Programming: Best way to get in to it.

[thingy]

As most of you know, I'm a network admin. I have been screwed over by my company more than enough times, yet I'm still here. Why? Quite simply due to the fact I've been doing desktop support/network administration long enough that I am rather experienced, and any jobs with my level of experience also require the ability to administer mail servers and firewalls - which happen to be two things I am locked out of by the GNOC.

I have not been able to get lower down jobs because they look at my experience and think "He's going to get bored & leave in 6-12 months" which they certainly don't want. I'm kinda stuck in a rut. The obvious answer would be to grab some books and study those things I'm missing, but my frustration with my company and this job has left me unable to study such things at night. It's the last thing I can/want to do. I'm basically a broken man struggling to hold on. I've been in denial for way too long about this, a career change is needed. I'll keep doing what I'm doing now until I'm ready, but admitting there's a problem is the first step in finding a solution. So lets do this!

I'm looking at programming. I did a bit in TAFE back in 97/98. It's something different enough from what I do now that I'll be able to do it at night when I get home. It's been so long I'll basically be starting as a n00b, so here come the n00b questions for all the experienced programmers out there.

Firstly, what languages do people recommend I go with? I don't just want something easy, I want something practical as this is an attempted career change.

Secondly, what resources (books/compilers/other such stuff) do people recommend I get for these suggested languages?

At the moment I'm mostly thinking C# and .Net. I know those are the flavour of the month for the last few years, and I know a few people who do them.

[CMYK]

Yep. Stick with the .NET angle. C# or whatever. Stay on the cutting edge. Were I work (large fund manager) we are now beginning to do all our new dev in C#. We have a Framework team to build all the low-level components and a programming team to make it all come together. We still have legacy VB and Powerbuilder apps, and quite a bit of Access/Excel/VBA things, but the sexy and fun part of the development team is the C# stuff. I'm a VBA/Excel guy but have luckily made the escape route and joined the Investments business recently. I feared for my ability to reskill in C#.

[Manshoon]

I too would like to learn a bit of coding......I did a little when I was back in Uni in 96-97 but have done nothing since (and Smalltalk was really shit IMHO). I taught myself some of the basics of C but have since forgotten all about them.

Maybe this will restart my desire to get back into IT fully instead of being a low paid grunt in a warehouse.

[btwong]

i would suggest .NET.

I, myself am a programmer, and we are starting to do a major shift over to .NET cause of its power and ease of incorporating them with our existing applications.

[Enos]

You're all sick!

.NET is the tool of Satan!

Come to the light of Java my brothers :banana:

[dwarfthrower]

At the moment I'm mostly thinking C# and .Net. I know those are the flavour of the month for the last few years, and I know a few people who do them.

Firstly, welcome to the dark side ;)

Both C# and .Net are very good choices. Microsoft is where the money is - and with your admin experience, using .Net or C# to write network and administration type programs for windows environments is an absolute monty.

Java is a great language to learn, but the current glut of mid-level Java programmers out there means that it's difficult to get good Java jobs unless you're something of a guru. I know how you feel about Lotus Notes, so I won't even suggest trying your hand at Domino programming. But programming is more a mindset over anything else. Once you get your head around the concepts learning a new language is more a matter of syntax than anything else.

As far as resources go, it all depends on how you like to learn - some people just like to bury themselves in the help doco, others prefer a more structured, textbook approach. The main thing is to have access to people who can help you out if you get stuck. Having friends that already do C# and .NET makes them prime targets, but internet forums are also good - use the programming know-how in this forum, also I find http://www.tek-tips.com to be pretty damn useful as well.

[BtrFly]

I agree with the above - the market is certainly swaying towards the .NET suite of tools. However having the legacy programming languages - such as VB/ASP - is always going to have you in good stead- simply because .NET is relatively new, and the systems that are out there require knowledge of the previous systems.

That said - I wish you good luck in it thingy. If you need any help or other tips - that arent technically minded that is - drop me a line.

[thingy]

One of my mates is actually a qualified trainer, I've heard him talking about them which is the main reason for me leaning towards those particular languages. The question on which languages was mostly to see if anyone had reason to steer me away from them, but I'm getting mostly support for the choices so that means it's even more confirmed.

I'll be starting from scratch, so structured learning such as from a book is what I need at this stage. Scouring help pages just gets confusing at this level as the teminology used is all foreign making it even harder to find what one is after.

So, now that the languages are more confirmed than they were before, what would people suggest as far as books and other such learning resources go? I'm hoping to make a start in this asap.

[thingy]

Dear god this is going to be expensive. Looking through MS's website and their recommended books they are US$26.39 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0735612366/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-2335694-4869523?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance) and US$107.09 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0735619255/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-2335694-4869523?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance) respectively. At Australian bookstores, AU$72.95 (http://www.angusrobertson.com.au/products/detailed.asp?bookid=0735612366&db=us) and AU$325.00 (http://www.angusrobertson.com.au/products/detailed.asp?bookid=0735619255&db=au). I haven't even looked at the cost of MS Visual Studio .NET yet.

Taking the exchange rate and shipping costs in to account, it's STILL going to be a hell of a lot cheaper ordering from overseas. Is there any reason I shouldn't? (ie, would they do the same thing they do with a lot of programs and make it so the U.S. version won't run on an international machine?)

[dwarfthrower]

That's probably the only real barrier to taking on something like C# or ASP.NET as a beginner. It's bloody expensive. While you can download the entire J2EE framework, Eclipse and anything else you want for free to get you into Java programming, all the .NET stuff is proprietary software.

I'm not sure if there is a US edition and International Edition of the .NET framework. However if you have an MSDN subscription you can download a BETA copy of Visual Studio 2005 at the moment. Or if you sign up for a tafe course somewhere and get a student id you'd qualify for the academic pricing - might be a better proposition than forking out $1,300.00 for the professional edition.

[Chocoholic]

Have you looked at getting these texts second hand?

If you buy the books it’s a tax deduction for you. Also mention that you are thinking about doing this to your manager, your department will have a training budget that they have to spend each year, they might be willing to pay for some or all of your study depending on what your company policy is.

[thingy]

The second of those "books" comes with a 60 day trial. If the program is affordable I'll buy it, otherwise I'll download a *cough*trial until I can afford it.

As for those prices, Dymocks is a lot more reasonable (AU$64.95 and AU$269.95 respectively).

I'm not doing a TAFE course. When I was at TAFE back in 97/98 it was meant to be an analyst/programmer course. We were told from the beginning we could choose which path we wanted to go down. In the end they gave us no options, forced us all down the path that I least wanted to do. Those who chose the Applications Programming course at TAFE were the most pissed off because they were forced in to the same subjects. That's why I dropped it & started looking for work instead of continueing study.

[thingy]

Have you looked at getting these texts second hand?
Call me a snob, but I have a preference for brand new. Plus one of them is a kit, I don't want to discover the CD's/DVD's are scratched and unusable.

your department will have a training budget that they have to spend each year
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! In my four years here only once has anyone ever received training, both myself & my manager at the time did Citrix courses. Other than that, the idea of "training" results in the above response. I doubt the company would be interested in helping me with this as they have no use what so ever for a programmer.

[locust]

I think the VS Express Edition betas (http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/) are free. Doesn't say anything about needing an MSDN membership.

They're bleeding edge versions though; you may want to keep in mind that any prospective employers may still be working with C# 1.0 on VS.NET 2002.

As for choice of language.. there are a lot of places out there who've decided to move to C#, and the number of proficient C# programmers hasn't quite caught up. No idea how long that situation's going to last, though.

[dwarfthrower]

As for choice of language.. there are a lot of places out there who've decided to move to C#, and the number of proficient C# programmers hasn't quite caught up. No idea how long that situation's going to last, though.

Indeed, demand for particular languages is always cyclic in nature. The obscene amount J2EE programmers were demanding a few years ago is now barely visible over the massive numbers of people scrabbling for java programming gigs. As such, it's always more important to learn how to program rather than how to program in XYZ. Once you understand what it is that you're doing rather than simply how to do it, your skills will be pretty easily transferred from language to language.

Programming is a bit like cooking. The best cooks are the ones who understand what they're doing - what techniques work with which ingredients etc. Then come those who can fairly competently take a recipe and modify it to suit their needs. Lastly come those who burn water without detailed step-by-step instructions. Understanding programming fundamentals like loops, arrays, functions and classes is probably more important than learning the intricate details of a particular language's syntax. So when looking for a reference, try and pick one that teaches programming basics as well as the language.

[s3raph]

That's probably the only real barrier to taking on something like C# or ASP.NET as a beginner. It's bloody expensive. While you can download the entire J2EE framework, Eclipse and anything else you want for free to get you into Java programming, all the .NET stuff is proprietary software.

I'm not sure if there is a US edition and International Edition of the .NET framework. However if you have an MSDN subscription you can download a BETA copy of Visual Studio 2005 at the moment. Or if you sign up for a tafe course somewhere and get a student id you'd qualify for the academic pricing - might be a better proposition than forking out $1,300.00 for the professional edition.
At QUT we get them all for free. I've got my full edition that I was able to download for free from the MSDN academic alliance website that we all have memberships at. Its awesome :D

[t101]

If .NET is so pricey, why hasn't someone come up with an open source version called .ORG?

:D

All of my work programming is perl - pretty much the only language we DIDN'T touch on at uni. Sigh.

I would like to move into some more Cish, but lack of time/resources has kept me from doing so.

[locust]

There's mono, but that doesn't have (usable, released) support for Windows.Forms, which many places would probably require. Knowing how to use the tools you'd be using in the workplace (ie the Microsoft IDE/debugger/etc) is also important - sure, it may take no more than a week for a cluey person to become an efficient user of a particular toolchain, but best put that week somewhere before the job interview.

On another note, you should learn to use the third most important tool in a programmer's arsenal (behind your editor and your compiler) - a version control system of some sort.

[gooey]

That's probably the only real barrier to taking on something like C# or ASP.NET as a beginner. It's bloody expensive. While you can download the entire J2EE framework, Eclipse and anything else you want for free to get you into Java programming, all the .NET stuff is proprietary software.

I'm not sure if there is a US edition and International Edition of the .NET framework. However if you have an MSDN subscription you can download a BETA copy of Visual Studio 2005 at the moment. Or if you sign up for a tafe course somewhere and get a student id you'd qualify for the academic pricing - might be a better proposition than forking out $1,300.00 for the professional edition.


it doesnt have to be expensive

you can download the .net framework for free from microsoft.

also you can write C# and ASP.NET in any text editor.

then all you need to do is run the command line compiler to put your application together.

There are also hundreds of .NET sites with scripts and tutorials including microsoft.

[void*]

As an employer of programming types (no, I don't have any jobs going), my suggestion to you is to get skills in something cheap and easy. I'll get flamed, but VB/ASP is a good place to start, cheap to learn and relatively easy to program in. You will be surprised at how much legacy code is out there that needs maintenance, and maintenance programming can be a lucrative place to cut your coding teeth, before moving into the big leagues. It's not unheard of to have vb coders earning 50-60 AUD an hour, just doing maintenance. As a network admin, you can bullshit up some VBScript stuff you did as a thing to put on your resume too. Hard to do that with C# or the the other .net ones.

Database skills are a MUST. Doesn't matter what you can code in, from a business perspective, maniplating large scale SQL database queries is where all the difficulties come in. I'll employ programmers with DB skills and weak language skills, but NEVER the other way around. It's just way to easy to screw a system by not having your database right, either in design or in code.

Do yourself a favour, and enroll in a Tafe/whatever course in business studies as well if you don't want to do programming ones due to personal skills. This makes you a) more valuable to a company and b) eligible for student rates for things like Visual Studio and so on.

[jeffxor]

Well as a programmer I think the most important language I learnt while I was at uni had to be SQL. Almost every job that I have applied for has required some knowledge of SQL. Basically the ability to connect to a data source and display data.

Having been trained in C/C++ at uni I have to agree with dwarfthrower concepts are the hardest to learn but give you most benefit. After struggling with C++ for 2 years, Java, Php, perl, c# and many others come easily, it just a matter of finding the correct syntax.

Personaly I would suggest Java purely on thier documentation base and the windowing tool kits. Thou I have never really had much experince with MS languages other than at Uni where I found the languages very frustrating/limited compared to Java/C++. This was mostly pre .Net.

Even a basic knowledge of SQL is a very useful. There are many jobs simply require someone to design reports that pull out data from a database and they pay quite well.

[HAL]

You'll definately need to use friends who can program on the odd! I done an introductory to programming course at Uni this semester (using Java as our basis of learning). Because of work commitments I consistantly missed lectures and tutorials (no night time classes). I found myself dwindling further and further behind. Some concepts when beginning programming are hard to get a handle on han solo, and having no friends in the course theres some aspects I've never really been able catch up on and am looking like just scraping through the course. I find this some what dissapointing because I actually have an avid interest in programming. I may be coming across lazy, but trust me, I've spent days on end trying to work things out that should only take a couple of hrs and I've still come up empty handed.

[AsterisK]

Currently I think PHP and .Net are the latest and greatest. Not sure what kind of programming your looking at, but I taught myself PHP and have realised its potential not only as a web based language, but also when running command line scripts (can be quite good for automated database tasks).

The key to learning a programming language is to continuously play with it. You will never learn the whole thing, don't even try. RTFM should be your motto. Good thing about PHP is that the whole language is fully (well almost) documented on their website with user feedback, unlike Microsoft's pathetic approach. No matter which language you choose, you should constantly be learning new or better ways of doing things.

Good luck.

[jeffxor]

Knowing someone who has experince coding now matter what language is a great benefit. i can remember my first year at uni being introduced to c++ on unix and trying to understand what the hell the compiler error meant was like. Or trying to get my head around pointers and memory management.

There is nothing more frustrating then looking at code trying to find a simple bug. It is always the moment you ask someone to eyeball your code that you find the problem.

There are a number of good programming forums around that can help in this situation but waiting for a response can be frustrating

[AsterisK]

Even a basic knowledge of SQL is a very useful. There are many jobs simply require someone to design reports that pull out data from a database and they pay quite well.

I will support this comment. SQL is essential these days, due to the fact whole organisations revolve around the data stored in the bastards.

Obviously PHP and ASP both compliment the use of SQL. However, I would suggest the PHP/MySQL combination.

[thingy]

When I was doing SQL at tafe I kicked arse without even trying.

I've been looking at the MS courses/exams, the programming ones I'll concentrate on first (70-315 and 70-316). After that I'll start investigating some MSDBA courses/exams. I was already well aware that SQL stuff was pretty much a requirement as most programming jobs in AU would be for in-house applications that more often than not would be based on DB's and data manipulation.

[void*]

Don't just limit yourself to MSSQL, ORACLE is also handy and PL/SQL is often different to the MS implementation.

You'll want simple front end languages as well either VB or Java.

[beerbaron]

Thingy , you dont happen to work for Volante do ya ?

[BtrFly]

Also thingy - if you want to move almost sideways, you could look at becoming a DBA. Get your skill set up in SQL (which is universal for all db's) and start learning them. There is much money in becoming a DBA, and one who can get them to interface with each other is also a bonus.
There are quite a few out there, but the main ones I have dealt with are Oracle, SQL server, Sybase as well as some of the more mundane and lesser known ones.
Also if you are thinking about going into web development (which is effectively what ASP/.Net is), you will need to know n-Tier technologies (such as Active X components, MTS/COM, COM+) as well which are also legacy systems to the components contained within .Net.

[jeffxor]

A little of topic

Hey BtrFly as an IT recruiter I have a question.

I am currently doing the Linux Professional Institues Certification (self taught) I was wondering how the industry rates this cert and if there is any demand from employers for it? How does it compare with the M$ admin courses?

[brentwahn]

How funny - I'm in a really similar situation (except that I really like my job). I'm a 2IC sysadmin at a public neuroscience company and I need to further my skills somewhat. One of my best friends is a .NET developer who makes shitloads of money as a contractor (left Unilever and now at a large merchant bank). He says .NET is where it's at for the cash. Dwarfthrower has some excellent advice. Listen to him.

At the same time, the programmers that I work VERY closely with, work in Python. They're all Linux geeks, but they know their shit. I've decided to start learning Python for now. Essentially what I'm saying is that the 'purist' programmers I know (mainly academically geared) use C++ and Python, but the one's making the money use .NET.

I want to learn with Python, because apparently it's great yo learn with, and then pick up .NET later. Like Dwarf said, the syntax is of less consequence as you go on.

That said, I did programming at school and then uni for a couple of years, and I can't remember shit.

The website my favourite programmer friends has referred me to is CSpy (http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/)

[thingy]

Also thingy - if you want to move almost sideways, you could look at becoming a DBA. Get your skill set up in SQL (which is universal for all db's) and start learning them. There is much money in becoming a DBA, and one who can get them to interface with each other is also a bonus.
There are quite a few out there, but the main ones I have dealt with are Oracle, SQL server, Sybase as well as some of the more mundane and lesser known ones.
Also if you are thinking about going into web development (which is effectively what ASP/.Net is), you will need to know n-Tier technologies (such as Active X components, MTS/COM, COM+) as well which are also legacy systems to the components contained within .Net.
I'm a little hesitant with this because at a glance the courses appear to be SQL to start off with, then they're more geared towards the watered down front-end designing programs. It was these programs we were pushed towards at TAFE and I hated with a vengeance. I can't remember exactly which programs these were, but I still shy away from getting in to that area again.

That said, I did programming at school and then uni for a couple of years, and I can't remember shit.
I'm sure you're still familiar with all the concepts, if someone was to plonk some code in front of you most of it would make sense. That's the boat I'm in right now. Did some C at TAFE, couldn't code a program to save my life these days, but looking at basic code it does all make sense to me. I've decided I want to rebuild this lost knowledge and take it further.

Going to talk to Still_Life this evening, see what he can offer me (he does C# and .NET, he's a certified trainer in both too).

Don't just limit yourself to MSSQL, ORACLE is also handy and PL/SQL is often different to the MS implementation.
I'm not going to. Once again back to tafe memories, we mostly used informix there which I found piss easy. Another class (same course) was using MSQL and I saw the differences. I found standard SQL (informix was better at keeping to the standard) a lot easier than MS's variety. Don't get me started on MS Access's bastardisation of SQL. Going from Access to Informix I went from bottom of the class to top ... literally overnight.

Thingy , you dont happen to work for Volante do ya ?
Worse. An advertising agency.

Currently I think PHP and .Net are the latest and greatest. Not sure what kind of programming your looking at, but I taught myself PHP and have realised its potential not only as a web based language, but also when running command line scripts (can be quite good for automated database tasks).
I'm wanting this as a career change, and I can't see PHP as being wanted much except for websites and maybe by linux gurus. It's getting a bit too specialised for my likings. I want something with more open options and job opportunities.

As Dwarfy said, you learn one and then it's simple syntax, you can pretty much do them all. I don't have the time, I want out of my job, so I'm taking a more direct path.

[brentwahn]

Going to talk to Still_Life this evening, see what he can offer me (he does C# and .NET, he's a certified trainer in both too).

Would it be inappropriate for me to speak with him regarding doing what you're doing?

[BtrFly]

Once you learn the syntax, even if you cant write it, you can still look at a piece of code and understand what it does. I can do that (trained code monkey over here). It is finding what language you want to work with, what area of development you want to work in (ie web, crm, application, telecomms, DBA), and that will lead you to the programming languages you will be working with.

The banking industry leans more towards the .NET suite, but i know quite a few of the larger banks do deal in Java. The telecommunications industry primarily is C/C++, and the more sturdy languages along those lines. PHP/ASP are for more web development houses. You will get more money, the more specialised you are (typically) as your skill set is rarer (if you pick the right one). However there is much to be said to being multi skilled.

[void*]

The industry is notoriously fickle on front end languages. Java was the bomb now .NET

Databases, and the skills required, have remained largely static, due mostly to the fact that no-one seems to be able to come up with a better model than the relational one (except that abortive XML based stuff a few years back). The other factor is the large installed base of monsters like Oracle and MSSQL.

Most big commercial shops are driven by their RDBMS. Most big commercial shops also have a large legacy code base they are either unwilling, or unable, to port to something new. I've done work for a client still running mainframe JCL code and only now forced to change due to ruinous maintenance. They are still paying coders to maintain it at ruinous rates.

My recommendation to you is to find a language with a large installed base (either Java / VB), and go contracting in the meat grinder of maintaining someone else's code. It will allow you to:

a) maintain a reasonable income whilst learning
b) gain real-world (as opposed to book learnt) skills
c) get some DB exposure

Then get busy learning your language de jour (C# or whatever) and increasing your earning potential.

[druid]

Indeed, demand for particular languages is always cyclic in nature. The obscene amount J2EE programmers were demanding a few years ago is now barely visible over the massive numbers of people scrabbling for java programming gigs. As such, it's always more important to learn how to program rather than how to program in XYZ. Once you understand what it is that you're doing rather than simply how to do it, your skills will be pretty easily transferred from language to language.

Programming is a bit like cooking. The best cooks are the ones who understand what they're doing - what techniques work with which ingredients etc. Then come those who can fairly competently take a recipe and modify it to suit their needs. Lastly come those who burn water without detailed step-by-step instructions. Understanding programming fundamentals like loops, arrays, functions and classes is probably more important than learning the intricate details of a particular language's syntax. So when looking for a reference, try and pick one that teaches programming basics as well as the language.

These are the true words of wisdom in this thread. On that note, knowing how to design software is essential. After the design is done you could just hire some boat refugees to knock the code together.

When you've learned a language start looking into design patterns* for a start. Also remember that knowing an object-oriented language doesn't mean you know object-oriented design.


* AOL Keyword : "design patterns" (applies to architecture too so don't get confused ;)

[Directed]

* AOL Keyword : "design patterns" (applies to architecture too so don't get confused ;)

If someone talks about AOL keywords, can they REALLY be trusted?

[wolfpac181]

Just saw this on Slashdot.
seems microsoft won't be supporting .net framework down the road.

linky (http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/27/168225&from=rss)

[dwarfthrower]

It's a pretty big stretch to go from "Longhorn itself may not be built on the .NET framework" to "MS won't be supporting .NET".

At any rate, the amount of legacy code already written in .NET will keep a fair number of developers busy well into the future.

[druid]

That's a huge stretch. Incidentally I just spent 3 days in training by the MS regional director here and I can say that the only thing that will not be supported by .NET 2.0 is Windows 2000 which is sort of natural.

.NET itself is only going forward - the managed code era is coming. Study the Visual Studio 2005 and/or .NET Framework 2.0 Betas for further awe. :cool:

[Directed]

If .net 2.0 has an improved managed code feature, could it be called a "Safety.net"?

He He I so funny.

[druid]

Managed code already exists. 2.0 just makes a lot of things easier. But yes, you could say that some aspects of security and even usability will improve.

(yes you're joking but I'm trying to run a tight ship here)

[Truephoenix]

Learning programming is good, but you'd still be stuck doing a shitty IT job.
Instead of helping people to use computers they are not qualified to use in the first place it would just be writing applications to make using computers simpler for people who aren't qualified to use them in the first place.

(In my personal experience the IT industry is basically a group of people who know where they are at with computers with good people skills helping a bunch of people who not only don't have a clue about computers but don't want to know about computers and just want them to "work", also it's an industry where you need a qualification to tell them that you know how to turn one on.)

Maybe i should start a rant?

[dwarfthrower]

Learning programming is good, but you'd still be stuck doing a shitty IT job.
Are you implying that all IT jobs are 'shitty' or just programming jobs?

Instead of helping people to use computers they are not qualified to use in the first place it would just be writing applications to make using computers simpler for people who aren't qualified to use them in the first place.
What "qualifications" does one need to operate a computer these days?

(In my personal experience the IT industry is basically a group of people who know where they are at with computers with good people skills helping a bunch of people who not only don't have a clue about computers but don't want to know about computers and just want them to "work",
OK, so the people who write network admin tools and compilers are doing what?

also it's an industry where you need a qualification to tell them that you know how to turn one on.)
Not having any qualifications hasn't stopped me (or plenty of others) from forging a career in IT. In fact it's one of the few industries where demonstrated experience is valued far more highly than a certificate.

Maybe i should start a rant?
Maybe you should clarify your position in a new thread in the careers section.

[royale]

Maybe you should clarify your position in a new thread in the careers section.

Or maybe he should just cease making ridiculous sweeping statements based on TAFE level PC technical support and trying to pass them off as some sort of insight into the Information Technology industry. :rolleyes:

[dwarfthrower]

Or maybe he should just cease making ridiculous sweeping statements based on TAFE level PC technical support and trying to pass them off as some sort of insight into the Information Technology industry. :rolleyes:
Well... When you put it that way I suppose... :cool:

[sagit]

thingy: you might wanna grab a copy of this months Atomic magazine..or maybe just the CD. it seems to have MS's Visual Studio Express Edition on it (or taking up the whole thing, with .net, sql server and some msdn things on there).

[Truephoenix]

Or maybe he should just cease making ridiculous sweeping statements based on TAFE level PC technical support and trying to pass them off as some sort of insight into the Information Technology industry. :rolleyes:

Maybe i've found that it's more about people skills than technical knowledge, and as such went into engineering instead. To me a job where i have to use excessive amounts of people skills is rather boring. I'd rather be designing logic circuits and mucking with flip-flops than answering phone calls and such.

I'm sure many people disagree and like fixing things that people have stuffed up but won't admit it just claiming that it "doesn't work" and then you have to spend an hour trying to fix up the problem because they won't tell you how they broke it, and talking a client through the process of saving a word document onto a floppy disk. But that's not me.

I can make as many ridiculous sweeping statements and broad generalisations as i like, that's what the internet is for. :cool:
I'm sure the statements i've made aren't reflective of the entire IT industry, i'm just relating personal experience.

Anyway the stuff i said earlier is IMHO, there's a good chance i'm totally wrong about everything, but who really cares?. :cool:

[Kez]

I've been asking still_life and Movis on IRC some questions to do with programming, and they've both said to me:

"Learn to program... not a language"... I get that saying now...

TAFE do a good Software Design and Development course that teaches you everything pretty much... they let you pick the language you want to program aswell, so yeah, I know this thread is old, but it's my 2c.

[rascuache]

I always thought my degree focusing on Information Systems (read: SQL and Relational Database Theory) was a waste of time but its got such a huge application everywhere I'm actually pretty glad i did do it.

only problem is, all these systems that are set up especially where i work, ending up having huge failings because the guy that hacked it up only had a rudimentary knowledge of SQL and databases so made it with a few fundamental Flaws. *shakes head*

SQL is a 4th generation language, and like all the generations its Concepts thats important....the rest is just syntax. Once you understand the core of programming in that generation you can pick up any language relatively quickly. The different languages are always going to be changing and you cant go into programming thinking you're only going to be programming in one language for the rest of your career (ie Java, C#, C+, .Net).

Unfortunatly though, its looking to a newcomer to the industry its both the pieces of paper you have and the experience. Apparently the MCSE and certifications like that ( MySQL Certification, Oracle Certification, Cisco Certification) holds even more clout than any IT degree would hope to have.

[Tintin]

I've been trying to teach myself Java and things are going nowhere fast. Can anyone suggest any good IRL courses I could do? Cost could be a consideration.

[dwarfthrower]

I've been trying to teach myself Java and things are going nowhere fast. Can anyone suggest any good IRL courses I could do? Cost could be a consideration.

Your best bet would be to enroll in one of the university "programming in Java 101" courses as an out-of-degree unit. However if cost is a consideration, scratch that - because a one semester IT unit at monash will set you back in excess of 2k.

If it's something work-based then MonashIT run industry targetted courses - but they're even pricier for like a one-week course.

The Sun Java courses are the mutt's nuts as far as industry accreditation goes, but they're well beyond beginner level and getting up towards four thousand for a five day course.

This sort of thing: http://www.bhtafe.edu.au/ShortCourses/CTN06.htm looks a bit dinky, but might be worth the investment. Unfortunately it started tonight, but I'm sure the other tafes will have similar things going from time to time. For $300 odd dollars - even if it just gets you pointed in the right direction it's probably worth it.

[Tintin]

Thanks for that, that Box Hill TAFE course could be the kind of thing I need. I found this website that does Flash-based online courses, http://www.joegrip.com/ . I was quite impressed with the demos and I'm thinking of paying for a subscription.