what pissed me off most. I understand I am not an executive placement where you are going to get 5% of a £50,000 salary but for fucks sake if you tell me I am suited and something is happening, just call / email me. On top of all that, heaps of the ones I dealt with still have me on there email list and I get a once quarterly email saying 'hi are you still looking?'

How about fuck off?

To be fair I didn't hassle them and call them 3 times a day, but I think that they are providing a service and they shouldn't need to be hassled, seriously. (Granted having an attitude like that does me no favours) You're a fucking professional, so am I let us work like it. I don't want to be the psychotic bitch you picked up Friday calling you three times saying, 'you said you would call!!'
Anyway, I have always got my own jobs and my current one, whilst not being my purpose in life is pretty frickin' good and hopefully the next time I need them I will be a little more use and things will work smoother.