The Washington Sniper

[MisterBishi]

I'm sure everybody is aware of the sniper who is currently shooting 'random' people in Washington.

Does anybody else think that this person may be of the opinion* that George Bush is planning to 'kill innocents' and 'play god' (tarot card), with the obvious link being the petrol stations?

I don't know, I'm drunk.

* /me does not necessarily share this opinion, let's not turn this into another anti-US thread.

[Bostonmess]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was terrorists. Saying that everyone who does this shit is. The "I am god" thing could be a clue to 'em being of any religious persuasion. Or it might just be a piss take. Wonder if the card was the tower? Not being funny, but it's supposed to be a dodgy card I think, and also carries a cruel statement with it. I suppose info like that won't be released because it helps 'em differentiate between copycats? Not saying that the card will be that. Not all the West's enemies come from overseas.

Never thought about the petrol station link. It's a good point but maybe just coincidence, the killers wanted a fast/easy escape but it was still a good place for victims? The child killing is even more awful as I don't see how even the most twisted can see infants as enemies. Two people in a white van I suppose is unusual, but probably not unheard of. Put it all together and I'm none the wiser.

[Edit] Seriously here it could just be some loonies who's favourite film is Dirty Harry. I don't envy the cops trying to suss it out. Though hopefully the ladder rack is a big help.

[MisterBishi]

Originally posted by Charley Dancey
Wonder if the card was the tower? Not being funny, but it's supposed to be a dodgy card I think, and also carries a cruel statement with it. I suppose info like that won't be released .

Lots of UK newspapers have said that it is the death card.

[Bostonmess]

Think in mine it was something to do with cataclysm. But I had a weird deck. Aleister Crowley designed it. Not that I do it, it was just as an interest for a few months.

[MisterBishi]

Apparently the death card is not a bad omen and signifies the end of something or closure.

[Agent4096]

Originally posted by Charley Dancey

Seriously here it could just be some loonies who's favourite film is Dirty Harry. I don't envy the cops trying to suss it out. Though hopefully the ladder rack is a big help. [/B]

Dirty Harry, although a classic, is not the inspiration for most such cases, Scorpio was there for the money and the thrill after all. I don't think this one is movie related.

If it was a terrorist, then there would be somekind of ownage of the crimes. They always leave a phone message or mail stating their reasonings.

I definetly believe this is a US-home grown killer, with nothing better to do with their time. A serial killer usually likes to plan and make it nice and close with their victim, but these one's seem to be "victims of opportunity". Which fit the mold of the Scorpio killer in Dirty Harry, but there have been no demands for cash.

Very strange. Frankly my own opinion is that one of the US-home based psychos finally got tired of the fact that the record is held by an Australian, and is trying to take it back to US soil.

[Bostonmess]

That's a good point but I can't see 'em getting that far ?

[Goat Boy]

As much as I hate John Howard I must sing his praises for reducing the numbers of guns in Australia and hopefully reducing the chances that some nutter does this kid of heinous act here in Australia.

Each time some nutter does this I keep asking myself when the USA will ponder if it really does "have the right to bare arms." How many dead kids in schools or shooting rampages does it take?

I also have a feeling that the executives at Warner Bros. and the other big movie conglomerates have already written a movie contract for the Washington Snipper to sign the second he gets caught so they can make the film version of his life.

[Goat Boy]

Originally posted by Agent4096
Very strange. Frankly my own opinion is that one of the US-home based psychos finally got tired of the fact that the record is held by an Australian, and is trying to take it back to US soil.

What is the critera for holding the record? Timothy J. McVeigh got 168 to Martin Bryant's 35.

[Cassa]

Originally posted by MisterBishi
Apparently the death card is not a bad omen and signifies the end of something or closure.

Correct. The tower represents catastrophe, and would also have links to sep. 11 which makes it more likely that'd be the card

[Grumblefish]

Originally posted by Goat Boy
What is the critera for holding the record? Timothy J. McVeigh got 168 to Martin Bryant's 35.

I think he means personally carrying out the act of murder for each individual, such as shooting them one by one, rather than placing a bomb and leaving. If it didn't matter how you killed the people, then Stalin would probably be number one on his list.

[Goat Boy]

It seems to be a serial killer you need atleast five kills with one to two kills at a time.

With that in mind it would be hard to top Pedro Alonso Lopez, also mad props going out to Dr. Harold Shipman.

What a fucked up planet to live on.

[angel_b]

I believe that the Port Arthur massacre remains the largest "mass murder" in history, with, as GF pointed out, the murderer personally killing each victim.

[Goat Boy]

I still think Pedro "I lost my innocence at age eight so I decided to do the same to as many young girls as I could " Lopez holds the crown at around 300:


From Pedro Lopez: The "Monster of the Andes" by David Lohr (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/pedro_lopez/index.htm)
The director of prison affairs, Victor Lascano, later explained: "If someone confesses to 53 you find, and hundreds more, you tend to believe what he says." Lascano also told reporters that, "I think his estimate of 300 is very low."

The only person to give Pedro a run for his money is Dr. Harold Shipman. Shipman may be looking at around the 400 mark:
Interned just 5 weeks earlier in the Hyde cemetery, the 81-year-old ex-mayoress held, in death, the key to solving nearly 400 murders. This would give killer Dr Harold Shipman the dubious distinction of being the greatest serial murderer the world has ever known.
Crime Library (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial8/shipman/)

[angel_b]

Okay, let's try this again ....

Martin Bryant was a "mass murderer". He killed a whole bunch of people in the one place at the same time.

The crimes that you quoted, Goat Boy, were "serial killings" - the murdering of a whole bunch of people, one or two at a time, at different times.

Now, can we see the difference?

[jack]

Originally posted by Grumblefish


I think he means personally carrying out the act of murder for each individual, such as shooting them one by one, rather than placing a bomb and leaving. If it didn't matter how you killed the people, then Stalin would probably be number one on his list.

Stalin or Pol Pot?

[Goat Boy]

Serial Murder is defined as three or more separate events in three or more separate locations with an emotional cooling off period between homicides. The serial murder is hypothesized to be premeditated, involving offense related fantasy and detailed planning. When the time is right for him and he has cooled off from his last homicide, the serial killer selects his next victim and proceeds with his plan. the cooling off period can last for days, weeks, or months and is the key feature that distinguishes the serial killer from other multiple killers.
Crime Classification Manual, Ressler, Douglas, Burgess, Burgess. 1992


Any single event, single location homicide involving four or more victims is classified as mass murder. From there it branches out into 'classic mass murder' and 'family mass murder', both pretty self explanatory. We also have spree murder, which is just a mass murder with two or more different locations with no cooling off period between each murder.
Crime Classification Manual, Ressler, Douglas, Burgess, Burgess. 1992


Right, that is the definitions done, lets get on with the awards.
Serial Murder:
Dr. Harold Shipman (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial8/shipman/)

Mass Murder:
Woo Bum-kon

DOB: Unknown
Died : April 26, 1982
Body count : 53. Plus 36 wounded.

He was a 27-year-old policeman in South Korea who raided an armoury and then went village to village "stabbing and exploding anything that moved." When cornered by police he took his own life.

Seems it is quite difficult to find any decent info on him. Some one called Brian Lane appartly wrote about him and you can find some info here (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/4077/woo.html) and here (http://massmurder.dyns.net/woo_bum-kon.htm).

I really think I should be doing something more productive with my day.

[angel_b]

Hehe ... you said "bum". :p

So, it looks like the Woo guy beats out Bryant by almost 20.

[mjolnir]

could be a new measure on ppl wh dont pay for their petrol, them wascaly wabbits :D

[Grumblefish]

Originally posted by angel_b
Hehe ... you said "bum". :p

So, it looks like the Woo guy beats out Bryant by almost 20.

Err, he just defined Bryant as a spree killer, meaning he is in a totally different competition. Aussie's still hold the record, for good or for bad (wasn't Bryant a retard anyway?). Stalin also ranks higher than Pol Pot, and there was some other killer nicknamed "Stalin's Child" who got away with a ton of murders because of a crappy law enforcement job on Russia's behalf.

[angel_b]

Yup, well picked up there GF. I had totally forgotten that Bryant switched locations, thus defining him as a spree killer.

[katana]

Bryant is an interisting guy because he is one of the ones who is in custody and didn't top himself. All the worlds top criminoligists have had interviews with him to find out how the thinks,that's why he has such high security.

As for the U.S. sniper I personally think he is a highly trained sniper who has had a lot of battle experience. He has the ability to do what a military sniper is trained to do.
a. One shot,one victim.
b.Get in and out without being seen.
c.Install fear in the area of opperations.
d.Keep his area of opperations limited in their daily functions.

Hitting petrol stations is another piont that he might have military training.. I know a guy who was a sniper in the Faulklands war and he said he used to snipe at the Argintine dunny's and thier food hall,because someone who is afraid to eat and shit is very scared. Americans as we all do love their cars,if you can't fuel them you are afraid to go out.

[Mrak]

Or he might be a nutbar who likes shooting people and has worked out that a great place to snipe someone is at gas station because its one of the few activitys which involves people stopping, getting out of their cars and standing quite still next to it for a minute. You cant get an easier target than that unless you start popping people at bus stops or ATM machines.

Ive been thinking about this too much

[beowulf437]

Of the 10 victims of the "Sniper" 4 were shot at gas stations the other 6 were shot at random locations.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/11/shooting.victims/index.html

Thats seem to blow the oil protest thing out of the water. The Tarot card left at the scene of one shooting was the death card.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/820186.asp?pne=msn

In the Tarot death generally means change. Unless of course it is upside down then it means mediocrity.

The idea that the sniper is a trained military sniper is also unlikely. Though he may have had military experience, the military looks for stable well adjusted idividuals for sniper school. Sniper school is as rigorous as any other special forces and requires a deal of individual stability.

The kind of areas and types of shots he is making point more to a deer hunter than a military sniper. He is setting up in an area where he is likely to find a victim then making a shot when he gets a chance. Also it is deer hunting season in both Maryland and Virginia.

[beowulf437]

There also seems to be some confusion over the terms serial killer, mass murderer, and spree killer.

Serial killers like Pedro Alonso Lopez (300+) and H.H. Holmes (200+) tend to seek some kind of satisfaction from killing. The usually have a criteria for their victims and often take trophies or have some momento of each of their crimes.

Mass murderers like Timothy McVeigh (168) and Julio Gonzalez (87) usually kill a group of people based on some sense of revenge or righting some injustice.

Spree Killers like Martin Bryant (35) and Charles Whitman (18) often just snap and start killing.

[Ins0mniac]

Originally posted by beowulf437
The kind of areas and types of shots he is making point more to a deer hunter than a military sniper. He is setting up in an area where he is likely to find a victim then making a shot when he gets a chance. Also it is deer hunting season in both Maryland and Virginia.

He actually reminded me of a deer hunter, as well. He seems to be "hunting" his victims. As horrible as that sounds.

[Tintin]

Should this thread be re-named 'Serial Killer Thread!!' ?

[beowulf437]

This guy the "Sniper" doesn't seem to fit the pattern of a serial killer. He acts more like a spree killer in that he is indescriminate about his targets. I also don't think that he acts crazy or has a history of mental illness. He appears to be well organized, neat, and inteligent.

The 'clues' left at the scene of the shooting at the middle school probably weren't clues at all. He is most likely well informed enough to realise that bullet casings can be matched to the gun that fired them, so he might have used a casing fired from a different gun. I also believe that the rifle he is using is one that he has had for a very long time. A person doesn't get good with a particular gun without practice. He might have access to a gun club with a rifle range.

Most killers start with someone they know. I would venture a guess that either one of his early victims or a yet unsolved homocide will be linked to him.

[crescent]

I'd say sniper is the wrong term to apply - marksman is probably more accurate (no pun intended). This person has not demonstrated the evasion tactics used by snipers. He/she is an accurate shot from a distance, but as yet has not been sufficiently pursued to call a "sniper".

The skills of being a decent marksman can be developed through practice on a range. They appear to be very competent, as they do not seem to have a favoured "lie", but will go to various locations. One very scary individual, which probably feeds the "God" complex. Kind of reminds me of the camp commandant in Schindler's List - exerting the power over who lives and who dies seems to be a powerful stimulant.

[Ins0mniac]

Originally posted by crescent
I'd say sniper is the wrong term to apply - marksman is probably more accurate (no pun intended). This person has not demonstrated the evasion tactics used by snipers. He/she is an accurate shot from a distance, but as yet has not been sufficiently pursued to call a "sniper".

Ah well. I thought snipering was shooting from a distance with a rifle (generally conceled). Shows how much bloody computer games teach ya!

[Ins0mniac]

snip·er Pronunciation Key (snpr)
n.
1. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place.

2. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.



marks·man Pronunciation Key (märksmn)
n.
1. A man skilled in shooting at a target.

2. A classification in the U.S. Army and Marine Corps for the lowest of three ratings of rifle proficiency.
One who holds this rating.

3. \Marks"man\, n.; pl. Marksmen. [Earlier markman; mark + man.] 1. One skillful to hit a mark with a missile; one who shoots well.

[Agent4096]

Tasdavil has solved the sniper/marksman debate.

The mention of deer hunting season just keeps putting images of Gary Larson cartoons in my mind.

I don't think the standard "serial killer profile" will fit this one.

Certainly he is going for the easy to hit targets, people at gas stations or sitting at bus stops. And as it was pointed out hitting people doing the most mundane tasks, the first guy was mowing his lawn.

A serial killer usually likes to have a bit of personal contact with the victim. Hunting is an inpersonal business, you put your target in your crosshairs, check your breathing, count your heartbeats and squeeze the trigger.

It takes a lot of control to make each bullet count. Having actually hunted a lot when I was younger I know how tough it is to make a one-hit kill. There are so many variables to worry about, the wind, your prey moving, judging the distance correctly, and this guy has to worry about being spotted not only by his prey.

This is a very dangerous hombre, very cool and calculating. Probably well trained by somebody out there. And yes, elite forces people have been known to crack, even though they try to get the stablest people around, they too can buckle at the seams after seeing a lot of shit going down.

BTW, the US isn't the only country capable of training elite snipers. Every army has them, and I'm sure that there are plenty out there with dead relatives whose blood is on the American consciense.

[Bostonmess]

What I'm wondering is: is it really that difficult? I don't know, so I seek information. How far away do they reckon he was. I think I heard about 100 yards. How far can they hit people from these days? I think I might have heard a mile, but this seems rediculous.

With todays weapons technology, could it not be very easy? I suppose it depends on what type of gun he is using. Is the gun a good one?

[crescent]

Distance is one thing, however you need to be allow for wind between barrel and target, fall of the shot over distance (bullets follow a parabolic curve over distance), and time from pulling the trigger to bullet strike. Your average hunter doesn't have to allow for these things, or develop the skills of a marksman - they get closer.

Dictionary definitions are one thing, definitions in use are another. Snipers tend to be highly trained, marksmen are accurate shots. Police refer to their "snipers" as marksman, as they would not necessarily make the grade as a sniper for a military unit. To be a sniper, there are a number of skills you need to develop beyond shooting accurately from a distance.

[Bostonmess]

Do the sights not sort out the problem of the "parabolic curve"?

[Grumblefish]

I don't usually have a problem with internet inspired literacy, but this is just getting ridiculous. Sniper originated from a birds name, the snipe. It was used to describe someone who could shoot the bird with a gun, and soon was used to describe anyone who was able to hit things at distance with accuracy.

Dictionary.com is the worst dictionary I have ever seen in my life, and I hate it when people quote it like it is gold.

[crescent]

Depends on the rifle. They also then need to have an accurate measure of distance to use the sights properly, and knowledge of the load you are firing - powder and weight of projectile affect the fall of the shot.

[druid]

Originally posted by Charley Dancey
What I'm wondering is: is it really that difficult? I don't know, so I seek information. How far away do they reckon he was. I think I heard about 100 yards. How far can they hit people from these days? I think I might have heard a mile, but this seems rediculous.

With todays weapons technology, could it not be very easy? I suppose it depends on what type of gun he is using. Is the gun a good one?

100 yards (about 91 m) is nothing. You can easily hit an area with a diameter of 20 cm from 150 meters. This doesn't require a sniper rifle, a common assault rifle will do. Also, you don't need any special sights (like the telescopic sight in sniper rifles.)

Change the distance to 300 meters and then you might need a telescopic sight but hitting the same head sized area from that distance with a sniper/marksman rifle is still childs play.

I suppose it is possible to hit a target from 1 km but it gets more tricky and I have no real experience of that. Crescent's points are very valid when going this far. I would pay more attention to the wind and distance than the brand of the used ammunition. Usually you already know how your ammunition performs and don't vary it much (especially with non-sniper rifles.) The gunpowder temperature and such affect the trajectory but I don't know how much it counts. With mortars and cannons this is more significant.

You can adjust the sight to eliminate both sideways wind and the parabolic curve. The sideway adjustment is more diffucult and generally needs a test shot or two unless you know your gun and sight really well and can somehow determine the wind speed.

Adjusting the sight for different distances (i.e. the parabolic trajectory) is easier and doesn't require a test shot. The sights usually have a scale for distances so it's easy to just snap it in the correct position.

[Shaneus]

Note to self: Druid knows way too much about guns... be nice to him :)

But very informative though... the only shooting I ever did was with an air rifle, and that was damn hard (had teh caffeine shakes), but I'm keen to try one of these sniper rifles... would there be a range somewhere (similar to a driving range) to have a go? I would assume you'd need a license etc though :(

[druid]

Originally posted by Shaneus
Note to self: Druid knows way too much about guns... be nice to him :)

I don't own any though. All my experiences and "knowledge" come from the army.

Originally posted by Shaneus
But very informative though... the only shooting I ever did was with an air rifle, and that was damn hard (had teh caffeine shakes), but I'm keen to try one of these sniper rifles... would there be a range somewhere (similar to a driving range) to have a go? I would assume you'd need a license etc though :(

I find the air rifle harder to master than the assault rifle. Not knowing much about Australian legislation, I don't know how you could test it but don't you generally only need a license for owning guns. Maybe there are some shooting clubs that arrange "test days." Or if you knew someone who went to the range, I'm sure you could just hop in and try it there.

[crescent]

Usually, the problem is not in the accuracy of the rifle, but in the skill of the shooter. You need a steady platform to shoot from, and to be fairly steady in hand if going for a distance.

From memory, (this comes from the hand loading handbooks), depending on muzzle velocity, drop is measured in hundred metre increments (eg 1 cm drop per 100 metres travelled) - but I cannot remember the distance of that drop. Anything under 100 metres, and we are talking simple shooter at the skill level of a proficient hunter.

I don't know the distances the Washington guy is shooting from - either way he is a scary bastard!

Aus legislation means you would have to get a licence (strictly speaking), but if you accompany a licenced owner to a rifle range and have a go, they don't mind. If you get the basic licence here, you would have to attend the range a minimum 4 times per year and have it certified to keep your licence. The basic licence allows you to hold a decent, bolt action rifle - well suited to hunting.

[crescent]

I take it all back Charley - just went through some articles citing a range of about 150 metres, so druid's comments apply - they are basic shots from a good lie. Labelling this guy a "sniper" denigrates the skills of the guys who train as snipers in the army.

[druid]

Originally posted by crescent
Usually, the problem is not in the accuracy of the rifle, but in the skill of the shooter. You need a steady platform to shoot from, and to be fairly steady in hand if going for a distance.

Very true. If you are lying on the ground this kind of steady position is quite easy to assume.

Originally posted by crescent
drop is measured in hundred metre increments (eg 1 cm drop per 100 metres travelled) - but I cannot remember the distance of that drop. Anything under 100 metres, and we are talking simple shooter at the skill level of a proficient hunter.

Sounds quite accurate. This is easy to calculate if you don't take the air resistance into account. That way you could get a rough estimate and know how much it drops in the least.

***EDIT***
Just calculated: if the muzzle velocity is 715 m/s (like it is for a certain assault rifle), the bullet drops about 10 cm per 100 metres travelled. This is without air resistance.
***/EDIT***

Originally posted by crescent
Aus legislation means you would have to get a licence (strictly speaking), but if you accompany a licenced owner to a rifle range and have a go, they don't mind. If you get the basic licence here, you would have to attend the range a minimum 4 times per year and have it certified to keep your licence. The basic licence allows you to hold a decent, bolt action rifle - well suited to hunting.

That's quite reasonable actually. Here you have to first join a club and get them to write you a certificate that you are a hobbyist. Then you can apply for the license for a .22 pistol. You use the same procedure to upgrade your class and get bigger weapons. There might be a different procedure for hunting. At the least, you have to qualify in an exam that includes theory and rules of hunting and some shooting. I don't know if this is enough qualification for a rifle a license but it earns you the right to hunt animals.

[Ado]

This thread has finally drawn me out of lurking... Oh no I'm exposed.. *runs* :eek:

A range of 300m using a teleoscopic sight on a well set up rifle it is easy to hit a human sized target. Especially from a prone postion.

Using almost identical rifles as the Aus. army (and British for that matter) snipers use (in fact we quite often compete against them) we shoot anything up to 1000 yds using peep sites (non scope). And they quite regularly hit the centre of the target which is approx 1 ft in diameter at 900 yrds. At 300yrds the 2 inch dia bull of the target gets basically shreaded.

Cresent, with regard to the having a go at a rifle range, unless they have changed the law you use to be able to turn up and under supervision (ie they carry the firearm up and back and you only have it while actually shooting) you could have a go.

[Bussie]

Originally posted by Shaneus
Note to self: Druid knows way too much about guns... be nice to him :)

But very informative though... the only shooting I ever did was with an air rifle, and that was damn hard (had teh caffeine shakes), but I'm keen to try one of these sniper rifles... would there be a range somewhere (similar to a driving range) to have a go? I would assume you'd need a license etc though :(

As far as I know in Victoria you don't need a license for range shooting, I have done so many a time at the Barwon Vally Range in Breakwater(stated for shaneus's reference) without a license.
But for a basic license you only need to apply at a police station, then take an exam on a given date, no need for range certification.

[Goat Boy]

http://www.damnshow.com/sniper.jpg

Yucko the Clown called out the tarot card sniper today on Howard Stern. Yucko said he will spend all day Wednesday October 16th at a Virgina gas station (that will disclosed sometime today right here) holding a big red bullseye.

"He doesn't have that balls to shoot me-- I AM GOD and no tarot throwing faggot is gonna take me out!"

Yucko is known for his drunken public stunts. He was arrested for running on to Turner Field in 2001 and is on probation for exposing himself in public at a puppet show. This is the first stunt were Yucko has put his life on the line - check back for updates to see if Yucko gets his clowny ass killed.

Yucko encourages anyone who is fed up with the sniper to gather with him at his to be revealed location.

http://www.damnshow.com/sniper.html


i can only hope for a head shot.
i hate clowns.

[Ins0mniac]

Originally posted by Goat Boy
Yucko the Clown called out the tarot card sniper today on Howard Stern. Yucko said he will spend all day Wednesday October 16th at a Virgina gas station (that will disclosed sometime today right here) holding a big red bullseye.

Yucko encourages anyone who is fed up with the sniper to gather with him at his to be revealed location.

Hmmmm. That doesn't sound half dangerous, does it?

[katana]

Rifles generally have a greater range than an assult rifle. The .303 had an effective range of up to a mile the 7.62 FN SLR had an effective range of about 1500 meters.

Purpose built sniper rifles have effective ranges up to about 2000 meters Such as the stoner weapon system.

Most ranges depend on barrel rifling and the size of the charge and what powder is used and weight of projectile,wind and drop rate of projectile.

Most millitary snipers prefer shooting from a range of 1000 to 1500 meters as it gives them more time to get away.

[ersatz]

long shot, but is it possible this is a returning army person who's been given Larium?

[Agent4096]

Okay everyone seems to be up to date on the fact that if he is shooting from less than 100 meters this guy can be just a good shot / not necesseraly an excellent one.

There have been weapons able to hit accurate long distances for a century a least, Sharpes rifles could easily hit a target from a 1000 yards. The only problem is their size.

A sniper rifle is a big thing, trust me they're long and not easy to hide, well in the bush when you're camouflaged it's nice and easy, but in the middle of a street they're kind of obvious. A lot of assault weapons use the .223 calibre, it's a NATO standard. And I belive a M14 assault rifle can easily be purchased in the US.

An M14, shorter version of the M16 can easily provide the range. So that means we can broaden the suspect range.

It isn't just army elite now. It's also police, proficient hunters, or anyone with a bit of time at the local range.

I would rule out homeys from the bronx and chicanos from the south, they can't shoot for shit.

[katana]

There's an easy way to catch him..

Round up all the people with guns in Washington,shoot the ones who resist,the ones who resist and survive send to Cuba and then bomb the shit out of the place.

It's simple.

[Nandragon]

In reference to Grumblys statement about sniper and the bird the snipe. Ahahahahahahahah! Anyone ever been on a snipe hunt but me? Ahahahahahahaha. Anyone here ever been hunting? Coons? Deer? Pheasant? Dove?

Also, I don't think that the gun this person is using is a "specialty" gun. I believe that they have stated it is a rifle that one could pick up at any gun shop. I know from experience that with a decent rifle and a scope, and with lots of practice I could hit almost any target from 100 yards! Hell, I can hit my target of 75 yards without the scope on my 25mm hand gun!
My father has taken me shooting since I was 7yrs. Here in the states esp. in the south there are shooting galleries in almost every gun shop. Hell, there are 2 near my house now. If I could afford the bullets I'd probably go shooting every week. I wish I could buy a larger calibre gun too! but my 25 get my point accross!

[MisterBishi]

Originally posted by beowulf437
Of the 10 victims of the "Sniper" 4 were shot at gas stations the other 6 were shot at random locations.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/South/10/11/shooting.victims/index.html

Thats seem to blow the oil protest thing out of the water

I disagree, I think he could be going for the 'Bush killing innocents' thing too.

[Grumblefish]

Originally posted by Nandragon
In reference to Grumblys statement about sniper and the bird the snipe. Ahahahahahahahah!

I don't understand, are you agreeing or not?

[Nandragon]

Both.

The snipe an illusive bird. We rednecks in the south will usually take an unsuspecting "yank" snipe hunting. In the dark. Early morning hours or late evening hours. Leave your ass in the woods for HOURS. with nothing but a burlap bag and a stick. You find it, run it that a ways and we'll sack it. Yeah right! First of all a snipe is small about 3lbs. You don't eat them, they're Fast, very fast and illusive. Shooting a snipe with a sniper gun! HA! Like trying to shoot a mouse with a 44 magnum.
Mostly it's just a trick to leave your ass in the woods, cold, hungry and alone. Now...if you went with a skin head....he's going to leave you in the woods AND scare the shit out of you. We normally go back for you in a couple of hours but HE wouldn't!

[Grumblefish]

So you're agreeing with me then :D

[beowulf437]

There is a lot of talk about about the skill and the kind of rifle the sniper in Washington is using. I must admit I am not the best shot I know. With my .30-30 with open sights I could hit a 4 inch target from 300 yards with a couple practice shots. With my M-1 carbine (yes it is classed as an assault rifle) I have to be within 100 yards to make the same shot, which no better than I can do with a .22 rifle. There is no mention in the news about the ranges this guy is using but .223 amuntion rapidly losses it effectiveness after about 500 yards.

The fact that this guy is hitting and killing in one shot tends to indicate he is within 500 yards and is very familliar with his rifle and ammunition. It also tends to indicate he is using a hunting rifle as assault rifles are not made for accuracy.

The reason I think he is a deer hunter is he is setting up his shots the way I was taught to hunt. Set up where you know game will be, make sure you have a clear field, don't shot unless you know you have a clean kill. The big problem is he is hunting people not deer.

[Bostonmess]

Anyone here think the yanks should cut back on the gun thing a little bit? I mean, you can probably guess my opinion, but I don't live there so it's nowt' to do wi' me.

How about calling in the military to sort this sniper out? I tell you something, it might be a mad idea but I would consider it. It's a massive task catching this fucker, he shoots from afar and he's gone before the cops get there. If the military were there, they'd just overkill the situation (I reckon) which would be a good thing. Massive dragnets etc. Okay we're talking major disruption (loss of money) but if they catch/stop him in my book it would be worth it.

[Nandragon]

We would have to change everything that our gov't is based on, if we gave up our god given right to bear arms! When I was a child and when my parents were children everyone owned a gun. For hunting and recreation. We were taught the finer points of shooting, storing and owning a gun. Children now days are coddled and kept from such things. (Even from discipline itself.
Of course most ppl don't go hunting anymore. We do however still have such sports as skeet shooting and others (even in the olympics) My daughter has been taught how NOT to shoot, play with or even touch my gun. It is NOT locked up. What damn good is it if someone breaks into the house and I can't get to the damn gun?

I've read in several places that the reason for more perverted, maniacal deviants and serial killers is NOT because of guns, up bringing or religion but because the world is more heavily populated than it was say 100 years ago. If ONE serial killer 100 years ago was on the loose it would have been harder for him to stalk prey and kill them readily. Now however with the population boom, we have more victims as well as more killers. (did I say this right? Hopefully I've made my point)

[el_guapo]

One thing that most people are not considering is a .223 target pistol. These guns are very accurate can mount a scope and would be much easier to conceal and is practically silenced right out of the box. I think the tarot card and shell casings are there to fuck with the cops.

[el_guapo]

Go Here (http://www.jpfo.org/alert20021010.htm ) to see what the Loonies at Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership have to say about the subject


I love these guys

[Bostonmess]

Lol! I found that very funny "God given right to bear arms." You already have gun control in America? It's just how far you take it.

I remember a few years in Scotland, a man went into a school and wiped out a class of children and their teacher. Our "King" was of the opinion that he could have done it with a cricket bat. So why don't we ban cricket bats?

I know that like 99.99 (or whatever) percent of people who own guns do so responsibly. It's not right for these people to be asked to give up "their god given right" :). I think they should do it voluntarily. Everyone in the world. Not like it's going to happen :(

I don't know what the kick is to hunting and taking a life because I've never done it. I imagine there's a bigger kick to killing than to just hitting an inanimate object? This would worry me if I enjoyed? it. I am not vegetarian/vegan and see nothing wrong with killing and eating (cannibals excepted:)). I would like to have a go at paintball, though not like the loonies on Jackass (ow!). I do play counterstrike.

You always need a finger on a trigger to kill. Like they say guns don't kill people, people kill people. So can I have a big tank if I swear not to blow anyone up with it?

I know kids need to be taught more right and wrong, but until they are I reckon people shouldn't carry/have guns. As much as it hurts to lose them.

[Nandragon]

Originally posted by el_guapo
Go Here (http://www.jpfo.org/alert20021010.htm ) to see what the Loonies at Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership have to say about the subject


I love these guys This did make sense to me:
From Montgomery County, Maryland, the major scene of the murders, N.B. writes:

... [O]ur forefathers would have ... sent out the town crier, rounded up the militia with their muskets, a pound of shot and flask of powder.

A century later it would have been a posse, or the local hired gun sheriff or city constable on patrol.

It's two centuries later and our children are being slaughtered in the government schools, gun-free zones, and who do we turn to?

It has occurred to me that nearly everyone, from my neighbors, shaking in their boots, afraid to send their children off to school tomorrow ... to our inarticulate and ineffectual chief of Police Charles Moose, who all say there just aren't enough police to go around. ...

[After a discussion of the ways trained observers determine the source of a shot in a busy, noisy environment, N.B. continues:]

He has time to kill. Time to wait, and calmly drive off in the flow of traffic.

Who can stop such a killer?

The average beat cop? They can't stop carjackings, rapes, home invasions or any of a number of other violent crimes by their presence on the street. How can they possibly have an affect in this circumstance?

I don't think they can, or should, or should have to.

Those of you who have read 18USC310, and Article I section 8 of our Constitution ... know that it is our sacred duty as the adults in our society to stand up for women and children, not to throw them to the wolves to save our own hides. ...

[W]e, the body of citizens made up of men ages 15 to 45... have an obligation to DO something here, and now.

We are the militia. The original homeland security.

What if we propose taking turns guarding schools at our own neighborhood schools; armed of course.

And why not? We've trained in manuals of arms for many different weapons, we probably spend more time at the range in a month than the cops do in a year. Who better to identify the barrel of a gun, the glint of a scope or other aiming device, locate the source of a gunshot, identify and possibly stop perpetrator(s)? Who among the citizenry has the correct moral standing to watch over our own children? I would rather take a chance catching a bullet while guarding my children at play than get a phone call from some anonymous but well-meaning school representative or cop. Would a street cop put him or herself in line for a sniper's bullet to protect MY kid? ...

Can you imagine the indignant rage and hypocrisy of the well- guarded elites in this state, home of the nation's most robbed and now number three in violent crime and murder if we demanded our rights as parents and citizens to defend our own children? They'd go ballistic, don't you think? How do you think they'd respond to the assertion that We The People can do a better job guarding our own children than the police have so far, can, or will?

You know, I just can't help the thought that despite the dog and pony show, the inexorable grind towards squashing yet another of our freedoms, pushing towards what VPC and the Brady Bunch are calling for (an NFA registry of "sniper rifles" or mandatory fingerprinting in contravention to GCA 68), we're not being told the whole story here.

------

[Bostonmess]

Sounds like a good idea. But obviously there should be a some rules adhered to.

Things like, the citizens willing to do this should have certs, should be passed by the police. You can't just have some rookie go along.

All the people doing this should be vouched for by other individuals, and the police (no dodgy criminal records), As mentioned you could guard your own kids schools etc, thereby being known. Hopefully this will stop the "enemy" from infiltrating as easily.

They should be in groups and should be known within that group. E.g. the same gun/hunting club. Obviously it's harder to shoot them all.

They should have identification, some sort of uniform? at the least a pinned on ID card.

There's probably other things that need to be done too, but I'm all out.

It's a bit like reverting back to the days of the posse. But desperate times, desperate measures.

Hopefully you won't get anyone with itchy fingers making mistakes. When it's all over with, everyone should turn in their weapons.

I still reckon calling in the army would be better.

[Mrak]

Yes, a heavily armed vigilante mob stationed with large groups of children is the obvious solution to this problem.

Giving licence to a group of parents to shoot people outside their childrens schools is not the greatest idea Ive ever heard.

This is NOT the wild west no matter how much some people wish it were. People charged up on emotion with weapons outside schools might have worked in 1840 but not now.

If you thought 9 people shot dead was bad, introduce this great idea and youll be dealing with dozens.

[Grumblefish]

According to R.J Rummel, a political scientist at the University of Hawaii, these are the top nine people responsible for the most deaths:

1. Joseph Stalin, 43 million
2. Mao Tse-tung, 38 million
3. Adolf Hitler, 21 million
4. Chiang Kai-shek, 10 million
5. Vladimir Lenin, 4 million
6. Tojo Hideki, 4 million
7. Pol Pot, 2.4 million
8. Yahya Khan, 1.5 million
9. Josip Broz, 1.2 million

Rummel uses the basis of democide to judge who is responsible for which deaths, and he defines democide as the following:

"The murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide and mass murder."

As well as rating individual people, he has ranked the top ten regimes. Unsuprisingly, the USSR is number one with 62 million deaths over the period of 1917-87. Slightly over half that number was killed by the Peoples Republic of China, which came in second.

I know all this, because I have the article here with me. I tore it from my bosses newspaper (you know I have balls of steel).

[Ins0mniac]

Ah, the good old U.S.A. Home of the classic "Western" movies. Maybe nothing much has changed.

[Nandragon]

Yeeeeeee Haaaaaaa
*brandishes six shooters*

[beowulf437]

Pehaps citizen patrols would help catch this sniper, but they do not need guns. They need only have a good eyes and a cell phone. A couple thousand extra pairs of eyes would help the police more than anything else. It is not the job of the police to prevent crime (the supreme court said so), it's their job to catch the criminal after the fact. In the US we have a tradition of deputising citizens to aid in law inforcement. I was deputised once, I didn't get to carry a gun though, only a copy of a federal court order.

By deputising citizens to watch likely places the sniper may show up it would free up police officers to investigate and respond.

[Nandragon]

What about the glory sucking "witness". I think he should be turned loose to the mobs! What kinda scum says he saw something that he didn't? I saw this thing on 48hr (I think it was 48 hrs) where they set up a crime infront of a class of college students...40 something witnesses and only a few were really close to describing the perp. But someone to just "make up" shit?!!! Burn him!

[Bostonmess]

Make him fill cars at petrol stations?

[Nandragon]

we call 'em GAS STATIONS here dude

[Mrak]

I was deputised once,

God damn thats cool. I wish I was a deputy. Just like Deputy Dog

[wolfpac181]

I was watching a Show last night reegaurding the sniper. I'm failrly shocked about how much evidence has been put together already.

All distances of the sniper have been within 200 yards. this means that the sniper has an extreamly designed rifle with an optic scope. Most high powered rifles and scopes are both banned in the west and east coast of the US. All shots were taken withing 600 yards of busy intersections for easy escape.

He's been shooting with Optical scopes at a distance of under 200 yards. Pro-snipers can hit a target at over a 1000 yards. this means the guy has either some basic sharp-shooting skill, or none at all. The guy is an escape artist though. All attempts and times are near busy roadways when rush hour starts, making an escape easy.

Ballistic reports announced that he is using a rifle that is fairly expensive, over $1000. The weapon is semi-automatic, there are thirty varities of semi-auto rifles that house the caliber of the bullet, but barrel marking of found slugs reveal that the rifle could have been one of five possible rifles. Both costal areas of the US have banned long distance semi-auto rifles. This leaves the mid-west area where semi-auto rifles are still obtainable. Meaning that the sniper may have either lived or traveled to the mid-west some time ago.

The Death Tarot card with the note :"I am god" worries people. Criminal Psycologists believe that a long edistance killer with a Diety complex will keep attacking. They feel more important than who they shoot, and do not conceive that the target is actually a person because of distance. Not being able to hear their voice, or eye-contact. It makes the kill a whole lot easier for the person.


He will probably get caught soon. He's getting quite risky now with his distance and familarity by the media. Some random person is going to call up the police, give a tip, and bring the sniper down. Most fugitive murderers are caught that way.

[Bostonmess]

Originally posted by Nandragon
we call 'em GAS STATIONS here dude

Why?

[Ins0mniac]

Originally posted by Charley Dancey


Why?

Because for some weird reason Americans think petroleum is a gas? heheh

[Jen]

gas is short for gasoline, which is what the shit is... petroleum is something that is used for an anal lube :P

[hooptieride]

Originally posted by beowulf437
Pehaps citizen patrols would help catch this sniper, but they do not need guns. They need only have a good eyes and a cell phone.


didnt they have some plan in England a while ago to give old ladies special uniforms and mobile phones to help stop youth crime?

[Bostonmess]

Originally posted by superseksiwoman
petroleum is something that is used for an anal lube :P

Does Bush use it before one of his speeches? It would explain why he needs so much.

[royale]

Originally posted by superseksiwoman
gas is short for gasoline, which is what the shit is... petroleum is something that is used for an anal lube :P

That would be petroleum jelly, and it rapidly rots dingers.

[Bostonmess]

So I'm sat here watching Fox news. Apparently they've arrested a guy in a white truck (with ladder rack). They staked out this phone booth because they found a message a the last shooting with the phone number on. Instead of the police saying we'll phone you, they've said you phone us from that number.

Do people exist that are that thick?

[MisterBishi]

Originally posted by superseksiwoman
gas is short for gasoline, which is what the shit is... petroleum is something that is used for an anal lube :P

That's petroleum jelly.

[Bostonmess]

Well it's looking like he's done another (is this 13?). I've been watching the police searching cars on Fox news. Lets hope this guy doesn't use his boot (that's trunk Nan ;)) because None of the cops searched 'em from what I saw. Oh well it's nice to get everything moving again nice and quickly.

[Ins0mniac]

Eek! I just saw a white van pass by my house!!!!

Oh, wait... I'm on the other side of the world.

[kleph]

in case you haven't heard. . .

FREDERICK, Md. (AP) — One of America's most extraordinary manhunts culminated Thursday in the arrests of an Army veteran and a teenager, asleep at a roadside rest stop — perpetrators, authorities believe, of a bloody, three-week sniping spree that left 10 people dead and multitudes paralyzed by fear.

Montgomery County State's Attorney Douglas Gansler said state and federal prosecutors would meet Friday morning to discuss charges against John Allen Muhammad, 41, and 17-year-old John Lee Malvo. But law-enforcement sources told The Associated Press investigators were certain they had the culprits.

One source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a gun found in the suspects' car appeared to use .223-caliber bullets — the fatal calling card in the attacks that began Oct. 2 with the killing of James D. Martin in a grocery store parking lot in Wheaton, Md.

the rest is over at
The Associated Press (http://wire.ap.org/APnews/main.html?SLUG=SNIPER%2dSHOOTINGS) and every other stateside news site you can point your browser to.

[Ins0mniac]

Duck in a noose

The investigation included a series of cryptic exchanges between police and the sniper through the media - none more so than the reference to a Cherokee Indian tale of a rabbit that became trapped on its own noose while hunting a duck.

In his last press conference before the arrests, Montgomery County police chief Charles Moose said he had been asked by the sniper to mention the boastful rabbit.

"You have indicated that you want us to do and say certain things," he said.

"You've asked us to say, quote, 'We have caught the sniper like a duck in a noose', end quote. We understand that hearing us say this is important to you."

According to the Cherokee nation, the sniper was refering to the story, "Rabbit Goes Duck Hunting."

The rabbit challenges an otter to catch a duck. After watching the otter catch a duck from underwater, the rabbit tried to noose one with some tree bark. The duck flies away, carrying the rabbit on the end of the noose.

The rabbit falls into a tree stump and is trapped, only surviving by eating his own fur until some children hear his cries.

"The rabbit is a trickster that always gets himself in trouble by his own devices," said Chad Smith, principal chief of the Cherokee nation.

Some experts say maybe the sniper wanted to be compared to the duck making its escape.

But Cherokee nation spokeswoman Tera Shows says "in this case it looks like he is more the rabbit than the duck".

ABC

[Bostonmess]

Police speculated Friday that a large, white male driving a black pickup with an extended cab may be responsible for Thursday night’s killings outside two Kanawha County convenience stores, and possibly others.

Kanawha Sheriff Dave Tucker said at a Friday afternoon media conference that the killer “could be a possible serial-type murderer.”

Both victims of Thursday night’s convenience store shootings, Jeanie Patton, 31, and Okey Meadows, 26, were shot in the head area in a manner similar to the shooting of Gary Carrier Jr., 44, who was shot outside a Charleston convenience store Sunday night.

http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2003081514

[Bostonmess]

CHARLESTON, West Virginia (CNN) -- Investigators in the killings of three people at Charleston-area gas stations last week are questioning 100 people they consider suspects in those shootings, Kanawha County Sheriff Dave Tucker said Monday.

"We have 100 suspects at this time, and they're being interviewed as we speak now," Tucker told reporters Monday afternoon.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/08/18/w.va.shootings/index.html

[Bostonmess]

The picturesque town of Charleston tucked away in the shadows of the Allegheny mountains has seen nothing like this before.

Over the past week, the world's press has descended on the sleepy town as there was a real possibility another sniper - similar to that seen in Washington DC last year - could be on the loose.

But while they still do not have a clear motive for the killings, it may not after all be the work of a sniper.

Instead, the killings could be linked to a local dispute over drugs.

New information obtained by the police shows widespread drug use in the area surrounding the shootings, and at least one of the victims may have been involved in the supply of cocaine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3169065.stm