Runners Resource

[kleph]

Benwah and I have started a pretty detailed PM conversation concerning running training and I wanted to start posting parts of it in the open forum in case anyone else has started running and could use the info. The interest in running in Girl.'s Getting Fit thread has been notable but I don't want to turn that thread into the ZGeek running thread inadvertently.

First off both Benwah and I keep running blogs. Mine is http://www.kleph.com/run/ I started it in January to keep track of my progress this year as I try and prepare to run the P.F. Chang’s Rock ‘n’ Roll Arizona Marathon next January.

Benwah's is Big Jogger (http://www.bigjogger.com/blog/). His mission? To be running whenever Big Brother is on the air. And it is for a good cause. He is running to raise funds for the Spastic Centre. So help him out if you can.

My intent is to make this thread a general resource for anyone interested in running so if you know a site - link it. Got some time-tested advice - share it. Need some support to get through the training doledrums - let us know.

[kleph]

I guess a good spot to start is with runnng blogs. I dig them. As I mentioned in the Getting Fit thread, I have some pretty specific reasons for this. To wit:

1) it shames you into running. there are periods when you simply don't want to run. it happens. but looking at those rapidly aging most-recent-posts kicks the guilt in big time.

2) it is a good record of your progress. sometimes you finish running and feel like shit and are convinced you haven't made squat for progress. it can really help to take a gander at your blog and review how much you have actually improved.

3) it helps with understanding injuries. running puts a lot of stress on the body and, at some point, your body is going to react. by recording the noticable aches and pains, you can sometimes catch injuries before they happen and track ones that occur to figure out how to remidy them.

4) it is good for getting advice. benwah has been nice enough to give my running blog an occasional gander and provide tips and suggestions for my training. i have also found it handy in some other similar situations.

it doesn't have to be fancy (i just took a blogger template and altered it a little) just enough to keep a record of your running.

a running blog entry should contain mileage, time, surface conditions, weather and an account of your run - warmup and warmdown included. it should also include information on any aches and pains that you experience.

for example, try a series of stretches and note them in your blog. next time try some different ones and do the same. maybe two weeks for now go back, look at the ones you did and compile a total of the ones that were effective.

There was an article (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-51-196-0-8939,00.html) on these blogs in Runners World Magazine awhile back. It focused more on the community building aspect of the trend, something I have not run into much. Mostly because there doesn't seem to be any general resource that can point you to these sites.

But the story had a few running blogs to start with.

One that I modeled my approach on was the weblog of Aussie runner Dave Bray (http://davebray.blogspot.com/) he has a breezy style that doesn't skimp on the technical aspects. A good read.

One that was a better resource was the blog of Alison Wade, http://running-blogs.com/alison/ has a bunch of links to other running blogs. Lotsa good info to be found there.

[Pagey]

do you have any useful infromation about starting a running routine?

for example, how many times per week and how far/long should you start running etc

any help would be greatly appreciated

[kleph]

number one. start slow. don't try and run a 45 minute 10K your first time on the pavement. your body may be able to do it but only because it doesn't realize what it is getting into. you will pay the next day AND the day after and you run the risk of an injury.

second. buy good shoes. it is the single best thing you can do to prevent injury and making your runs less of a chore. and making the investment in a good pair is a good motivation.

third. set a goal. lose ten pounds. run a 5K race. something. getting started can be rough as your body gets used to the punishment and starts to get stronger. having an objective to keep you focused helps a lot.

as for routine. tough to say. if you are way out of shape you might want to start with simply walking. it can be a good low-impact entryway into training. and it isn't a second-rate effort either. you find lots of advanced runners turn to it to recover to injury.

if you are in pretty good shape and want to start a regimine you might try what i suggested for stinky in the getting fit thread. begin running times instead of distance. 20 minutes is a good amount because it is enough to get the cardiovascular system working pretty good but not so much you are pushing the endurance levels you have yet to develop.

by not focusing on the distance you allow yourself to find your own pace. lots of beginners push themselves to run at unreasonable speeds at the start and it causes lots of problems later.

more important is rest. if you are just starting, don't attempt more than every other day. give your body the day off to recover. building muscle strength is a violent process. basically you rip apart your muscles so they can rebuild stronger. starting out, you have to give them a chance to do the second half of that process.

as benwah pointed out to me when i found my training was really taking a lot out of me, you know you are making progress when you see your recovery times start to shorten. but keep them long when you get started.

a good place to go for more info is thhe website for Runners World Magazine, it has a section (http://www.runnersworld.com/category/1,5034,s6-51-184-0-0,00.html) devoted to beginning runners.

[BlueBoy]

All good points so far.
Having a goal makes a huge difference to a running regime. Don't just say "I want to be able to run 10km" either. Be more specific. Say "I want to be able to run 10km by x date."

Most importantly: Keep hydrated! When I did the triathlon I was drinking before, during and after the race. I was actually surprised by how much I was drinking. I downed around a litre of water during the race and still needed more after I was finished.

[kleph]

there is one secret weapon that every runner has at their disposal these days if they choose to use it - music.

the advent of super light mp3 players has been a godsend to runners everywhere. now you can have all the music you need with you every run. this is really helpful when you are starting training and you need something to 1) set a good pace and 2) keep your mind off how tough going it may be.

the trick is to come up with a good mix of songs that you make your run dynamic; songs you can drone out to, get pumped up to, set an solid pace to. i use the following list set on shuffle and it's been working pretty well. i humbly solicit any and all suggestions on what needs to be added to this collection...


Pacific State - 808 State
Rebellion (Lies) - Arcade Fire
Blues for Brother George Jackson - Archie Shepp & Mondo Grosso
The Seven Pointed Star - Astralasia
Reverend Black Grape - Black Grape
This Modern Love [Remix] - Bloc Party
Flipside - The Breeders
Divine Hammer - The Breeders
S.O.S. - The Breeders
Piku - The Chemical Brothers
Where Do I Begin - The Chemical Brothers
The Private Psychedelic Reel - The Chemical Brothers
Chico's Groove - The Chemical Brothers
One Too Many Mornings - The Chemical Brothers
Life Is Sweet - The Chemical Brothers
The Sunshine Underground - The Chemical Brothers
Everybody Knows [David Holmes Remix] - Charles Fleischer
Supermarket [Super Clemek Remix] - Clemek
Never Let Me Down Again [Aggro Mix] - Depeche Mode
Intro - Doves
There Goes The Fear - Doves
Otis - The Duruti Column
Radio GaGa - Electric Six
Song For Lindy - Fatboy Slim
Santa Cruz - Fatboy Slim
First Down - Fatboy Slim
Michael Jackson - Fatboy Slim
Next to Nothing - Fatboy Slim
Right Here, Right Now - Fatboy Slim
Praise You - Fatboy Slim
Hallelujah [Club Mix] - Happy Mondays
Tokoloshe Man - Happy Mondays
American Eyes - Holland
Blues from a Gun - The Jesus and Mary Chain
War Cry - Joe Strummer
Everyday I Love You Less and Less - Kaiser Chiefs
Reason is Treason - Kasabian
Bend and Break - Keane
Knock Me Down - The La's
Release the Dubs - Leftfield
Song of Life - Leftfield
Black Flute - Leftfield
Ginger - The Lilys
Won't Make You (Sleepy) - The Lilys
Ball of Confusion [Live] - Love and Rockets
Once, A Glimpse - Maxïmo Park
Jesus Built My Hotrod - Ministry
God Moving Over the Face of the Waters - Moby
Voodoo Child [Remix] - Moby
Porcelain - Moby
Can You Dig It? [Steve Proctor Remix] - The Mock Turtles
Heresy - Nine Inch Nails
Climbatize - The Prodigy
Pretty in Pink - The Psychedelic Furs
Pulse - The Psychedelic Furs
Into You Like a Train - The Psychedelic Furs
Public Image - Public Image Ltd.
Music Kills Me - Rinôçerôse
Casino - Run Lola Run Soundtrack
Casino [Solid State Remix] - Run Lola Run Soundtrack
Running One [Large Mix] - Run Lola Run Soundtrack
Don't Rhyme No Mo [David Holmes Remix] - Sean Reveron
Nemesis - Shriekback
House We Used to Live In - The Smithereens
In the Aftermath - Spahn Ranch
Fools Gold [Grooverider's Mix] - The Stone Roses
I Am the Resurrection [Jon Carter Remix] - The Stone Roses
Expansion [Conspiracy Mix] - System Seven
Rez - Underworld
Two Months Off - Underworld
Born Slippery Nuxx [Deep Pan] - Underworld
City of Angels - Wang Chung
The Red Stare - Wang Chung
Black Blue White - Wang Chung
Every Big City - Wang Chung

[Benwah]

Some excellent points raised so far we have some experienced runners here!

Starting out

First of all, get yourself some good kit this has two effects, firstly it will make running more comfortable and help prevent injury and secondly, the money you spend will encourage you to run!

Shoes, there are very personal I suggest you get fitted by a professional I go to The runners Shop in Coogee, it's a bit of a hike and they have odd opening hours but Joe and Angela are the best and will take the time to fit the right shoe to you and give you a good price

http://www.runnersshop.com.au/

Clothing, well, whatever is comfortable and works well for you the most important thing being that your clothing doesn't make running a hassle so in summer just a pair of shorts (I run in runners 'short-shorts' but if your a little modest then stick to the stardard gym shorts) and a single or T-shirt. In winter I run in running tights and a long sleeve running shirt both made from breathable sythetic material I still sweat through it but it holds off the direct cold air

[Benwah]

At the very start, if you haven't done any running before consider taking up a program of walking for a few weeks to build up your fitness and just getting used to being out and on your feet for 30 mins.

Maybe three times a week for two week, just go for a 30 min walk.

Week three add 5 mins of jogging then 5 mins of walking don't worry if you can't jog the whole 5 mins just try your best if you get through 3 mins then walk for the next 7 then try for 5 mins again, do this three times in the week, leaving a day between efforts.

Week four, make it the same as week three, but on the third day try for 10 mins of jogging then 10 mins of walking then 10 mins of jogging again

Week five, three day of 10 mins of jogging then 10 mins of walking then 10 mins of jogging again

Week Six, Aim to jog for 20 mins non stop at least once this week, and continue the run 10 mins walk 10 mins approach

Week Seven, three times this week jog for 20 mins.

Week eight, three time this week jog for 20 mins, add one day where you try and 'go long' and jog for 30 mins.

If you want to add more milage add 10% a week from now on in for the first 3 months just work on time, and getting in consistent 3 days a week of jogging. After 3 months start setting goals maybe enter a short race and start to work on building up a better pace.

Most importantly remember the hardest part of running is actually lacing up your runners and getting out the door (although on an especially hard hill or cold rainy night you'll probably disagree) running is hard, but like anything hard the rewards are huge, running has saved my life I have no doubt.

[Benwah]

um... what is "kit?"

Running 'Gear' or 'Equipment' so in this case, shoes, shorts, and a cap! oh yeah, and good socks and jocks and if your a lady a good sports 'support'

[kleph]

... If you want to add more milage add 10% a week from now on in ...

this seems to be a consistant number no matter what level you are at. adding more than about 10 percent a week to your weekly mileage is essentially asking for an injury.

[kleph]

One thing I am pestering Benwah to go into detail about is diet. I posted a bit of what he has to say above but now I have a question. What do you think of this observation from the Runner's World story (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-51-196-0-8256,00.html) on the need for rest to improve performance?

If you don't eat within 15 to 30 minutes after every run, you risk delaying your recovery for up to 24 hours, which leads to diminished performance, says Leslie J. Bonci, R.D., of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center. Vanderbilt University researchers had athletes consume carbs and protein immediately after exercise or three hours later. Protein synthesis was three times greater in the group that refueled right away. Bonci recommends 50 grams of carbohydrates and 10 grams of protein postworkout. Yogurt and granola, or an energy bar and sports drink will do the trick.

[Benwah]

Recovery.

A big part of building running fitness is recovering well, not only does this help your body prepare you for the next effort, the better you recover the more value the workout you just did becomes! you didn't slog your guts out for nothing right?

First thing you want to do is warm down (cool down?) so this should be a gentle walk, of 5 or so mins stopping to stretch a few times maybe lying on your back with your legs against a wall/doorframe for a minute or two to force the blood out of your lower legs.

then have a drink of water and eat something sugary, I sometimes combine the both and have gatorade but a glass of water and some fruit work well, some people have milkshakes! whatever works well for you, in the first 15-20 mins after you exercise your muscles are more receptive to storing muscle glucose (which is the key to stamina, the more muscle energy you can store, the more stamina you have) then while you are still 'warm' work through your stretching routine, focus on the 'hammys, calfs and gluts. I do standing toe grabs, the good old kerb step calf stretch as well as the push against the wall stretch and the standing bend the leg and grab the foot glut stretch, look on the web or use Klephs links above for more detail.

Then have a shower/bath and make sure you eat a balanced meal within and hour of running with plenty of green veg and low Gi carbs, and keep up your fluid intake, a big mistake a lot of people make is to think that because your running you need to eat lots more, this isn't really the case, the fitter you are the more efficent you get. It's more about the quality of food to put it simply, you can't put diesel in a ferrari and the more like a ferrari you become, the more your body will crave good foods that have had minimal cooking and added 'crap'

If you are REALLY sore after running there are a few things you can do that are pretty extreme, but do help a lot. ICE BATHS being one, and deep tissue massage, another. but save these until you really need them because they are pretty full on. Ice baths are especially painful as you could imagine.

[Benwah]

One thing I am pestering Benwah to go into detail about is diet. I posted a bit of what he has to say above but now I have a question. What do you think of this observation from the Runner's World story (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-51-196-0-8256,00.html) on the need for rest to improve performance?

Sounds valid to me.

I generally focus on protein post workout when I've been swimming, maybe because I feel like it works me in a more 'muscular' way (I.E my arms and back) after a run I generally just stick to carbs alone mainly because even though obviously running works muscles I find it more about burning energy in my muscles and making that process more efficient rather than building muscle per-say but I could see how adding protein could help typically I eat a meal within an hour (sometimes sooner) that includes quality protein anyway.

Edit : I just read the rest of the article and a lot of what I said in my recovery. post is repeated there, so I must be on the right track.

I agree completely with making rest a priority, this is what I was talking about in my response to your recent blog entries Kleph, spacing out days of hard effort with days of recovery runs and days off completely is vital, especially when your Milage gets up there in the higher 50K a week mark.

[kleph]

in my case, i have held off doing more than every-other-day runs for that specific reason. my rough training goal is to reach the point where i am doing every day runs at the point i start the training program for the marathon.
ice baths make a lot of sense. ice is the runner's silver bullet to fend off injury but not for the reason you may think.

when you develop an injury, the body reacts by creating scar tissue at the microscopic level. one of the things you want to do is accellerate the process of getting rid of this. and the bloodstream is your cleaning device. it works fine but, when there is an injury, you want to help it along.

the logical thing is to add heat which will allow blood vessels and capallaries to expand and move more blood through the area. this is an error. you want to add ice, which will cause them to contract and push blood through at a higher pressure.

think of it like this. when you apply ice to your body it goes white as the blood vessels contract and the amount of blood in that area falls drastically. but then, after a few minutes your body realizes it needs to get blood there and pumps up the volume. it starts working harder to force the blood into the shrunken blood vessels and capallaries. your skin then starts to turn a rosy pink. it is this part that helps push the toxins and scar tissue out.

so if you have an ache that is persistant, ice it. put some ice in a towel and apply it to the area using direct pressure for between 20 minutes to half an hour. ice baths are just a method to do that for the entire legs - accellerating the natural recovery process exponentially.

[stinky]

Just got back from my morning run! I feel great. I ate a row of dark choc and a couple glasses of water about 10 minutes before I went. Ran pretty much the whole way, last time there was a hill that I walked up coz I convinced myself it was too hard, this time I just slowed right down took short steps and kept jogging. Got to the top and automatically started walking, I had to convince myself that I didn't need to walk and took off running again.

I walked for about 5 minutes at the end to cool down, and it felt really good. I could almost feel my leg muscles relaxing and warming down as I walked. Got back and had another couple of glasses of water.

A few times I found myself automatically start walking when I was getting out of breath or sore legs. I'll have to work on training that out of my system, obviously my years of lazyness taught my body to stop if I'm puffed :)

I ran the same distance, and a bit quicker ( i think ), but to be honest I'm not really at all concerned about distance and time right now, I'm happy enough to just push myself past my comfort zone. I figure If I keep doing that I'll naturally either speed up, or run further. If that hasn't happened in a couple of weeks then I'll probably need to start time-keeping, but I want to keep this casual to start with otherwise I'll scare myself off.

[kleph]

this isn't just laziness. your body tells you to slow down to protect itself. at this point you really don't know how to interpret what its telling you so there is no danger in erring on the side of caution. this is especially the case if you feel any type of sharp pain.

good example. when i recently started back i went running one really hot day and cut my run short because i knew i was risking heatstroke. a week later i ignored a nagging feeling in my little toe and finished the run. my reward? a blister that had burst leaving my toe raw. i was alert for the big danger but not the small one and, the truth is, both can mess you up.

mixing walking with your running is a relatively common practice. in fact, it's a strategy some runners use to handle big races like marathons.

sounds like you have made a good start. stick with it!

[The Avatar]

I've been hitting the treadmill very hard lately. I can't run on anything except a treadmill because of the numbers gauging the distance, incline and speed I'm running. Its the only way I can push myself. Actually, "pushing myself" is the wrong term. Its the only way that I sweat otherwise I'll slow down. Err, its hard to explain.

Anyway, yesterday, I went really bloody hard. 30mins of running up a full incline at 8.5 kph. Since then, I've had a weird gut stabbing pain that flashes on and off randomly. I think I may have ruptured something.

I want to go for another go today (as the spirit is very willing), but I'm not sure if I should in case I do more damage. Once I get on the machine, I hammer hyself each time, going beyond the brink of physical pain and exhaustion. I should be careful as I've come close to having a few asthma attacks. I don't get them usually, only when I work out really hard.

Stitches are also a giggle. I was on Voltaren when I first started, so I really didn't feel any pain at all and it seems to have set me up for doing damage to myself :)

But, When I first started running, I did okay (as I'm not that unfit). But, now, after 3 months, I've trippled my performance and lost heaps of weight. As Homer said: "I'm down to a C-cup" :D

[Benwah]

I have a love hate relationship with treadmills.

I love the luxury of being able to watch TV, listen to Music and monitor all the vital statistics while I run (speed, heart rate, incline, approx CAL burnt all that) I can go for ages on a treadmill I used to get kicked off all the time when I was a member of a gym (the now closed 'Vital' fitness in North Ryde)

I hate that because there is no wind (because you are essentially stationary) that even with a fan my sweat wouldn't dry and I'd end up looking like I'd just taken a bath... in my clothes and shoes!

I hate that I miss out on the changing seasons, having to deal with cold, heat and sometimes getting a perfect day is part of 'being a runner' to me, but thats very personal, so is enjoying finding hidden bush tracks and secret places to run to that people generally don't go very often because, well walking there would just take too long!

The only advice I will give regarding threadmills is, if you are training for any kind of road race or think that running on a treadmill is a good comparison to road running to understand that, running and treadmill are actually quite a bit different. When you are on a treadmill unlike running on the ground you aren't using you muscles to drive you forward across the ground you are actually using your muscles to jump up and down while the 'ground' (or in reality the belt of the treadmill) Whizzes past underneath you, a working example is my 5K time, it is slower on the road compaired to the treadmill.


Secondly, doing BIG KM on a treadmill can be dangerous and the chance of injury is a lot higher than road running, more than anything else it's the constant pace and surface and no changes in direction which means the exact same muscle, ligaments etc are repeating the same action and force over and over and over, which can lead to RSI and even Stress fractures.

So be careful on the treadmill don't overdo it or you might hurt yourself, try roadrunning The Av, you might like it more than you think. Maybe I should organise a Zgeek running afternoon when Bigjogger is finished? who would be in that? or even a weekly running meetup?

edit : took out my times, they aren't important to the content of this thread.

[The Avatar]

I'd give that a go. Mind you, you would leave me in the dust.

Personally, I love being drenched in sweat after a workout. It feels like I have achieved something, or at the very least, my internal issues have been converted into sweat and when I take the shirt off and throw it into the hamper, its like casting off my demons of sorts.

Problem is, once you're drenched in sweat, its very hard to try to make coversation with the cute ladies in the gym.

Hell, I'm still trying to work out a decent way to introduce myself without looking like a pervert. I can't do it without being sweat-soaked (because I feel like a fraud), and I can't do it once I am sweat soaked (because I feel grotty).

Anyway, I do understand the difference between a treadmill and real life running. When I do run outside, I stop much quicker and am puffed out. While, on the treadmill, I don't stop because the time I've designated for running isn't over.

The only time I stop on the treadmill is when my vision begins to darken. That's when I know I have to stop, or I'll be on the floor within seconds. Hmmm, not a very good mentality there huh? :)

[stinky]

Don't try to pick up at the gym ... it's always sleazy. Besides, if you've got time to admire the scenery you're probably not working hard enough :P

[Benwah]

I'd give that a go. Mind you, you would leave me in the dust.

Nah man, not if I'm training, I rarely run really really fast unless I'm doing speed work and certainly not with other people, my training pace is around five minute K's besides I'm not that quick, really my aim is always to go long. Okay, in another month or so I'll do a Zgeek running event invite, we can do one of my favourites, North Bondi, Bronte, Clovelly, Coogee, 'roobra and then back again via the cliffs if it's warm enough a swim/snorkle at Clovelly on the way back can be fun (but it means running with a snorkle which isn't so fun!

Anyway, I do understand the difference between a treadmill and real life running. When I do run outside, I stop much quicker and am puffed out. While, on the treadmill, I don't stop because the time I've designated for running isn't over..

You'd enjoy one of my personal all time favourites, run away from home until your totally worn out in one direction... you'll have to force yourself to get back home!

The only time I stop on the treadmill is when my vision begins to darken. That's when I know I have to stop, or I'll be on the floor within seconds. Hmmm, not a very good mentality there huh? :)

Just don't drop your ipod/walkman I've done at at 14KPH and the result... spectacular!

[Benwah]

Don't try to pick up at the gym ... it's always sleazy. Besides, if you've got time to admire the scenery you're probably not working hard enough :P

Yeah, I have to agree, People don't generally go to the gym to be hit on, thats what bars, clubs and supermarkets are for.

[kleph]

if you go to the gym to meet women, you are going for the wrong reason. you would probably do better to think of it this way... you are going to the gym to improve your ability to meet women in other places. seeing good looking women at the gym is your incentive to work harder.

but we are getting off topic...

yeah, music is a great tool to help you push past the "aw-fuck-it" stage you can reach on a road run. that's why i posted about my running playlist earlier.

it sounds like adding some road work would probably help you some but, if you do start taking to the road, remember to keep your expectations in line with what you can do. you are not going to run as far and as fast as the treadmill would lead you to believe. so don't push yourself to make them match.

[The Avatar]

if you go to the gym to meet women, you are going for the wrong reason. you would probably do better to think of it this way... you are going to the gym to improve your ability to meet women in other places. seeing good looking women at the gym is your incentive to work harder.

I'm going as a social outlet. I can't go to pubs/clubs/etc. because I shut down entirely and I make myself miserable. The gym works for me (even though I'm anti-social) because I can punnish the crap out of my body. It's the treadmill that I do the most damage to myself on. I usually don't stop until I'm about to collapse. And even then, I keep going just to be a bastard.


but we are getting off topic...


Indeed we are. Weren't we talking about Paris Hilton? ;)

yeah, music is a great tool to help you push past the "aw-fuck-it" stage you can reach on a road run. that's why i posted about my running playlist earlier.

Yeah I saw that, but its weird as each person reacts to music differently and also depending on what sort of mood they are in. I've gone hard at angry songs like "Smack my bitch up" by Prodigy, and other days it hasn't done a thing for me. While just the other day, I pushed my body beyond collapse listening to "Adam's song" by Blink 182.


it sounds like adding some road work would probably help you some but, if you do start taking to the road, remember to keep your expectations in line with what you can do. you are not going to run as far and as fast as the treadmill would lead you to believe. so don't push yourself to make them match.

Hmm, I don't know. One of the reasons I use the treadmill is also because I'm around other people. When I'm staring at some hot chicks arse (and by staring, I don't mean learing like a leacherous lumberjack, I mean quick discreet glances here and there), it helps to focus my mind on running and not start in with my evil thought process. I know this sounds bad, but I use their beautiful bodies to distract myself from myself. If I run alone, I'll feel alone and it will all go downhill from there.

[kleph]

my point is mix it up. if perving on the treadmill gets you through the workout... well, i'm not going to try and argue you out of it. but remember your goal is better fitness, not looking at eye candy. mixing it up will help you with the former.

one of the things i have tried to do with my music selection is mix it up some. i have a number of drone-on, just-get-the-rhythm songs as well as some high-energy pavement pounders. with the playlist on shuffle it alternates these helping me get a better workout overall.

[The Avatar]

Its weird for me, I mix my music selection up al the time, but very few times do I actually get the music right that it effects me in a positive way.

Cute ladies in spandex is something that will always tug at my heartstrings and get me going. That's what I'm there for. Honestly. Who gives a shit about fitness if you're by yourself. I'm there to get buff and rippling so that I'll feel better about myself and build up my confidence to such a point that I can carry on a decent coversation without feeling like I don't deserve it.

Once I get some booty from the gym (if it ever happens), I'll be even more chuffed and motivated. I don't go there to pickup, but I use the sight of the lovely ladies to lift my spirits.

Shit, re-reading it, I sound like the biggest pervert, but I certainly don't oggle or make them feel uncomfortable. I notice, glance, appreciate and look away. I've seen some fuckwit wogs go there and just blanket stare open mouthed at chicks until they leave because they're feeling so uncomfortable. I'm so not like that.

[kleph]

well, to be honest, from this point on i'd prefer keeping the discussion to running if you don't mind.

[kleph]

Okay, in another month or so I'll do a Zgeek running event invite, we can do one of my favourites, North Bondi, Bronte, Clovelly, Coogee, 'roobra and then back again via the cliffs if it's warm enough a swim/snorkle at Clovelly on the way back can be fun (but it means running with a snorkle which isn't so fun!

you know, this would be an awesome Global ZMeet event.

[Benwah]

you know, this would be an awesome Global ZMeet event.

For sure, everyone would need to take a day off work because on the weekend in summer the path is really really packed out with people, same with clovelly snorkling spot (although Gordons bay around the corner is usually a bit quieter)

Details of the route (http://www.frogandtoad.com.au/nsw/sydney/bondi/index.html)

images (http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&q=bondi%20to%20coogee%20walk&sa=N&tab=wi)

[kleph]

ok, consultation time. this is aimed at the guru but i am open to anyone's input. i am currently trying to piece together a schedule for my marathon traning. i whipped together this basic schedule that i want to use as a starting point.

i figure an 18-week schedule is probably best. here is a preliminary schedule i culled from a couple of different sources...

http://forum.zgeek.com/gallery/files/2/0/1/trainsked.gif


the green day is the offical start of training. sundays will be my "long run" day and the grey number to the side is that distance (all distances are in miles). the black number is the total miles for that week. mondays are off days.

keep in mind, the next two months will be preparation work for this training regimine. i will probably up the mileage on all of these as i figure out what i want.

what i like about this schedule: the taper off at the tend, the 18-weeks, the gradual increase of mileage with periodic pull-backs. the types of input i need are for the following types of questions; what type of speed work should i include? how about hills? cross training, where does it fit? i will also include at least two 10k races in this schedule as well, so when would be best?

[stinky]

Occasionally when I run ( or ride ) I get this really sharp headache just behind my left eye. It will start within a few minutes of running and then remain for hours after ( dulls down to a dull ache after a while ). I don't think it's hydration based as it comes on so quickly. Usually I just try to ignore it and keep going and I don't want to take pain killers before I run...

Any ideas ?

[kleph]

yow, that could be stress related. if it keeps up after a few runs that's probably not good and you should see a doctor.

my guess would be that as you start to run, your bloodstream starts working differently and the bloodvessels in your head haven't gotten used to that yet. but that's a wild-ass guess from someone who has no level of expertise.

and, no, pain killers or anti-inflamatory medecines are not a really good idea when you exercise. typically the pain associated from an injury comes from inflammation. so these pills would dampen that effect making it more difficult to discern an actual injury. and if that happens you would more likely suffer a more acute injury by continuing to exercise beyond the point where your body knows to stop.

[stinky]

let's hope it goes away after a few more runs ...

It's 4 hours after my run and it's still nagging in my head, as soon as I walk up the stairs or anything else that requires even mild exertion it starts to hurt again.

Knowing my luck it's a tumor or something :P

[kleph]

i doubt that. but jumping back to strenuous physical exercise is not easy for your body. you might need time to adjust. if it keeps up, keep exercising but cut back. and, obviously, see a doctor.

[stinky]

yeah, if it's still doing it after a few more runs I'll definately see a doctor, no way I could keep running if it keeps going.

[kleph]

and while i may be taking the conventional route for my training, don't feel constrained folks. there's tons of alternatives for you. so if normal running is too bland why not try nude running (http://www.cybernude.com/nuderuns/) or backward running (http://www.backward-running-backward.com/)?

[Benwah]

keep in mind, the next two months will be preparation work for this training regimine. i will probably up the mileage on all of these as i figure out what i want.

what i like about this schedule: the taper off at the tend, the 18-weeks, the gradual increase of mileage with periodic pull-backs. the types of input i need are for the following types of questions; what type of speed work should i include? how about hills? cross training, where does it fit? i will also include at least two 10k races in this schedule as well, so when would be best?

This schedule is excellent indeed (and similar to what I was trying to explain... badly) the pull-backs being key to help your body heal whilst getting your body used to having the milage really 'up there'

Speedwork - Replace The day after your rest day with speedwork, aim for 60% of the milage indicated in the training plan, as your doing a marathon your repeat would be typically pretty long, so a combination of 500M and 1KM repeats. 500M repeats should be at 80% effort (where 100% is a good sprinting speed) and your 1KM repeats should be around 60%-70% of max effort.

Hills - I love hills and usually make up most positions when I'm going up Hill being able to charge the hills is a great bonus. Maybe on odd weeks replace speedwork with hill work, don't overdo it as running hard up a long hill puts a lot of strain on your lower legs, find a good long (400-500M) hill and do 5 repeats to start with at 60% effort if you can hold that speed, work up to 10 repeats, while you are doing it you will find it hardwork, but especially as your milage gets up there you might start thinking your not getting enough of a workout... but you are, and a specific workout at that which you'll call on when your racing and you hit a hill.

Cross Training - I think it has its place, especially arm work and swimming, but don't worry about it at this stage the only thing that will make you a better runner will be just that, more running. If you are feeling a little restless on your rest days go for a 20 min walk or go push some weights around or have a gentle cycle.

[Benwah]

Occasionally when I run ( or ride ) I get this really sharp headache just behind my left eye. It will start within a few minutes of running and then remain for hours after ( dulls down to a dull ache after a while ). I don't think it's hydration based as it comes on so quickly. Usually I just try to ignore it and keep going and I don't want to take pain killers before I run...

Any ideas ?

What is your eyesight like, do you have 'bad' eyes, or one eye weaker than the other? you might also have an underperforming tear duct, or what I have, I'm mildly allegic to the bacteria in my eyes, so If I don't wash them out I get sore eyes especially when I sleep long on the weekend (sometimes I have to ice it)

[kleph]

This schedule is excellent indeed (and similar to what I was trying to explain... badly) the pull-backs being key to help your body heal whilst getting your body used to having the milage really 'up there'

my problem is that it is clearly not sufficent mileage for my level. i'm in a weird spot, training wise. i haven't run at this level for... yipes, decades. but i do have the experience of years past and my general fitness level is high. that puts me somewhere between novice and intermediate in most training regimines but i am not sure which suits me better.

i clearly have to put more miles in than this but i am not sure the three-20-mile-runs in preparation regimine is wise either. although i have a target time and a dream time i really don't think over-emphasising speed work that advanced training schedules deal in would be a wise idea.

for the moment, it is irrelivant. i am just continuing this conditioning jag. but i need to sort out these issues in the next month or so in order to be ready to deal with the actual training for this race.

[stinky]

nah i got great eyes ... never had to wear glasses or anything ... I don't think it's an eye thing, just it's behind the eye that my head hurts.

[Benwah]

my problem is that it is clearly not sufficent mileage for my level. i'm in a weird spot, training wise. i haven't run at this level for... yipes, decades. but i do have the experience of years past and my general fitness level is high. that puts me somewhere between novice and intermediate in most training regimines but i am not sure which suits me better..

Hmmm, yes, looking at those totals I can see what you mean now, 40 miles as a peak is a little low, you certainly aren't a begineer and you seem to be responding well to the milage you are at right now.


i clearly have to put more miles in than this but i am not sure the three-20-mile-runs in preparation regimine is wise either. although i have a target time and a dream time i really don't think over-emphasising speed work that advanced training schedules deal in would be a wise idea...

As long as you didn't overdo the 20 mile runs and try and run them too fast I don't think it would be a problem, you could always dial it back if the first one didn't go well (or more specifically the recovery didn't go well)


for the moment, it is irrelivant. i am just continuing this conditioning jag. but i need to sort out these issues in the next month or so in order to be ready to deal with the actual training for this race.

Yeah, I think for the first 3-4 weeks it's going to be a matter of seeing how much your body can handle, much as it may frustrate you, rather than doggedly sticking to a concrete milage plan, I'd say start with this guide and then consider adding miles if it all goes well? what do you think?

[kleph]

i'll pencil in a new schedule later this week.

[Benwah]

How do all you other runners cope with the cold and dark?

[kleph]

cold isn't a problem. running warms you up fast. dark is. that's a safety issue in south america i ain't willing to tempt. between muggers and insane drivers, it is just taking your life in your hands. in the us, though, i dig predawn runs. just put on the reflective gear, baby.

[stinky]

I'm running at 5:30am, so it's *just* light enough to see enough to run. I always wear a white shirt so it's very visible ( although cotton so I usually wear a singlet underneath it so i don't get too damp.

For the cold I succumbed and bought myself a pair of running tights. I had been thinking about getting some and a week or so ago happened to find some at K-Mart of all places so grabbed a pair there as it was during a 15% off sale as well. Cost me $40 from memory. They keep me plenty warm once I get moving. As an added bonus they've got some white/reflective lines etc on them for a bit of extra visibility.

[stinky]

update on my running:

After the really bad headaches on monday and a niggly right calf I skipped tuesday for recovery, Went for a cycle on wednesday and only got about 500 metres before the cursed headache hit me hard. I gave up and rode straight back home.

This morning before I ran I took a Voltaren ( anti-inflamatory tablet ) just before I ran and sure enough got my headache after about 5 minutes, after another 5 or 10 it faded right away thanks to the drugs. I was still able to feel my calfs get sore towards the end of the run, so hopefully the Voltaren is an option to control the headaches.

On the headaches, I've had really stiff/tight neck and shoulders for the past month or so and I *think* I can feel them originate from there and move into my head so I'm booked in for a sports massage today to see if they can help my neck out to see if that helps with the headaches. If that doesn't help I'm off to the quack.

[kleph]

i can't stress enough that pain killers or anti-inflamatory medicines are not a good idea during exercise. you are increasing your chances at an injury substantially. but the headache issue is clearly a serious problem. i would suggest seeing a doctor and getting it sorted asap.

remember, you are putting stresses on your body that it really isn't used to and it will take some time to acclimate. moreover, you are probably discovering a lot of problems that have developed that you didn't notice before because you never pushed yourself.

it wasn't until i started running that i found out my left leg was slightly shorter than my right and that, to compensate, my pelvis had become slightly twisted. but his problem was the source of lower back pain i have had for years.

[Benwah]

Running Tights look silly, but they really seem to help me a lot, I wear a bright Red cap too, and if I'm running in the bush my LED headlamp.

I'll second that warning from Kleph, pain killers in tablet form or via a localised gel are a no-no, the body has pain signals for a reason and without them you can do all sorts of major damage without even knowing that ordinarily you body would stop you from doing.

Just on painkillers, another recovery tip, if you find you are really really sore to help reduce the inflamation in your muscles and joints a couple of advil or nurophen can help, make sure you take them with plenty of water and if you can with food. Don't overdo them, they are a last resort if you find that stretching, and an Ice bath really aren't helping.

Edit : Zgeek Team T-shirts, sounds good to me

[stinky]

I know pain killers are bad before exercise but I am not pushing myself hard until this stuff is sorted out so hopefully it's minimised.

Just got back from the massage, the masseuse said that my neck and shoulders were really tight and gave them a thorough working out. Gave me a bunch of stretches to do around that area too.

I will see a Doc if it continues into next week.

[stinky]

What Socks ?? my cheapo cotton socks just aren't cutting it. What sort of socks do you fellas go for?

[Benwah]

Bonds thickish cotton sports numbers and holeproof sports jobbies and a few pairs of 'proper' brooks running socks.

Good socks are so important, also a secret weapon of mine to ward of blisters is using talc or dry french clay on your feet before you put your socks on, it helps a lot.

[kleph]

you simply cannot spend enough on your feet. go to a good shoe store and get the super pamby breathable, anti-persperant, fueled by rocket science socks. you want them to be so comfortable that you feel you need to orgasm and take a nap when you try them on.

i looked on a few running sites yesterday and couldn't find anything on your headaches, stinky. i did a more general google search and came up with a few entries on exercise headaches (links below). the good news; they are not a serious danger to your health. the bad news; no-one is sure of their cause or cure.

Most exertional headaches are caused by temporary changes associated with exertion and disappear with rest and recovery. Blood pressure can rise with exertion, vascular pressure can build during the maximum effort involved in activities like rock climbing or weight lifting, and headaches can arise from neck strain.

i do know that i have had ocular migranes (http://www.americanrunning.org/displayindustryarticle.cfm?articlenbr=2254) for years due to pressure in my neck and back. what is this? when you lose a portion of your vision and then see an shiny jagged flashing design in part of your field of vision. there is no "pain" associated with the headache although it is usually accompanied by a weird feeling of exhaustion.

when i got started running again, one of the things i did was start to see a chiropractor. she said the situation of my spine was so screwed up following years of stress, bad posture and tension that it almost appeared like i had scoliosis. and she said it was probably one reason i would have these incidents.

running, obviously, acerbated this situation. so she got medival on my ass and i cut back my initial running efforts. after a few weeks i could really notice the difference. since that time i have had a few of these headaches but nowhere near the rate i used to get them.

probably the biggest problem for you, stinky, is sticking with your exercise push despite this obstacle. it's tough getting started and creating that routine to go out and run past a handfull of weeks or so. and that might be impossible given this problem. you might try swimming or biking and see if it eases your pain but allows you to keep going out and getting the cardiovascular system a workout. and, hey, don't overlook just plain walking.

http://healthtips.bigfitness.com/exercise/14924.php
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s233.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NHF/is_9_18/ai_86707142
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0NHF/is_3_20/ai_86649593

[stinky]

Thanks Kleph, I'd found that abc.net.au link a few days back. I still plan to chase it up medically, not too fond of google-diagnosis, but it's good to read that it's probably not gonna kill me. I've tried cycling and get the headache then too, Because I have to cycle heaps further to feel the same kind of workout I find it better to run and get it over with.

[Benwah]

In terms of effort and benefit you have to cycle 4 times as far as running to get a similar workout.

[kleph]

the problem: blisters.

solutions?

[stinky]

A couch and TV? :P

My first thought was incorrect sized shoes or dodgy socks. Maybe try using talc on your feel before running? might help keep them dry and provide a dry lubricant between your sock and foot which could help reduce the rubbing.

[Benwah]

Talc or french clay dust your feet in it and put a little in your shoes.

Also it helps to build up a good layer of tough skin from years of getting blisters, bursting them and running on them anyway!

[stinky]

After reading good things about them I've upgraded my running tights to these Linebreak (http://www.linebreak.com.au/products/male_velocityTights.html)

They're an excellent fit and I've only run in them once so far so too early to comment on the effectiveness on the compression side of things reducing recovery time etc. Can definately feel the compression.

It was a tossup between them and skins, the linbreak were $40 cheaper and reviewed just as well so I went with them.

[kleph]

i tried foot powder today and, while it didn't get any worse, it didn't seem much of an improvement either. what about the other direction, adding something like petroleum jelly or something?

and how are the headaches, stinky?

[kleph]

http://coachlevi.com/blog/

http://running-blogs.com/alison/

http://www.coolrunnersg.blogspot.com/

http://nyflygirl.blogspot.com/

http://heartbreakhill.blogspot.com/

http://fit.k482.com/

http://antenna.typepad.com/godeepultra/

http://www.london2newyork.co.uk/

http://thelonelyrunner.blogspot.com/

http://www.longestmile.blogspot.com/

http://buglab.typepad.com/marathon/

http://charronrunning.blogspot.com/

http://patricknolan.com/

http://jonroig.com/

http://sam92077.blogspot.com/

http://runnersblog.blogspot.com/

http://runbloggerrun.blogspot.com/

http://richardstanford.com/fitness/

[Benwah]

hmmm, Talc always works for me, I've heard that lubricating the area can make it worse because it increases the movement and thus the friction and heat (which causes the blisters)

Really it's all about reducing the movement (which is why the Talc works for me, it keeps my feet dry and because of that the sweat doesn't make everything move around)

But thinking mechanically lubricating the area would make the movement smoother? like inside an engine?

So now I don't know what to think!

[stinky]

The headaches seem to be under control. My last run I did without pain killers and it was only a mild ache so could be ignored easy enough. Will report back tomorrow after running.

[kleph]

Dug up a pretty good runner's world article (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-78-79-0-437,00.html) on the subject of blisters.

Here are their tips:

Moisten your feet. Just like sweaty skin, dry skin is also more prone to friction. Use skin creams and lotions liberally on a daily basis to maintain proper moisture.
Choose blister-free socks. Synthetic socks wick moisture away from the skin. Cotton may be lighter, but it retains fluid. Socks with reinforced heels and toes also help reduce friction.
Run with slick skin. Coat your feet with Vaseline or another lubricant before you run. Or use Second Skin, a padded tape that stays on even when wet. Both methods form a protective shield between your skin and sock.
Double up. Wear two pairs of socks so the friction occurs between the two socks, rather than between the sock and skin. If your shoe now feels too tight, go up a half-size as long as your foot doesn't slide around, making blisters a possibility.
Wear shoes and socks that fit. Shoes that are too small will cause blisters under the toes and on the ends of the toenails. There should be a thumbs width of space between the toes and end of the toe box. Your socks should fit smoothly, with no extra fabric at the toes or heels.


Which is all well and good but doesn't really go that far to help me with my particular problem. Turns out I got HAMMER TOES! (Yay! I'm a freak!) And the position of my little toe against the side of the second toe is the problem.

[Benwah]

So I said Talc to dry OUT your feet, how wrong was I!

Hammer toes? sounds like something very 1980's ;)

[kleph]

i have the impression the jury is out on the best strategy to handle the problem.

[stinky]

STOP Hammer toes!

[stinky]

After thinking I'd kicked the headaches I got one this morning in force. Was the worst I've had so far and I ended up cutting the run short and limping home.

Seeing a doc tonight.

[stinky]

Saw the quack last night. He said they're probably cluster headaches brought on by exertion. sounds pretty much like what we were thinking. I've got to go in for a CT scan just to be sure it's nothing more sinister.

When I go back with the test results he'll talk about what we can do to reduce them. In the meantime he's told me to take nurofen before I exercise and to just take it easy so I don't damage myself while running on drugs.

I took 2 nurofen and cycled for about 12kms this morning and was all good.

[kleph]

had a half hour run scheduled today but skipped it due to an ache in the outside of my right foot. as i have ramped up the miles, these sore spots have been showing up as well. my concern is having them blossom into actual injuries.

i think new shoes is the solution but i'll have to wait a bit to regail you all with the awe inspiring story currently developing on that front...

[kleph]

ok, breaking training. it looks like, due to work, i am going to have to go a bit more than a week without any running at all. whats the best way to go about this?

i dug up some info that says you start to lose your fitness level as soon as two days after your last effort. moreover, you will require two days of training to make up for each lost day after that.

any truth to this? any way to belay it?

[kleph]

possible marathon training schedule template...

http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/article/0,5033,s6-51-56-0-6946-4-2X4X6X8-5,00.html

[stinky]

Are you able to squeeze in any sort of exercise? Even situps/pushups etc could help keep the fitness levels up and can be done pretty much anywhere.

[kleph]

it will be an altitude issue. i am going from sea level to more than 3,360 meters. exercise is not advisable.

[stinky]

oh... I see!

Maybe spend the week concentrating on stretching/flexibility? It should be soft enough to do at high altitude... i think?

[kleph]

nah. between the altitude and work it just ain't gonna be possible. which isn't to say i am going to be idle since i expect to be walking quite a bit. normally i would figure no problem but, in this case, i am concerned about keeping my weekly mileage up.

[stinky]

Great news. The doc said he found nothing in my CT scans, so either I don't have a brain, or I have one and it's perfectly fine. The diagnosis is now "Cluster Headaches" or "Migraines" brought on by exertion. I've got some anti-migraine drugs which should *hopefully* take care of things.

[kleph]

awesome. i suggest taking it slow and letting your body acclimate to the increased exertion. play around with your diet too, and see if that affects it as well.

[King_Crud]

I'm going to buy a new pair of running shoes this Friday, any recommendations? I hear that New Balance are pretty good and was going to check them out. At the moment I use a pair of Adidas cross trainers. I don't want to spend a huge amount of cash, idealy less than $100 but absolutely no more than $150. These would be used purely for running.

[kleph]

if you intend to put some serious miles on these, you should find a specialty store that can examine your footfalls and determine what shoe is best for you.

it really isn't a case of picking up a shoe someone else said is good anymore because everyone's feet and running style is different. today's shoe market reflects that. they make shoes of every different type, strength, durability and weight to cater to the wide range of needs individual runners demand.

for example. i have pretty weak ankles and tend to overpronate (pronation refers to the amount your foot twists inward when you make contact with the ground. everyone does it, just to a different degree) i also have issues with my ilitobial band that helps keep my knee working the way it should as i run. as a result, i need a shoe that has a lot of motion control.

so i run in asics foundation gels (http://www.kleph.com/run/archive/2006_01_22_archive.html). but if you pronate less, i assure you, you won't want these shoes since, at 12.5 ounces, they are a bit on the heavy side for most folks.

you might want to give this article (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-52-167-0-1038,00.html) from runner's world magazine a read. it gives a lot of good advice but the bottom line is you need to find a runner's shoe store that has folks who know what they are talking about to help you. (in fact, the whole shoes & gear (http://www.runnersworld.com/channel/0,5032,s6-52-0-0-0,00.html) section may be worth your while to check out)

if you need help finding a good store, i suggest you call one of the local running clubs and ask them where is good and if they can help. here is a list (http://www.coolrunning.com.au/clubs/nsw.shtml) for NSW clubs via cool running.com.

you can head over to running shoes.com (https://www.runningshoes.com/index2.cfm) and browse on what is out there (shoes are now seasonal and different types typcally aren't made consistently more than 18 months at a time)

lastly, shoes are, by far, the most important investment you are going to make in terms of your running. the right shoes mean the difference between running well and injury. choose the wrong ones and you can fuck yourself up right quick. as a result, don't go cheap. buy the best ones you can and pay what it costs. your wallet will whine but not as much as if you had to pay for treating an injury and, oh my, will your feet ever thank you.

[Benwah]

Depends on your feet really and your running gait.

http://www.ultrunr.com/foottype.html

Here's my experience.

Like most people I'm a mild pronator, and Brooks Adrenaline GTS 6 suite me pretty well, Asics 2090s (they might be called 2100s now?) are a good shoe for me too (you might be able to find 2080s or even 2070s online for cheap all of them are good if your feet are like mine). both of these are just a tad over 150 for the latest models depending on where you go I haven't had any experience with New Balance but two of my running mates run in them and love them. Say away from Nike and Reebox (especially the Air sole type) they are way too cushy and lend themselves to 'float' when your foot strikes which can damage your knees, also avoid the big big dollar shoes like high end Asics 'Katayano' sp? and all those $200+ shoes they are heavy and overpriced.

Here's a suggestion, REBEL sport will beat any advertised price by 10% so find a good price online, print out the page and take it in.

I change shoes every 600K if I'm mostly doing road running (less in summer when I run in the bush more) I can actually feel them start to go because my legs get sore after runs more, good shoes are really important especially if you run on concrete and roadbase lots. In saying that, I've seen people running pretty sharpest pace half marathons in Dunlop KT26s! people with a naturally neutral running style and foot strike can get away with stuff like that! good luck with it.

Edit : Kleph is right of course, it is best to get checked for shoes if you can, the best in Sydney that I know of is Joe and Angela at http://www.runnersshop.com.au/ in Coogee, hard to get to unless you drive (although you can run there from Bondi if you feel like a nice Sunday arvo run! dump your old shoes and run back!)

[King_Crud]

Wow, thanks for the info. How do i find out about pronating?

[kleph]

here (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-52-0-0-7727,00.html) is an article on the subject.

remember, pronation isn't a bad thing. it allows your foot to be flat on the ground while supporting the entirety of your weight. if you didn't pronate, you would be unable to run at all. what you want to do is buy the shoe that is right for the way your foot naturally pronates, that's all. buy the wrong ones, and your shoes are fighting with your feet to do what your biomechanics require.

[Benwah]

Well, my shoes wear on the outside edge of the heal and that means I pronate a little, the forefoot wears even.

But yeah, Go and see Joe and Angela at The Runners Shop, they will watch you walk around, they might ask you to jog a bit and will tell you if you pronate, over-pronate or are neutral.

I think there is another runners shop in Edgecliff that is supposed to be pretty good (and they are on a train line) but I haven't been there myself.

[kleph]

the shop i go to in arizona, performance footwear (http://www.performancefootwear.net/), have a treadmill and video-camera setup that allows them to film your footfalls. reviewing it in slow motion shows exactly what your foot and ankle are doing in vivid detail.

[kleph]

and beware shoe lingo. "excessive motion" is the term shoe manufacturers use to describe pronation. the idea is to make it sound bad so their shoe appears to be a solution. like i said above, pronation isn't necessarily "bad" but you may need a specialized shoe for your particular gait.

the best way to battle this nonsense is to simply do your homework and find a retailer you can trust.

[King_Crud]

Yeah, I think I'll go to this place in Clovelly on Saturday, shouldn't be too much of a hassle to get to, although this is the week my car decided to pack it in so I'll have to get the bus.

I'd rep you for the info kleph but apparently I've given you some loving recently.

[kleph]

no worries, just do what you gotta to start cranking out the miles.

[kleph]

looking at some of the HUGE fields set for many us marathons, i was feeling a bit down that completing a feat like this isn't that exclusive anymore. i mean more than 90,000 people applied to run the NYC marathon and, through a lottery, the field will be whittled down to 50K.

but it turns out the completion rate is much much much smaller than those types of numbers suggest. first, NYC is - by far - the largest marathon in the us and up to 20 percent of the field are international runners.

but more to the point, entry numbers aren't a real guage of the number of folks who finish marathons, the race i plan to run, the Rock n' Roll Marathon in Arizona touted more than 30k entrants last year. but when you shave off the half marathon, no-shows, those that dropped out and the walkers that didn't meet the 7-hour finishing time you find that only 7,166 people finished this race.

(only 36,872 of the 50K who entered the NYC last year completed the course)

in fact, there were a total of 380,000 marathon finishes in the us total last year, making it still pretty damn close to the one-in-a-thousand it used to be (particularly when you consider the multiple entries that number includes).

it's clearly going to be a rough slog for me to reach the goal of running 26.2 miles at a respectable pace come january but every little bit of motivation really helps. and considering how uncommon the feat is to do can be one more little thing to get me out on the sidewalk those days i want to blow off my training.

anyhow, lots of nifty data in this report (http://www.marathonguide.com/features/Articles/2005RecapOverview.cfm) if you are interested.

[Benwah]

I use that attitude to motivate me all the time Kleph, sure there are loads of runner that are faster than me, but so what I'm a better runner than the vast majority! really gives me a boost, even if it's a bit of an ego thing.

[kleph]

and now, i finally reveal, my secret weapons for training!

http://forum.zgeek.com/gallery/files/2/0/1/secretweapons.jpg

[King_Crud]

My last run in my shitty shoes before I get some new ones on Saturday. It was a good run too.

[kleph]

i so envy you. my feet envy you.

[kleph]

After almost six months of regular running it had become apparent in recent weeks that my shoes have gone about as far as they can take me. I am way past the four months or six hundred miles whichever comes first cutoff and it really has become apparent. As I have started putting in 30-plus mile weeks my feet and lower legs have become the repository of a menagerie of different aches and pains after every run.

So, one weekend last month I went looking for some new shoes. I figured it wouldn't be simple but I had a clearer idea where to look this time. What I didn't contend with is that size 13 shoes do not exist in Peru. None. Nada. The largest size running shoe I could find was an 11 and don't even think about finding one with decent motion control. So after visiting no less than a dozen different shoe stores over a two-day span it became clear. I was SOL.

Then I remembered that the awesome folks at Performance Footwear in Tempe, Arizona had a record of my shoe purchase. Not just a record, the brand, the size and even the other shoes I tried out and liked as well. So I got the phone number and rang them up to see if they thought buying a pair blind using my info was advisable. After a nice chat on the pluses and minuses, we agreed it was about the only option I had.

So they put a pair of the shoes on layaway and my mom went and picked them up a few days later.

Now, instead of everything working fine from this point in as you might expect, this is where everything rolled up into a tight little bar of fubar.

The woman at the store suggested the shoes be mailed separately. Shoes are a common target for thieves and the postal service to Peru is not the best. I asked a few of my friends here about it and they agreed. So I told mom to use two packages and so she went to the mail store and they took care of it. All I had to do was wait a week or two, they said.

Well, the first one showed up pretty quick, less than a week later. But it seems the Peruvian authorities were concerned it might contain all sorts of important and valuable stuff so the customs people flagged it. I got an official piece of paper saying I had to go down to their office.

So I did, expecting the worst and Lordy, I got it. It was a burecratic hell on top of the endless wait in line. The whole process too more than two-and-a-half hours. There were six service windows in the little office and I had to visit each of them at least twice not to mention a discussion with the office manager at one point. And, in the end, it was not even a taxable item.

Quick side note, my cousin mailed off a box of gels, drink powders and energy bars about this time. This package is arguably taxable since they could say I was trying to sell it due to the quantity of items. Anyhow, after one week a nice gentleman rings my doorbell and hands me the package. No problem.

So then I wait.

And I wait.

And I wait.

I passed the 10-12 business day mark last week which was the outer window for it to arrive and I still wait. I finally just assume the shoe did get stolen or the idiots in the post office misfiled it somewhere. I gird myself to get to know my good friend pain even better over the next few months.

But then, today, another guy came to my door. Not the nice delivery guy, no, this was an asshole with the piece of paper saying this package was flagged by the customs people too and I have to go pick it up.

So I merrily saunter down there - screwing up my entire schedule for today, mind you - and prepare for the worst. But this time, since it was completely ludicrous to go through this whole farce once again for one shoe, I wasn't going to simply go with the flow. Oh no.

The first time I got any static - it turned out they wanted me to go find a copy shop and make a photocopy of my identification this time - I went ballistic. Complete ugly American. I ranted. I raved. I waved papers. I mixed English curse words with choppy Spanish. The security guard even came over out of concern. I was a complete and total asshole.

Needless to say, after that I had no more problems. I went down the street and got the copy they wanted, came back and gave it to them and they got me out of there damn quick. Twenty minutes, total.

So, anyhow, now I have two new shoes to start running in. I am really hoping that the change, allied with the week off coming up takes care of my recent problems and I can get back to my normal training schedule.

http://forum.zgeek.com/gallery/files/2/0/1/asics2_509439.jpg

[Benwah]

New Asics! awesome.

Inca cola would make you run faster just by looking at the packaging! dang!

[kleph]

oh yeah, i dig my asics. and inca kola is my after run drink. the coca leaf drink is the before run drink.

[kleph]

new shoes = happy feet

http://forum.zgeek.com/gallery/files/2/0/1/happyfeet.jpg

[King_Crud]

Well I went to the Runners Shop in Clovelly as recommended by Benwah. Good call, the guy there knows his shit. I have very hugh arches (i wear arch support normally) and apparently quite wide feet. Because of the arch support my foot comes down on the outside, so apparently this needed to be rectified. I tried on a few pairs of shoes and finally ended up with a pair of Asics GT-2110(4E). They make my feet feel a lot flatter and that's a good thing. Now I can't wait to go for a run but this weather is shitty.

http://forum.zgeek.com/gallery/files/2/0/1/TN606.jpg

Ad they were only $175. I was expecting to be paying $200+

[Benwah]

Well I went to the Runners Shop in Clovelly as recommended by Benwah. Good call, the guy there knows his shit. I have very hugh arches (i wear arch support normally) and apparently quite wide feet. Because of the arch support my foot comes down on the outside, so apparently this needed to be rectified. I tried on a few pairs of shoes and finally ended up with a pair of Asics GT-2110(4E). They make my feet feel a lot flatter and that's a good thing. Now I can't wait to go for a run but this weather is shitty.+

Good stuff mate, if I wasn't on a rest day I'd drive in and meet you for a 20 min jog! yeah Joe is great and apparently an absolute running machine, you wouldn't think it looking at him, he certainly ain't built like Rob Costella for example more like a Rugby player. So Kleph, Myself and you have all good cushy goodness to enjoy awesome.

[/QUOTE]Ad they were only $175. I was expecting to be paying $200+[/QUOTE]

That's a great price for a very good shoe.

[stinky]

new shoes = happy feet

http://forum.zgeek.com/gallery/files/2/0/1/happyfeet.jpg

Dude! your toes are longer than my fingers!

I've got size 13 feet too .. and damn it can be hard finding shoes. Glad to hear it all worked out :)

[kleph]

I have very hugh arches (i wear arch support normally) and apparently quite wide feet. Because of the arch support my foot comes down on the outside, so apparently this needed to be rectified.

well, it is not so much it needs to be "fixed" than you need to find the right shoe for your particular needs. the biomechanics of your legs and feet is incredibly complicated and having ther right shoe is a matter of working with it as much as possible.

but high arches are tricky. they keep your foot from absorbing impact very well. add to this your regular pronation and it could be an issue in a few hundred miles. essentially you would be asking your metatarsals (the arch bones in your foot) to take more damage and pushing other stresses up into the lower leg (HELLOO! shin splints)

I tried on a few pairs of shoes and finally ended up with a pair of Asics GT-2110(4E). They make my feet feel a lot flatter and that's a good thing.

that is a good solid shoe for a regular pronator. asics has made its fortune on the gel technology. they infuse the foam midsole of the shoe with a silicone gel that better absorbs shock. the foam gives support and the gel gives cushion. it is more efficent, lighter and doesn't wear down as fast.

but there is one other difference in this shoe you need to be aware of. your foot feels flatter because it probably is. in the past shoes were designed around your foot, elements were introduced to respond to specific bio mechanic issues. you bought the shoe that matched your foot. this shoe is one of a new breed that directly alters your footstrike itself using something they call "the Space Trusstic mechanism."

basically, there is a a natural stiffening of the foot when the big toe joint drops below the other toe joints during mid-stance and push-off. this shoe has a soft "twist GEL" pad under the big toe joint that pulls the arch taught over the big toe joint and the foot becomes more rigid, the pronation rate is reduced, and propulsion is more efficient.

(this 2004 article (http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/?id=6155&c=355) in running times magazines explains it in much more detail.)

this, obviously, would seem to fit your situation to a "T" there have been concerns over if purposely stressing the arch to reduce overpronation and promote an efficient toe-off is appropriate for all runners. but the popularity of the shoes seems to have put that to rest.

Now I can't wait to go for a run but this weather is shitty.

cold, dreary, rainy days are, by far, the best to go running in. lace up and go out, my friend!

Ad they were only $175. I was expecting to be paying $200+

it is the best purchase you made this year. now make them last. take care of them properly (http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,5033,s6-52-167-0-268,00.html).

[Benwah]

lace up and go out, that's the best advice.

[King_Crud]

well everyone says to listen to your body, I'm glad i did this morning. I went for a run with the new shoes but i felt crappy from the begining. I only did one lap but i feel more fucked than when i do my usual 3. The shoes felt ok though, certainly different and there's a couple of new muscles being used but I'll get used to it.

We all have our bad days.

[kleph]

dude, that's been my entire week. even with the new shoes yesterday. benwah commented that new shoes can create a bit of a problem because, by providing more cushion, you have to work a bit harder to run. possibly, but it sounds like we are both dealing with training fatigue to a certain extent.

one of the books i have been using advises coming up with a reasonable training schedule but always being ready to cut a run short if you feel it could be working against you - never add to a set run.

give it a day, put in a shorter "recovery" run next time out and see where you are at. as benwah also once told me, you will know your conditioning is getting better as the length of time you need to recover between workouts shortens.

[King_Crud]

My recovery has been the biggest thing I've notice change since i started running 6 months ago. I used to run the same distance and get home fucked, sweating, needing a heap water. Now I still feel like I've worked hard I don't feel as "fucked" as I did before.

But yeah, i felt like i was pushing shit uphill today, not light on my feet at all.

[kleph]

you really need to keep a diary or blog or something where you write down things like this. it helps to be able and look back at your recent runs in detail when you are trying to figure out what might be the cause.

in my case, i am pretty sure it is the recent change to consecutive days running. i had gotten on a good schedule of one day run/one day off. now i am putting in two or three days in a row during the week and, although my mileage is about the same, the effort is tougher.

i am going to put in a long run tomorrow and then it's a week-and-a-half off while i go on a trip in country. we'll see where i am at when i get back.

[King_Crud]

I'm basically using this thread as a diary, especially if things go better/worse than normal.

[kleph]

you really need to include information that just isn't really realistic with just posting in this thread.

you should list time of run, how long you ran, how far you ran, what type of surfaces, what types of inclines (hills or no), what time of day, weather conditions. and you should give a simple account of the run and how you felt as well as a listing of any and all pains, aches or injuries no matter how trivial.

the reason is we tend to forget the details in any routine type of behavior. this gives you a record of details you can refer back to if you need to. say, for example, you suddenly develop a sharp pain in your calf. all you have to do is look back and see that... perhaps you started running on a different surface a week ago.

that's why i suggest just getting a free blog (or, hell, start your own thread here) since you are likely to input the data if you use the computer daily. written diaries i can never keep up with.

[Benwah]

Since starting bigjogger I've been running every day except Saturday and I can tell you by Friday I can really feel it, just the one day off helps a lot.

Without rest or at least a drop in effort/distance for a day its hard for your body to recover and grow.

[kleph]

yeah, my new goal is to get comfortable with this new pattern of two and three-in-a-row running days so i am ready for real training to start in mid-september. it doesn't seem to be a question of distance, just recovery time. so, from that, i guess i need to have my conditioning a bit finer tuned before the real deal.

[Benwah]

I concur, Everything I've experienced a read about tells me that condition or 'a base' is really important.

[kleph]

the long run today went a hell of a lot smoother than i expected. i guess it took a bit longer to get over the abuse of the bad shoes than i thought. i ended up having a killer pace even though i thought i did it relatively slow.

i really love doing the weekend long runs, it makes all the bs of the weekday workouts worth it. while lots of folks talk about the runner's "high" i never get that but i have moments of lucidity now and then when i am just more aware of things around me than normal. it's very zen and very nice.

another great thing about running early in the mornings in peru is a lot of folks are at the tail end of their evenings. i was running along the beach this morning and passed two or three groups of people hanging around their cars drinking.

i passed one early on where all the doors of the vehicle were open with the stereo cranked up and there were beer bottles everywhere. they yelled at me as i chugged on by and i just waved.

half an hour later when i came back by the car was still there but the radio was off and the halfway sober ones were helping one or two of the others spew up whatever they ate last night. i just chugged on by and waved.

[Benwah]

Running through the city as people come out of clubs all bleary eye'd : Priceless

I don't get runner high really but when everything 'clicks' and I feel like I'm just sailing along I know that feels good enough... maybe I'm just jaded ;)

[kleph]

every so often i would get passed by a taxi packed full of people who were all passed out from drinking all night. it always helps me run better cause i know, no matter how bad i feel at that exact moment, come noon i am going to be doing great and those guys are not even going to be at the point they can deal with sunlight.

[King_Crud]

Well I gave the new shoes the ultimate test. I loaded up with my favorite energy lunch (Spicy Korean Chicken & Rice), put my favorite running music in my mp3 player (devo) and set off at a comfortable pace. The result? The shoes passed the test. I could really feel the gel of the shoes working, and it felt weird that my feet were so flat, but that was the goal of these shoes. I didn't feel like I had quite the same spring as I used to but it felt solid. Having my toes so flat made it feel a bit like i was running through mud bare foot.

Overall I'm happy and I don't think i can really blame the shoes for any poor performances (although it won't stop me).

[stinky]

Another win for Consumerism! An Ipod, a pair of Nike+ shoes and a cable between them = your shoes being your personal trainer!

here (http://www.apple.com/ipod/nike/)

With a sensor in your shoe and a receiver on your iPod nano, your run takes on a whole new dimension. See the minutes tick by. Watch the miles unfold. Hear real-time feedback. All to your favorite music — including the one song that always gets you through the home stretch.

[Benwah]

Shame Nike shoes mess with my running/make my knees ache. Also I nearly got run over one time listening to music when I was running!

[King_Crud]

Shame Nike shoes mess with my running/make my knees ache. Also I nearly got run over one time listening to music when I was running!
I can't run without my music. If i can't hear my breathing then I'm not suffering. And fortunately I only have to cross one road on my way to and from Wentworth Park.

[Benwah]

I live in the 'surbs thus many many SUV type maniac soccermothers.

I also wear all black when I run at night my theory being that cars won't see me anyway and it makes me look out for them instead.

[The Avatar]

I can now run without stopping for 17minutes at 8.5 kph on a 3.5 degree incline.

And then run for a further 12 minutes at 8kph on a 6 degree incline.

My god, I didn't know I could hurt like this. Whats worse is that I'll hit the cross trainer for 30mins beforehand and a further 40mins afterwards. I think I'm trying to kill myself........

[kleph]

if you really are that sore, you need to take tomorrow off. give your body a chance to rejuvenate and repair itself. instead concentrate on eating a balanced diet tomorrow and having a good helping of carbs for dinner to give you good energy when you get back at it the day after that.

[kleph]

surprised myself these last two days by having much better - and faster - runs than i intended. it seems all my climbing up and down macchu picchu did me a lot more good than i realized. well, that and the time off.

mostly, though, it's having the new shoes that is the biggest joy in my running life right now. i haven't had a single nagging pain or ache in either my feet or legs since getting my new asics. i'm building a little shrine for them in the corner of the room with incense and everything.

[King_Crud]

I've had a quiet week. Due to my knee popping on Monday i rested on Tuesday and won't be able to go for a run until maybe tomorrow.

[kleph]

smart move.

[Thyrd]

PZ3tsC3moB4
Free running would be a very efficient way to keep fit.

[kleph]

awesome. now do it for 48 kilometers.

[Thyrd]

I could do it, I just don't wanna.

[stinky]

I had a really bad week last week :( Developed a twinge in my calf on monday night playing handball ( not the schoolyard type :P ) and used it as an excuse to not run pretty much all week ... I was just being soft as it wasn't that bad, but at 5:30am any excuse seems to be enough to reset the alarm and get back into bed :/

[berserk]

Went for a run on Sat morning & by God, it hurt! I probably covered no more than 2-3 km over about 15 minutes & in that time managed to worked up a sweat & borderline asthmatic wheezing.

A day later, my quadriceps hurt like fuck when walking down an incline. The pain switches over to the hamstrings when walking up an incline. The pain is there for 2 days.

Strangely, I don't get even 10% of the agony after a good game of football playing in midfield.

[kleph]

beserk, sounds like you are pushing yourself too hard. slow your pace down to just more than a jog but try to get 20 minutes next time. here at the start, don't even worry about distance (it makes you focus too much on speed, which gets you into trouble)

running distance is a different situation than game play. it puts a lot of different stresses on your body that take some time to get used to. but, i assure you, as your running gets better, your stamina on the field will as well.

stinky, every running guide i have read advises down weeks. not necessarily off weeks, but periods of relatively reduced work. you need to have the resolve to get back on the pavement after the respite. in my experience, i find my running revitalized after my first one or two sloppy runs readjusting to the routine again.

and both of you should be using ice. put a bunch of ice in a towel and wrap it around the area in question. when you start to feel the cold start your clock and let it stay on it for 20 minutes or so. when you take off the ice the area should be red. do this two or three times a day for a few days.

[Cassa]

I have decided my goal for the moment is to get fit enough to get a good time in this http://www.jpmorganchasecc.com/events.php

Sure it's a small goal but it's a big deal for someone that always shirked running, and I think it's achievable.

[kleph]

so a nov. 9 five kilometer run. you have plenty of time. and don't dismiss the goal as being insignificant. it's your goal so, from your point of view, it's the most important one in the world. treat it as such.

the basics: buy a good pair of running shoes, start slow and give yourself time to recover from your workouts. the secret: sticking to it.

[Benwah]

Depending on the milage your doing cross trainers will do the job okay.

The major different with cross trainers is that they have more support for lateral movement (so for Tennis, Squash, Aerobics, Netball and general activities including a bit of running) running specific shoes are a little lighter and don't have the support built in for jumping, changing direction, pushing weights around etc, however running shoes are typically more technical in the way they control the way your foot lands and 'pushes off' it's called motion control.

Update from me: the next two days will be tough going for me, two night of 2.5hr of running.

Kleph! sorry I haven't commented in a while, busy times for me and focusing on getting bigjogger all finished off.

[King_Crud]

I just went for my first run since my Monday knee incident. I ran like shit and only did two laps but that's not surprising when all I've eaten today is bacon and eggs. But the good news is my knee is just fine, and even my ankles didn't hurt a bit. My new shoes must be doing the job.

[kleph]

if your ankles hurt first and, later, your knee, it might be a connected problem. often if you have one point of injury, your automatically favor it in some way, altering your running stride. the abnormal mechanics often cause another injury elsewhere.

if it is gone, yeah, that sounds like the shoes. but if it recurrs let us know.

[kleph]

if you are putting in regular miles on the road, you need running shoes. cross trainer's simply don't cut the mustard.

[Cassa]

Ok, I bought running shoes. Apparently I have low arches and a tendency to roll my feet inwards when I step. I will not be doing any running tonight however as I seem to have developed lumbar spasms over the last couple of hours and am in some amount of pain :/

[kleph]

you over pronate. this is very common. it's a function of the mechanics of the foot that allows you to plant yourself firmly on the ground with your foot supporting your entire weight. the problems for over pronators starts at the end when you push off for the next step - if you have too much motion you muscles compensate, and when they are working too hard at this you develop problems.

i doubt, given the limited amount of miles and pace you will be running, that you are going to have too much of a problem now you have the right shoes. more likely you will need to watch out for fatigue injuries as your body begins to adjust to the new demands you are putting on it.

the secret to dealing with that is go slow. never increase your mileage by more than 10 percent a week and give yourself sufficent time to recover from each workout.

i would suggest starting out by doing a very slow run or even just a brisk walk for 20 minutes, skip a day, and do it again. not fast, just at a level slightly more than your regular 'walking' pace. see how you feel. if you think you can do more increase the pace a little. if not, just stay at that level and put in three runs like that for a week over two weeks.

[The Avatar]

Question: After a big session at the gym (regardless of whether I'm running for a long time or not), I'll take a shower, and I'll have a very strong aroma of amonia emenating from my body. Is this a good thing? I'm going to ask my doctor about it tomorrow.

I've just managed a 40 mins run on the treadmill. Jebus, I really love punnishing my body. This can't be healthy...and yet, I've lost heaps of weight and I'm getting all these cool bumps everywhere. I think they're called muscles. AWESOME!!!

I'm still very weirded out about the amonia smell afterwards though...

[King_Crud]

Had a great run tonight, powered through after having a big carb lunch. I need to find the balance of carbs though. I'm wanting to lose my gut so i have to find the balance between loading up on carbs and having a great run but not burning excess fat, and not having carbs and running like shit and hating it. I have lost a bit of weight since i started 6 months ago, of that there is no denying. I only recently bought scales so i can now give myself definitive progress.

[kleph]

my suggestion? don't worry about it. regularly running is going to start helping you with the problem so don't fret over it much.

the goal here is maximizing your body's ability to process glycogen. as you do that, it will also get better at processing fat when you need it. the big problem diet runners encounter is they often don't provide themselves enough energy for what they are attempting to do. to run well you need to give yourself the fuel your body needs, not starve it in hope you will burn off a bit more fat. the latter will lead to you running fatigued and more prone to injury.

and running to lose weight is not a short term goal. you are more likely to gain weight in the initial stages as you build more muscle and start this conversion training process. particularly if you are doing gym work as well. the reason? muscle weighs more than fat.

the best bet is to keep a sane running schedule and an intellegent diet. one of the best suggestions i can give for the latter is start cooking for yourself more.

[Benwah]

The Avatar, the smell of Ammonia/bleach is a sign that your body may be burning the wrong fuel try having more in the way of bread, rice, spuds or grains in the meal leading up to your run.

King_Crud if you run enought the reverse problem will manifest itself in time, if the fire is hot enough anything will burn basically.

I'm home today trying to recover from the last two big runs, Sunday Night 3 hours and last night 2.5hours (the last double eviction and final night of big brother) my quads are so sore I can't stand without them screaming out in pain and my arms! are sore from lifting up my hands repeatedly many thousands of times. I covered close to 60KM in two days I don't know if that was something to be proud of or just something that classes me as stupid.

Getting some Advil soon and going to try and go for a walk later to try and flush some of the pain out.

Get this, it even hurts to type (how wimpy is that!)

[King_Crud]

Poor Benwah, good effort though. I went for my usual Tuesday run and was quite pleased. I didn't feel great runnning but i still did my distance and in a decent pace. It's the first time I feel I can run well, even on off days. Quite pleasing.

[Benwah]

It's not so bad K_C I've spent the day eating and watching day time telly with my feet up. Luxury.

Well done on today, sounds good. a big part of running is consistancy, so, keep it up mate.

[The Avatar]

The Avatar, the smell of Ammonia/bleach is a sign that your body may be burning the wrong fuel try having more in the way of bread, rice, spuds or grains in the meal leading up to your run.


Yeah, my doctor kinda said something like that. He said not to worry, its just the smell of my body digesting fat really quickly. Some people get it. He said that if I get it all the time, like when I'm not working out, then its an idicator that diabeties may be an issue.
But, I only get the amonia smell sometimes, not always. And its usually after eating heaps of junk food, so it makes sense that my body is using all the fat quickly to power my running.

Yeah, my diet kinda sucks ass at the moment. I'm going to a dietitian on Monday for a consult. $90 OUCH!!

Got a 20min run in today at 4 degrees at 9 kph. I almost didn't make it after yesterdays effort. Youch! But, as always, I refuse to stop until the clock has finished its count down. But, you should have seen the machine afterwards, it was covered in sweat. In a 2 hour session, I lose so much fluid. Basically if you stand in a shower, fully clothed for 3 minutes, that would be me afterwards.


I'm home today trying to recover from the last two big runs, Sunday Night 3 hours and last night 2.5hours (the last double eviction and final night of big brother) my quads are so sore I can't stand without them screaming out in pain and my arms! are sore from lifting up my hands repeatedly many thousands of times. I covered close to 60KM in two days I don't know if that was something to be proud of or just something that classes me as stupid.

Getting some Advil soon and going to try and go for a walk later to try and flush some of the pain out.

Get this, it even hurts to type (how wimpy is that!)

Don't forget the BB rove special on tonight! You have a 2 hour run there man! Good luck!

[Benwah]

Yeah, my doctor kinda said something like that. He said not to worry, its just the smell of my body digesting fat really quickly. Some people get it. He said that if I get it all the time, like when I'm not working out, then its an idicator that diabeties may be an issue.
But, I only get the amonia smell sometimes, not always. And its usually after eating heaps of junk food, so it makes sense that my body is using all the fat quickly to power my running.

Yeah, fat and protein, and can be a sign of burning muscle so be careful of that.

I lose so much fluid. Basically if you stand in a shower, fully clothed for 3 minutes, that would be me afterwards.

Do they have portable fans at your gym? when I use a treadmill I tend to put a fan in front of me, that might help, although I think in previous posts you've said that you like the feeling of being heaps sweaty, if so, enjoy! let us know what the dietitian says (I have an idea and I bet you do too, but it will be good to get it customized just for you)

Don't forget the BB rove special on tonight! You have a 2 hour run there man! Good luck!

Not a chance! I'm totally spent I couldn't run with a gun against my head! Rove special or not I've done my dash. I couldn't sleep all night because the pain woke me up :)

[The Avatar]

Yeah, fat and protein, and can be a sign of burning muscle so be careful of that.


I figure if I keep running and going to the gym, it wont matter whether its fat or muscle thats burnt. By the end of the year, I shouldn't have much fat left as I've already dropped so much weight.


Do they have portable fans at your gym? when I use a treadmill I tend to put a fan in front of me, that might help, although I think in previous posts you've said that you like the feeling of being heaps sweaty, if so, enjoy! let us know what the dietitian says (I have an idea and I bet you do too, but it will be good to get it customized just for you)

They have fans at the Sylvania gym and I hate it. Makes running difficult when you're freezing your tits off. Dietitian will have a heart attack when I tell her my current diet!

Not a chance! I'm totally spent I couldn't run with a gun against my head! Rove special or not I've done my dash. I couldn't sleep all night because the pain woke me up :)

Funny, I get the opposite. When my muscles are really sore and it really bad, I sleep like a baby. It's the waking up part that really kicks me in the nuts!!

[King_Crud]

I love sweating it out

[Benwah]

I figure if I keep running and going to the gym, it wont matter whether its fat or muscle thats burnt. By the end of the year, I shouldn't have much fat left as I've already dropped so much weight.!!

To a point, burning muscle for energy is very hard on your kidneys, but looking at the time/distance you are running this is unlikely.


They have fans at the Sylvania gym and I hate it. Makes running difficult when you're freezing your tits off. Dietitian will have a heart attack when I tell her my current diet!!!

Good luck with her, your going to get a blasting I can tell!

Funny, I get the opposite. When my muscles are really sore and it really bad, I sleep like a baby. It's the waking up part that really kicks me in the nuts!!

Repectfully, run 60K in two days then tell me how well you sleep :) (don't mind me I'm just gloating for once it's the one thing I'm really okay at, running.)

[The Avatar]

Pffft! I do 15-20ks on the cross trainer every day followed by a 4-7k run.

(Don't mind me, I'm gloating also :) because I've never, and I mean never been able to run for more than 30 seconds in my life. Now, I'm like the bionic man, smarter, stronger, faster....dun dun dun dan dan da doo!!!)

[kleph]

bask in the success. you deserve it. but remember, running is a long term type of thing and there are periods of frustration when you just can't seem to make any improvement. remember these good times to get through those tough times.

and while it might seem wonderful to be burning fat at the moment there are dangers, like benwah, pointed out as well as problems down the road. your goal really should not be to "burn as much fat as possible and fuck the rest" it should be to maximize your body's ability to process energy.

when you can do that, your body will switch to burning fat when it needs to in order to help you exercise better. most likely, you would have already seen a reduction in your weight as well. and, as your dietician is likely to tell you, controlling what kinds of fat you put into your body is just as important as how you burn it.

[King_Crud]

What the fuck is a cross trainer?