Nice of these Europeans to say the march of democracy is ok with them

[Nodbugger]

PARIS (AP) - France, Russia, Germany and Spain called Friday for Syria to withdraw its troops and intelligence services from Lebanon in accordance with a U.N. resolution.

This way, you see, the Euroweenies can say that they had a hand in bringing freedom to Lebanon. The fact of the matter is that Syria is getting out of Lebanon in direct consquence of President Bush's policies ( bringing democracy to the mideast). Now that its safe to do so (now that the Syrian's are bugging out and there's no reason for Syria to bribe French, Russian, German and Spanish politicians to keep silent about Syria's occupation of Lebanon), the Eurotrash elites are getting on their high horse and praising the dawn.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB8NXKSG6E.html

[Hairyman]

Lebannon has an invigorated opposition as a consequence of the assassination of a relatively popular prime minister, although the new prime minister is still making efforts to have good relations with Syria. Among the Lebanese opposition is Walid Jumblatt, the leader of the Christian Druze militia, a group who have had a fairly chequered past.

The Palestinians are joining the political process largely as a consequence of the death of Yassir Arafat, who along with his fellow war criminal Ariel Sharon have had a great interest in maintaining a war. Note also that Hamas is now part of the political process, another unsavoury bunch.

Is it a dawn? I would hope so, but there is a long way to go.

Is it purely a result of American foreign policy? The continued existence of Israel probably is, as regards the rest, I think being reductionist is unwise.

Has current US foreign policy been the most prudent way forward? I think not. Part of the success is the result of pragmatism on the part of the rest of the world. The invasion of Iraq was unnecessary. The lack of forward planning and resource provision, a spectacular blunder. Having produced such an upheaval then the consequences for all of failure became too great to allow.

I support the completion of the current Iraq mission exclusively on this basis. It remains, however, something that should not have occurred.

On the subject of the support of dictatorial regimes, I note that the US remains supportive of Pervez Musharaff who removed the elected Bhutto government from Pakistan by military coup.

The then candidate Bush was very critical of this occurrence.

The Pakistani government has since soundly thrashed its top nuclear scientist with a feather for selling nuclear arms secrets to anyone with the cash. There was very little public (although I am sure private) dissent from the Western powers.

I think that the moral standard for the actions of nations will remain lower than that I would hope that we as individuals would maintain. I have discussed this here (http://forums.zgeek.com/showthread.php?t=31494).

I am glad to say that the link to the article that I referred to in that thread still works. Those who have trouble can PM me for a detailed precis.

My preference is that foreign policy instead of being based on utility would take a more deontological position. In this case the reference being human rights outcomes. I cannot see this occurring any time soon.

Noddy, I directly challenge you to read the article I referred to in the other thread.

[The Cunt]

Don't go into politics Noddy or consider a career path as a diplomat.

Granted there's plenty of fuckwits doing it, but you'll take arrogancy to new heights and ignorance to never before seen lows.

[Nodbugger]

Lebannon has an invigorated opposition as a consequence of the assassination of a relatively popular prime minister, although the new prime minister is still making efforts to have good relations with Syria. Among the Lebanese opposition is Walid Jumblatt, the leader of the Christian Druze militia, a group who have had a fairly chequered past.

The Palestinians are joining the political process largely as a consequence of the death of Yassir Arafat, who along with his fellow war criminal Ariel Sharon have had a great interest in maintaining a war. Note also that Hamas is now part of the political process, another unsavoury bunch.

Is it a dawn? I would hope so, but there is a long way to go.

Is it purely a result of American foreign policy? The continued existence of Israel probably is, as regards the rest, I think being reductionist is unwise.

Has current US foreign policy been the most prudent way forward? I think not. Part of the success is the result of pragmatism on the part of the rest of the world. The invasion of Iraq was unnecessary. The lack of forward planning and resource provision, a spectacular blunder. Having produced such an upheaval then the consequences for all of failure became too great to allow.

I support the completion of the current Iraq mission exclusively on this basis. It remains, however, something that should not have occurred.

On the subject of the support of dictatorial regimes, I note that the US remains supportive of Pervez Musharaff who removed the elected Bhutto government from Pakistan by military coup.

The then candidate Bush was very critical of this occurrence.

The Pakistani government has since soundly thrashed its top nuclear scientist with a feather for selling nuclear arms secrets to anyone with the cash. There was very little public (although I am sure private) dissent from the Western powers.

I think that the moral standard for the actions of nations will remain lower than that I would hope that we as individuals would maintain. I have discussed this here (http://forums.zgeek.com/showthread.php?t=31494).

I am glad to say that the link to the article that I referred to in that thread still works. Those who have trouble can PM me for a detailed precis.

My preference is that foreign policy instead of being based on utility would take a more deontological position. In this case the reference being human rights outcomes. I cannot see this occurring any time soon.

Noddy, I directly challenge you to read the article I referred to in the other thread.

I strongly disagree with your post.

[berserk]

[/i]reference to edited post removed[/i]

[Nodbugger]

What he said is completely irrelevant to EVERYTHING.

[jambo]

What he said is completely irrelevant to EVERYTHING.

It's obviously not irrelevant to pissing you off.

[Bostonmess]

Everything you say is complete bullshit, your post above means shit and is wrong.

Well since you've refuted him so comprehensively.

Happy anniversay.

Qatar Blames Egyptian for Theater Blast

DOHA, Qatar (AP) - Qatar on Sunday blamed an Egyptian for a suicide car bomb attack on a Doha theater that killed one Briton, days after an al-Qaida leader purportedly called for attacks on Western interests in the Gulf region as Iraq marks the second anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion.

After Saturday's blast, the largely European audience reportedly streamed out of the hall in the midst of the performance, a rendition of Shakespeare's ``Twelfth Night.''

The ministry identified the bomber as Omar Ahmed Abdullah Ali, an Egyptian, who also owned the car that exploded outside the Doha Players Theater during a Saturday night performance, killing one person and injuring 12 others.

The bombing occurred on the second anniversary of the U.S.-led invasion in Iraq, although it was unclear if the two events were linked. Saleh al-Aoofi, who purportedly heads al-Qaida in the Gulf region, urged militants this week to attack Westerners in Qatar and several other countries.

Nobody claimed responsibility for the attack on the theater, which is popular with Westerners and close to the Doha English Speaking School in the northern suburb of Farek Kelab.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4879218,00.html

[Nodbugger]

i believe this is a key point often overlooked. pointing fingers and insisting on blaming someone, anyone, everyone does nothing to resolve what is a nigh-intractable position. in fact, it dissolves the few international relationships required to maintain some semblance of stablity in order to establish a means for withdrawal.

one point i have not seen discussed much is the viablity of a western-style democracy in such a cultural setting. larry diamond and a few other theorists have brought this point up but it tends to get lost in the grandstanding. having seen firsthand how difficult it is for a third-wave democracy to emerge, i can not imagine any realistic degree of success in the setting required here.

You are wrong for the simple fact that your way has NEVER WORKED. It hasn't. Our way has WORKED EVERY SINGLE TIME.

So shut the hell up, you are wrong.

[Bostonmess]

Please explain the logic behind your post Noddy. What points are you disagreeing with and why? Don't just say all of them. If it's all of them, list them and point out your opinion of why he's wrong.

[Bostonmess]

Heh heh heh. Nahh it's not as funny. I think I must have some masochistic streak in me too? :D

[Nodbugger]

Please explain the logic behind your post Noddy. What points are you disagreeing with and why? Don't just say all of them. If it's all of them, list them and point out your opinion of why he's wrong.

I don't believe he has made any points in his post. If you don't think that's a good enough reason to ignore it, then I'm unsure as to whether you're able to form an objective opinion.

[Bostonmess]

Don't click this unless you've a stomach for crap (http://forum.zgeek.com/showpost.php?p=529774&postcount=14)

Such reasoning power Noddy, how can you fail to convince people with your argument?

Actually Noddy, I wasn't saying whether I agreed or disagreed, all I was simply saying was maybe you could put a bit more effort into why you disagree, maybe make some counterpoints to his points. Otherwise, why bother? Any cabbage can just come out with "Shut up. You are wrong." People would respect you a lot more if you actually proved it with reasoning.

As has been explained to you numerous times before.

[Nodbugger]

Such reasoning power Noddy, how can you fail to convince people with your argument?

Actually Noddy, I wasn't saying whether I agreed or disagreed, all I was simply saying was maybe you could put a bit more effort into why you disagree, maybe make some counterpoints to his points. Otherwise, why bother? Any cabbage can just come out with "Shut up. You are wrong." People would respect you a lot more if you actually proved it with reasoning.

As has been explained to you numerous times before.


And I have explained to you numerous times that you never have a point.

[johny_roberts]

And I have explained to you numerous times that you never have a point.

*irrelevant*

[Bostonmess]

And I have explained to you numerous times that you never have a point.

noyant

[Urban3300]

I do not wish to participate in this shit flinging contest anymore than this: I have to ask you Nodbugger, why do you post these threads when you obviously do not wish to have a proper discussion with anyone? When someone makes a post you tell him to shut up, his post is complete bullshit, he is wrong and he should fuck off or all of the above. It is also amusing me that you are calling Kleph brainwashed when you yourself always deny everything anyone says and don't even bother to post a reason to why you disagree. Do you enjoy getting flamed and do you enjoy flaming them? So why do you post?

And the flaming gets me to this. This is for everyone else. Why do you keep "feeding the troll." That will only lead to a useless shit flinging contest. And that contest never has an end, it can go on forever. It is not even amusing because it is completely vain.

'Twas blow for blow, disputing inch by inch, For one would not retreat, nor t'other flinch.

[Nodbugger]

I do not wish to participate in this shit flinging contest anymore than this: I have to ask you Nodbugger, why do you post these threads when you obviously do not wish to have a proper discussion with anyone? When someone makes a post you tell him to shut up, his post is complete bullshit, he is wrong and he should fuck off or all of the above. It is also amusing me that you are calling Kleph brainwashed when you yourself always deny everything anyone says and don't even bother to post a reason to why you disagree. Do you enjoy getting flamed and do you enjoy flaming them? So why do you post?

And the flaming gets me to this. This is for everyone else. Why do you keep "feeding the troll." That will only lead to a useless shit flinging contest. And that contest never has an end, it can go on forever. It is not even amusing because it is completely vain.

'Twas blow for blow, disputing inch by inch, For one would not retreat, nor t'other flinch.


I'm continuing the discussion because I'm trying to make you see what I do - his post did not have a point. Furthermore, I believe that the majority of his posts lack any substance.

[Up_All_Night]

he did have a point.

you're was just a stupid bashing thing.
I think if you look at any repubutable source, they will disagree with the results there being directly because of the americans. You see, most of the people there hate america. You fail to notice to huge ani american demonstrations there?

you are saying they are just claiming they had a hand in bringing freedom to Lebanon. Well america is claiming credit that isnt theirs. Find a source that proves its because of americas actions? a Source that is biased towards the republicans who are desperate for some good news to call their own.

[Nodbugger]

he did have a point.

you're was just a stupid bashing thing.
I think if you look at any repubutable source, they will disagree with the results there being directly because of the americans. You see, most of the people there hate america. You fail to notice to huge ani american demonstrations there?

you are saying they are just claiming they had a hand in bringing freedom to Lebanon. Well america is claiming credit that isnt theirs. Find a source that proves its because of americas actions? a Source that is biased towards the republicans who are desperate for some good news to call their own.

I continue to maintain that his post was without a definite point.
Europe had nothing to do with it. The war in Iraq had everything to do with it.

Do you seriously think that it didn't?

We are right next door. We wouldn't mind Syria crumpling. Don't you think the people of Lebanon saw this as an opportunity? Would you seriously think Syria is going to fuck with Lebanon when the American military is knocking on their door? It just won't happen. America invading Iraq and setting up a democracy is the biggest reason the people of Lebanon decided to act. If we didn't do what we did they NEVER would have done what they did.

[Bostonmess]

So the Qatar bomb is your fault then?

[Up_All_Night]

I was watching CNN earlier they were talking to John Simpson one of the most respected journalists in the world, about Iraq and Lebannon and Israel and stuff. And Yeah they were saying how no one with any knowledge of the situations attribute the movements in Israel and Lebanon with the war in Iraq and george bush. that coming from and expert on the middle east and these conflicts. palistian stuff, happening because Arafat died, Lebanon from on going movements and the bomb and stuff.

[Zan]

Thread cleaned up a little.

Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. Please don't encourage trolling.

[SOC]

I do not wish to participate in this shit flinging contest anymore than this: I have to ask you Nodbugger, why do you post these threads when you obviously do not wish to have a proper discussion with anyone? When someone makes a post you tell him to shut up, his post is complete bullshit, he is wrong and he should fuck off or all of the above. It is also amusing me that you are calling Kleph brainwashed when you yourself always deny everything anyone says and don't even bother to post a reason to why you disagree. Do you enjoy getting flamed and do you enjoy flaming them? So why do you post?

And the flaming gets me to this. This is for everyone else. Why do you keep "feeding the troll." That will only lead to a useless shit flinging contest. And that contest never has an end, it can go on forever. It is not even amusing because it is completely vain.

'Twas blow for blow, disputing inch by inch, For one would not retreat, nor t'other flinch.

Best. Post. Ever.

[and3w]

I was in Lebanon during the Israeli invasion and watched the civil war from across the border. Much as I hat to say much good about Syria I feel they were the only thing holding the country together. I prophesise descent into warlord ridden factionalism and much death.
As Kleph said (I think:-) when will the so-called 'western democracies' learn that their method of governance does not work for all cultures, especially ones where tribes, clans or religions are more important than anything else.
It's already tits up in Afghanistan (Kabul & environs ruled by govt, the rest ruled by the same old warlords), Iraq (going well there, eh), Somalia (Somalia 1, USA 0). I foresee the same for the Lebanon unfortunatly, as it is a beautiful country :-(

[Cassa]

one point i have not seen discussed much is the viablity of a western-style democracy in such a cultural setting.

I could come out and say 'you mean that the U.S ISN'T the centre of the universe????', but it's a tired point. However you raise something important there, and that's that perhaps father doesn't know best after all. I am increasingly worried by the notion that a lot of western-style governments (not just the U.S) have, that everything must be directly legislated and controlled otherwise things will become out of control and evil.

(yes I know it's not worded elegantly but I'm tired and you get my general drift)