MCSE's.... who would you train with?

[brentwahn]

Hi all,

Most of the jobs for sysadmins and other networking-related roles are requesting that people have MCSE's or other IT training. I want a new job, so I'm interested in who to go with.

I've been talking to Seek about their Skillsoft web based training, but I'm not sure how dodgy it is. It's only $5k however, as opposed to $15-18k for classroom training.

Does anyone have anything to say on their knowledge of IT certification programmes? I've on the verge of signing with Seek, but I want to know what other people have to say.

[eeefreak]

dunno how i feel about this... my personal opinion is that MCSE's and A+ certs are worth precisely jack shit.

i have worked with dozens of techs who have certs up the yin yang and know absolutely fuck all about repairing pc's.

nothing can substitute hands on experience... so now it's time for the catch 22 situation where you cant get experience unless you have experience... repeat...

[brentwahn]

Whether they mean something or not, the fact is that LOADS of companies are requesting that people have certification.

In the last six months, I've been looking to upgrade my job, and because I don't have arseloads of networking experience (only a couple of years worth doing fairly simple stuff), they pretty much all have either listed it in the job adverts or asked in the interviews. Just look at the IT section on Seek, and you'll find most of them want certs.

Come on MCSE's... tell us your stories!

[dwarfthrower]

dunno how i feel about this... my personal opinion is that MCSE's and A+ certs are worth precisely jack shit.

Seconded.

[Dragoon]

MCSE - Must Consult Someone Else

Edit: you get paid well for doing it though

[brentwahn]

MCSE - Must Consult Someone Else

Edit: you get paid well for doing it though

That sounds suspiciously like a Manager...

[dwarfthrower]

MCSE - Must Consult Someone Else

Most Competent at Sitting Exams

[jasebert]

I have my MCSE, but..... I worked on a helpdesk first and basically learnt heaps of my stuff on the job. I just did not go into a training course to learn it and then started to work in IT. I know heaps of MCSE's (same goes with CCNA's) that are shit.
You will not get a job these days just on a MCSE. Get a helpdesk job first, then work your way to it. I read mine out of a book. No courses.

[dozer]

buy the books and sit the exams yourself, theres plenty of info on the intraweb, eg testking and transcenders.

[beerbaron]

mcsa is only 4 exams
it gives you a broad microsoft certification
then do a non MS exam eg
cisco , citrix or ITIL

[druid]

dunno how i feel about this... my personal opinion is that MCSE's and A+ certs are worth precisely jack shit.

i have worked with dozens of techs who have certs up the yin yang and know absolutely fuck all about repairing pc's.


Are you sure you are talking about the same type of role brentwahn meant? He mentioned sysadmins and network related roles. I don't see why techs in those positions should be fixing individual PCs.

Maybe there is an MCSE cert for fixing up a PC, I don't know, but this exchange reminds me a bit when people bitch about university educated guys sucking at helpdesk roles. I just can't understand why they think that education should have any relevance to specific tasks like that and then discredit the whole curriculum based on that.

[sagit]

...
Maybe there is an MCSE cert for fixing up a PC, I don't know, but this exchange reminds me a bit when people bitch about university educated guys sucking at helpdesk roles. I just can't understand why they think that education should have any relevance to specific tasks like that and then discredit the whole curriculum based on that.

there is MCP for WinXP and MCDST (Cert Desktop Support). those would be closest. next up would be A+ cert.

[Directed]

Do people still fix pc's? Isn't it cheaper just to chuck them and buy another for $400? I myself know how to component repair logic boards, but its a waste of time if you don't have a lot of them to do and you can do it in bulk.

[benzo]

I've been an MCSE since NT4, but do I think I'll ever get a job just because I'm an MCSE? Not a chance.

The certification got a really bad rep a few years ago when a lot of people went to bootcamp style courses, then passed the exams without really knowing anything about what they were doing. Although I think this is dying down now, a lot of seasoned IT pros are still pretty cynical and skeptical about the certification.

That said, I think that a lot of companies will ask for MCSE certified applicants because it's an easy measure, and by asking for an MCSE they also give the applicant some idea of what the job might be all about.

If I was hiring a senior admin, I would put MCSE in the ad, but I wouldn't necessarily require it. Experience counts for a lot more than paper. Likewise when I'm reviewing candidates I look at their certs, along with how they attained them (bootcamp, self study etc.), but I don't judge someone just by that. Most people I know, MCSE or not, think like this.

The MCSE can also be a good door opener, and might get you past the first CV cut. For example, the job ad for my current job required a degree, which I don't have. What I did have was an MCSE, a couple of HP/Compaq certs, and a bunch of experience. I've been here five years.

If you really want to get certified, buy the MS Press self study books (they all come with eval copies of the software), and get reading. If you want to know if you're ready for the test, the practice exams from Self Test Software are pretty good.

Good luck.

Ben.

[Scumbag]

I got an MCP in windows 2000 server.

Ever since then, ive stuck on my resume that ive done my MCSE.

Not once has any employer asked to see my certificates.

Moral of the story, as long as you know your shit, lie your arse off about what certificates you have and no one will ever ask!

[dwarfthrower]

Moral of the story, as long as you know your shit, lie your arse off about what certificates you have and no one will ever ask!

Nor give a shit when you let slip that you haven't actually 'done' and MCSE.

[jasebert]

Remember though, never go up to a hot chick at the bar and say "Hey babe, I got my MCSE" because she will think it is a sexually transmitted disease. I learnt that the hard way.

[druid]

there is MCP for WinXP and MCDST (Cert Desktop Support). those would be closest. next up would be A+ cert.

I just read a short description about A+. Seems like someone with that should really know what's going on.

[Sasq]

Build Home Network, get the software, get the books, study yourself.
There are a few boards out there that deal with helping people not only with the exams, but general MCSE related stuff.

*MCSE 2K early achiever

[Snowball]

Nor give a shit when you let slip that you haven't actually 'done' and MCSE.


I tend to disagree, while i agree getting your MCSE actually means that you know anything. The company i work for like for techs to have their certs because if anything goes wrong with servers we can tell the customer that hey our techs have their certs and we did it the M$ way so it fucked up but we did it the correct way.

It is fucked i know but what can you do.

[Jimma]

I have ze CCNA but I got it for fun rather than for a job. If you're going for straightforward MS jobs you can find on seek then bullshit certs like those are the only way you'll get hired. If you're a top dog C programmer it doesn't matter, but not everyone is after a fancy pants job. I wouldn't go spending $5k to get an MSCE. That's a year out of a Computer Science degree.

[Scumbag]

Nor give a shit when you let slip that you haven't actually 'done' and MCSE.


sif im that stupid.

[dwarfthrower]

sif im that stupid.
Obviously... you don't have an MCSE.

[macgyver]

Yeah well I spent the time getting my MCSE over the last few years, much like everyone else has said, not for the learning, just for the bit of paper and credentials on my resume, although I will admit I did pick up a few things about larger MS networks that you are unlikely to learn unless you work for a very big organisation.

I think most employers arent necessarily looking for the MCSE for technical reasons, its also a case of proving that you can begin a course, learn the material and then replicate that in an exam environment, that means alot when in the real world as people need to be able to perform when the pressure is on (eg like in your exams) I would personally recommend anyone to get it if they are looking for a bit of paper at the moment on a reasonable budget, but I would also go self trained via the books and some web material you can dig up.

and anyone who compares uni to the 5k you are considering spending is mad - firstly you have to pay that 5k or more every year for 3 years and then you have to go to uni each day! so lets say $5k a year is 15k in fees and 3 years of no $35kpa+ income works out to be over a $100,000 investment in a uni course - so as you see there really is no comparison in costs of an MCSE compared to a uni degree.

good luck!

[Scumbag]

Obviously... you don't have an MCSE.

I really dont think anyone in my workplace has the competence to check up on that sort of thing.


Maybe so if I crossed over the dark side (the private sector) *shudder*

[brentwahn]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I'm glad to see that you understand that formalities mean quite a lot when applying for jobs. I have some experience, like I said, but not enough to make me shine amidst other candidates. I agree that most employers don't make certs a hard prerequisite, but rather see it as an extra 'tick' against a job candidates name.

After reading some of these things I went ahead with the $5k SeekLearning course today. I've logged in and the layout and system seem pretty cool. I have yet to use the 'mentor' feature: it's a button that calls for a 'mentor' who is a person that comes and answers your questions live about the topic you are currently undertaking.

For those of you who have done the MCSE (or similar IT certs): what type of course did you do, and how did you find it? Did you do an online one, or did you do a classroom based boot camp course?

Has anyone started an online course and not finished it because they didn't find themselves compelled to 'attend class'?

[Sasq]

Being honest i just 'picked up' the MS course books and the matching transcender exams. worked through the books on my home network.
As for motivation, I had other things in my personal life that depended on me getting the cert, so I had that covered.
Other online or distance education things however I have bomed out on. due to lack of desire to give up that much free time.
With the MCSE as your more or less broken down into 7 exams (i think it's still 7 - I live in a Linux world now) Your best bet is to target each exam. So first exam by X date, that weekend having a nice big piss up planned etc ;)
After you pass the first exam, you get a nice little card saying your a MCP, and a lapel pin, monthly spam to your inbox and the knowledge you have sold a little bit more of your soul to the devil.

As a side note, I planned my exams well, so I actually got my MCDBA at the same time as my MCSE. all those letters give them more ticks during the interview.

[Supreme_Cmdr]

my 0.02c for what it is worth.

Certs are a great way to differentiate yourself from all the other candidates going for a job. They make your resume stand out from all the other ones that just have Uni or experience. And often when applying for a job you go through non-technical people that are just searching for keywords on paper.

But they are no substitute for real experience and knowledge about the subject. So I would recommend not relying on just certs, try to back it up with some demonstrated experience, even if it is just arsing about with computers at home.

Personally I think certs show dedication to your chosen profession and show potential employers that you are able to do independent learning. And sometimes it is just fun to learn new things, maybe not :Stripteas fun but satisfying.

[cyberwired]

personally I think A+ is bs
MCSE etc gives a bit of skills to start off in the job and a lot of employers and even customers ask about it
I dont have MCSE or anything except a couple of level 3 certs I did with my mate now boss, another guy who worked with us had MCSE MCSA MCDBA which was like 11 exams he'd done or something, he could set up a server with active directory and exchange but when he came on board it was learning from the bottom from the first day!
we had to hire a new technician and I pretty much ignored anyone who had A+ cause the govt gives it free to stupid people on the dole (refraining from posting racist comments) and they can finish the course but they are useless as fuck
we had one guy come in for an interview who had done A+ and national cert in business computing level 4 or something, I suspected he was shit, it was confirmed when he answered questions (my boss gave him a written test to do) with answers like
Q. what is better solution for a customer, name brand like ibm or hp or a clone brand (pc you built yourself)?
A. intel p3 or p4
.....STUPID FUCK!

anyhow off on a tangent now
I'd advise do MCSE unless this seek thing is well known, MCSE is world wide known, seek is a job hunt website in nz (www.seek.co.nz)
experience is everything, but cert shows the managers....who knows what it shows

make sure you tell employers you play with computers at home if your going for a tech job, it shows you can learn by yourself etc

for the record I was a technician and just been promoted to Technical Service Manager/Coordinator (techs are below me now)

[brentwahn]

I did the A+ cert without undergoing any formal coursework. I just downloaded some practice questions/exams from the web and made sure I knew as much as I could.

I don't think that A+ is a total load of crap - it shows that a person has a basic understanding of simple computer usage. Nothing more, nothing less. It's just a basic indicator that a person knows the difference between a laser printer and a dot matrix, or how an OS differs from an application. Some parts of the test were really detailed: you still have to know about default IRQ assignments and a few other fairly technical things. So I wouldn't totally write it off, but it's nothing particularly special. The fact that someone can do the 2 exams after 3 hours of study in total testifies to the knowledge required.

That said, I reckon I would have struggled to pass if I hadn't studied those couple of practice exams.

When I say the Seek MCSE, I am talking about Seek being the trainer. The MCSE is a certification that is provided by Microsoft, but is only awarded after a person passes 7 unit exams in different (but closely related) areas. Those exams are conducted by only one certified company in Australia (and only a couple around the world I think), but the actual TRAINING part for the Microsoft certifications are done by arseloads of different companies.

Seek is one of the better known trainers in Australia (and NZ I assume), and pride themselves on also being a job search engine, so they claim to be able to aid better in job placement after completion of the programme. My question here has been about peoples experiences with either Seek, or other Microsoft certification companies.