Israeli douchebags attack protesters as they arrive in Israel

A senior Israeli military officer’s seemingly unprovoked assault against an unarmed pro-Palestinian activist drew sharp condemnations, raising questions in Israel over whether the country’s heavy-handed approach to nonviolent protesters was exaggerated and causing damage to Israel’s image.

The assault, captured on video and featured in all major newspapers and TV broadcasts, follows Israel’s high-profile interception at its main airport of dozens of international activists who had planned a solidarity mission with Palestinians in the West Bank. Adding to the sense that Israel may have gone too far, officials said Tuesday that nearly 500 people were erroneously blocked from visiting.

Israel has branded the activists “provocateurs” who posed a security threat to the country. Calling itself the Middle East’s only democracy, it says the protesters have their priorities wrong and should instead focus on rampant human rights violations in neighboring Arab countries.

Sure, overlook the genocide because the neighbours are also douches.

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Pirate is a man without reason, sanity or mercy. He once saw a crab at a beach.

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56 comments

  1. Hired Goon

    That article is anti septic and a conspiracy against the jubes. I think you’ll find under international anti terrorism laws, standing there constitutes treason.

  2. Leonid

    This soldier’s been suspended and the incident is being investigated according to military (or civilian?) laws in Israel.

    In other Middle Eastern news, 60 people have died in Syria since the cease fire was announced, and no-one is investigating. 2 Salafists killed two Egyptian police officers in the Sinai desert (Egypt) and no-one is investigating. And on Saturday night a few Palestinians (Ayman Judah Brigades) committed a dual war crime by firing a rocket from a civilian area into Israel.

    In other news, Sharia Law or similar across the Arab Middle East keeps roughly 170 million women in a state of subjugation even Rick Santorum wouldn’t appreciate. FGM is on the increase in Sudan and Egypt. Gays are executed as a matter of course everywhere in the Arab Middle East except Lebanon.

    Iran’s executing atheists and Bahai’s.

    And every Arab country is denying their Palestinian refugees full employment or citizenship rights. Jordan actively removed citizenship rights from 2700 Jordanian Palesitnians over the last 4 years. The PA is denying the right of the refugees to resettle out of the camps despite being given 60 years of funding to do so.

    What point does this have?

    The guy looks like he’s done the wrong thing. He’ll be punished unless he can mount a damned good legal defence and provide a reason not a single one of us can see that remotely justifies a rifle-whipping. The point though, is, that there is something being done about it, in accordance with a western secular law. It may take time, in fact it will take time – but there will be a result.

    In the meantime, while the world focuses on Israel in induced-righteous outrage, demanding blood, and arguing about evil Zionists, apartheid, Nazism, and all the rest of the words the professional activist class misuse, all the things I’ve mentioned will keep happening, without anything being done about it.

    And in a few months, this incident will be resolved, the soldier will be punished and the professional activists will move onto the next outrage they provoke.

  3. Leonid

    In other interesting news, Netanyahu is getting a letter delivered to him by Abbas. It’s apparently been leaked:

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/text-of-abbass-letter-to-netanyahu/

    <a href="http://liamgetreu.com/2012/04/18/text-of-abbass-letter-to-bibi-leaked/">Summary</a&gt; from a blog shows:
    <em>Mr. Prime Minister,

    Our historic Peace Proposal is still waiting for an answer from Israel.

    We agreed to establish the State of Palestine on only 22% of the territory of historical Palestine-on all the Palestinian Territory occupied by Israel in 1967.
    The establishment of independent Palestinian State that can live side-by-side with the State of Israel in peace and security on the borders of 1967 with mutually agreed swaps equal in size and value.
    Security will be guaranteed by a third party accepted by both, to be deployed on the Palestinian side.
    A just and agreed resolution for the refugees’ problem as specified in the Arab Peace Initiative.
    Jerusalem will serve as a capital of two States. East Jerusalem capital of Palestine. West Jerusalem capital of Israel. Jerusalem as an open city can be the symbol of peace.</em>

    That’s basically been Israel’s (and the USA’s and the ME Quartet’s) position for a decade.

    Finally.

  4. Scythe

    You know the difference, Leonid?

    People EXPECT Islamc nations in the middle east to be fucked up. Israel bills itself as different, more civilised, ‘better’. It’s the hypocrisy that upsets people, much as it does with America. You seem unable to grasp that, despite it having been pointed out to you numberous times.

  5. Leonid

    The soldier will be brought to account. Part of being a western liberal democracy is an inbuilt requirement to understand individuality.

    Individuals can be arseholes.

    Maybe this soldier is one. Whatever the case may be, there’s a procedure to deal with him and it’s being done right now. He’s suspended and the entire thing is being investigated.

    What do you want Israel to do? Go all Victorian Police Force on him, shoot him and then ask questions?

    I’ll reiterate my point which the professional activists don’t seem to ever grasp: Israel, from now until the end of time, will occasionally do wrong things. Israelis from now, until the end of time, will do the wrong thing.

    They have laws and expectations that judge merit and appropriate punishments for actions found to be illegal. In some cases these are harsher or more lenient than similar laws in Australia or the States or England.

    That soldier will receive a full fair hearing and if judged sufficiently guilty, serve time in jail.

    In the meantime 170 million women in the Arab Middle East don’t have a say about what happens to and around their vaginas. Atheists and gays are being executed left, right and center. And nothing will be done about it because it’s easier to get enraged about a violent incident that is already being dealt with according to the law.

  6. Leonid

    Also Scythe, may I ask a question?

    Do you expect Israel to be better than every western democracy or more or less as flawed as they are?

    Because I’m pretty sure Israelis don’t consider themselves or their country better than every other western democracy, just orders of magnitude better than the Islamic nations in the region.

    Israel never claimed perfection – that’s a strawman the professional activists have set up. Israel like every western nation has issues with poverty, crime, archaic discriminatory laws, freedom of the press, freedom of information, internal issues with indigenous citizens, negativity in politics, globalization, environmental issues, resource over-utilization.

    There’s nothing perfect about Israel. It’s a decent place to live, to bring up kids without fear of them being legally discriminated against on the basis of color, religion – though in everyday conversations this will happen as it does with private citizens of every western democracy.

  7. Leonid

    Israel’s military is the most moral in the world. Their current civilian to militant kill ratio is 1:30.

    They took the lessons of Gaza and Lebanon and designed lower impact ordinances which carries a risk of missing but also lowering civilian deaths.

    Just on Sunday Israel fired a missile into a Gaza market, missed the militants and hurt no-one despite the crowds.

    After Kfar Qana, Israel re-adjusted it’s military doctrines to allow the lowliest soldier to contradict orders in case of disproportionate force being a risk in a targeted engagement.

    Rape is almost non-existent (can’t think of an incident where an IDF soldier raped a Palestinian woman…

    By any metric you care to name I can show you that the IDF consistently performs better in comparable scenarios than the military of any other country.

    But not that Israel says that it’s military is the most moral in the world. It doesn’t claim it’s military is perfect or morality personified

    Oh and Israel are completely honest with this soldier – he’s suspended and being investigated – so I ask again – what more do you want Israel to do with regards to this incident right now?

    As for "in general", Israel is as honest – more or less – as any western democracy.

  8. Leonid

    Let me see if I get this right though… Israel claims the most moral military force in the world – and you take it to mean that Israel claims the IDF is perfect.

    Israel claims to be better socio-politically than any country in the Middle East and you take it to mean that Israel says it’s perfect.

    Why is it that you judge Israel by a standard higher than it’s set for itself and expect it to be upheld in the Israeli case despite no country in the world being able to meet that standard?

  9. Leonid

    Also, how’s this for a comparison – last month, an American soldier killed 16 Afghani civilians.

    In the last 7 years, American forces have killed 3000 cpeople in Pakistan – 50% civilian from memory – in a country they’re not even at war with.

    The American proportionate body count from Iraq is insanely higher than Israel v Palestine.

    Nothing like the perversion or scale of Abu Ghraib has ever been done by Israeli soldiers.

    Are we in agreement that Israel’s IDF is more moral than the Americans in a similar situation?

  10. DermottBanana

    The IDF is the world’s most moral defence force?
    Oh Leo, you crack me up.
    How *exactly* is that measured?
    I admit I don’t have the current league tables for "Moral Behaviour of a bunch of guys cruising round in tanks and blowing up neighbouring countries", but I am pretty sure I can think of a few countries whose military forces have a bit cleaner track record than the IDF.
    Actually Leo, can you check the league tables and tell me where the Swiss guards of the Vatican rank? Or maybe the Imperial Army of Luxembourg? Or perhaps let’s get an example closer to home, and tell me how the NZDF ranks? After all, the closest NZ has had to a security threat was a generation ago when French scuba divers blew up a hippie sailing boat.

  11. Leonid

    "but I am pretty sure I can think of a few countries whose military forces have a bit cleaner track record than the IDF."

    Go for it.

    The Swiss Guards don’t count. They’re never deployed – it’s like comparing the armed forces of Nauru for morality with the forces of New Zealand.

    Also, the Swiss Guards must be swiss citizens and must be Catholic. There’s some morality to discuss in there for you :)

    Comparing to the NZDF? It’s harder because it’s like comparing apples with oranges – after all NZ aren’t deployed in any hot zones of the urban warfare variety at the moment. But the NZDF is not 100% clean either – http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2712026/Kiwi-troops-in-war-crimes-row.

    I repeat again, since you conveniently forgot to read it: By any metric you care to name I can show you that the IDF consistently performs better in comparable scenarios than the military of any other country.

    Comparable scenarios.

    After all Israel doesn’t claim to have a defence force that morality looks up to and says "wow, I want to be more like the IDF" – they just say they’re more moral than anyone else, and again – comparing military responses of a military that is constantly deployed vs a military that spends their time making love to sheep – is not exactly an even remotely adequate comparison.

    I’m sure that were the Palestinians to quieten down, Israeli soldiers would spend their days in Tel Aviv getting pissed and stoned at the hundreds of night clubs there, or spending their time in Goa or Thailand before having to go to uni.

  12. Leonid

    "It’s probably one of those lies like, "Israel is the only democracy in the middle east," that people think if they repeat it long enough people will believe it and not notice the millions of people living under Israeli control with no democractic and restricted human rights for decades."

    I hate to tell you this – but the majority of Palestinians do not live under Israeli control. They still have restricted human rights because their government is shit.

    In fact, because of Israel, some of the excesses of Hamas are redirected towards Israel – rather than against their own people. After all the draft 2003 constitution that will form the basis of the Palestinian state and explicitly calls for Sharia Law – which I don’t need to tell you – has twice been legally judged by EU courts to be against human rights.

    To quickly sum up: Israel maintains security in the West Bank. Yes it’s unfair to Palestinians since they have restricted movement and certain roads they can’t get onto unless they have an Israeli passport or an Israeli visa in their passports – it’s pretty shit.

    But it is a well known fact that the Palestinians don’t have anything remotely close to freedom in the majority of areas not under Israeli control. To be gay is to be accused of collaboration and be publicly flogged, stoned and executed. To be raped requires a defence against willing adultery with 4 Muslim male witnesses. To be Christian means to be prevented from proselytising on pain of imprisonment or torture – while Muslims are perfectly allowed. Conversion to Islam allows a son to get ownership of his Christian parents’ estate. To be Ahmadiya Muslim under the PA’s control is to be denied education, utilities, access to government jobs and endure forced divorce to prevent breeding. To be Shia (minority in Galilean region of PA territory) means requiring to face daily beating and discrimination from the Sunni Fateh and Hamas.

    To be Palestinian is to live in a state of permanent victimhood – the refugee camps may have been the fault of Israel and the Arabs but there is not a single law or policy in Israel that prevents the PA government from resettling the people out of the refugee camps – in fact Israel tried to help in the 70s but was forced to stop by the UN after the Arab states complained that Israel was taking away the Palestinians’ right to victimhood.

    Every country in the world, with a displaced population, including Israel, has let refugees come and helped them, not kept them in camps. That alone, is enough to convict the PA. They’ve had billions of dollars in aid over the years to make their people’s lives better. Every time they launch an intifada with predictable results – thousands of Palestinians dead for 10 times less Israelis – who does that help? Does it make the Palestinians’ lives better? Doubt it – Israel just doubles down on security.

    In a slight personal aside – my grandmother’s family was Ukrainian and they lost their homes when the Nazis cruised through in 1942 – my great grandma lost her life in a preventable disease in squalor in Stalingrad. Then in 1991, my family left Moscow and "our" property and citizenship was repossessed by the USSR, without a right of return of either. I have no right to Russian citizenship because I was never a Russian citizen – only a Soviet one.

    The point is, is that I could hate Russia, and Germany for the terrible things they did to my family. And i could pass that on to my children and they could pass it on to their children. Imagine if this sentiment was passed down generation to generation universally and constantly used as an excuse to discriminate against them. Sometimes the victims themselves need to know when it’s time to move on and take responsibility for the way their life currently is.

  13. Leonid

    But to get back to the central point:

    This soldier is suspended and being investigated – which is exactly what we would demand of an Australian soldier in the same situation. There’s really nothing more to say about this – this Israeli looks like he did the wrong thing and Israel is doing the right thing by suspending him and investigating the incident. So there’s nothing wrong here at all.

    On the "morality" issue… I’m happy to assume that Israel’s IDF is not the most moral force in the world. Lets assume that for the sake of argument. Lets assume they’re the 30th most moral force in the world.

    They’re still far more moral than the Syrian forces, the Saudi forces, the Yemeni forces, the Pakistani forces, the Egyptian forces, the Jordanian forces, etc.

    So while the professional activists are getting into knots about Israeli "hypocrisy" over the beating of a Norwegian activist that is already being taken care of in accordance with conventional laws that are internationally common to western countries – these countries are restricting the rights of 170 million women, 32 million gays and 40 million people who are of a different faith or lack a faith. And that means state-approved or sanctioned murder, stoning, imprisonment, torture – and no investigation when these things come to light.

    My "hypocrisy"w in defending the IDF as a decent but flawed organisation or the professional activists’ hypocrisy in attacking the only state in the middle east that doesn’t indiscriminately shoot its own arab citizens for daring to open their mouths against the government or other organisations?

  14. Leonid

    Not rockets. Missiles. There’s a huge difference. Rockets are unguided. Indiscriminate. Missiles are guided. Targeted.

    It’s normal accepted practice to fire targeted missiles into civilian areas. The morality of the act doesn’t stem from the location of engagement – the morality of the act is use of proportionate force and minimisation of peripheral damage (and associated civilian casualties).

    That is why every NATO country in Afghanistan is firing missiles and other guided munitions into civilian areas that are still under Taliban control – it’s OK and perfectly moral, as long as you target militants and take steps to reduce civilian and infrastructure damage.

    Next you’ll be telling us porkies about how evil the Americans were for Yugoslavia where they dropped targeted munitions all over Belgrade civilian areas, in the Kosovo/Yugoslavia war in a 1000-plane non-stop air-strikes for over 70 days.

  15. Leonid

    So far, I’m denouncing ignorant bigots while you guys ignore them and denounce a country that has taken appropriate steps with regards to a soldier who did the wrong thing.

    At what point are you going to admit that any one of you would much rather live in Israel than in any Arab country if forced to – and that there’s a reason for it?

    In fact, were zgeek an Israeli site, not a single person would be in danger. Were zgeek as virulently anti-Palestinian as it is anti-Israeli, and hosted in Palestine, every single one of you would be dead or being tortured in prison.

    Who’s defending the bigots?

  16. Leonid

    I have a great idea.

    Let’s all of us, agree to fight this out another day and for now agree on something we all admit and know to be true:

    "from that video and description there is zero doubt of assault. Nothing I can think of would provoke that king of reaction to a peaceful Norwegian activist. The soldier is a cunt.

    Israel should be congratulated for doing the right thing, removing him from duty, giving him the presumption of innocenc, and investigating the incident and the soldier’s conduc"

    Any objections to this statement?

  17. Scythe

    Wow. Just….wow. It’s ‘perfectly moral’ to fire missiles into civilian areas?

    If you can’t tell the difference between ‘moral’ and ‘practical’, then you’re right, there really is no point continuing this discussion.

  18. Leonid

    I’m mental/retarded?

    Let me see if I can explain to you something one more time.

    You can complain about Israel all you want. From now, until the rest of time, Israel and Israelis will occasionally do the wrong thing. In the case of Israel, they will apologise and seek restitution or pay compensation. In the case of Israelis, Israel punishes them accordign to its very fair and normalised Western criminal laws.

    In this legal sense of justice for its citizens, there is absolutely nothing different between a country like Israel or Australia.

    Likewise, there is absolutely nothing different between justice for their citizens, between Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians and Australians.*

    * If you remove the fact that Lebanese, Egyptians, Syrians, Palestinians, Jordanians practise, in their constitutions and laws a form of apartheid, enforced by government laws, based on ethnicity and/or religion. This form of apartheid then leads to violence and discrimination against minorities, thanks to bigoted views of homosexuality, women, religious superiority and arcane legal structures.

    Israel is not perfect. It never was. It never will be. But targeting Israel for being hypocritical doesn’t change the fact that Israel’s hypocrisy doesn’t kill anyone intentionally, while Arab coutnries bleating about human rights (even as they encode reverance of Muhammed into their laws) are executing citizens they don’t agree with, left, right, and center.

  19. Thyrd

    Those same people conveniently forget that Lebanon exists in the middle east and is a democracy, as is Turkey which is considered by most of Europe to be part of the middle east, despite Turkeys ambitions to become a part of the EU.

  20. Leonid

    You don’t really read do you? Like, you just pick out a few words, but the comprehension… it’s just not there, is it?

    Morality isn’t derived from where you fight. It’s derived from how you fight.

    And yes it’s perfectly moral. There is no better solution than a missile into a crowded market. It’s not even a matter of practicality – it’s a matter of reality.

    You have the option of sending in soldiers, tanks, shelling with artillery or firing a missile. Soldiers, through normal human paranoia, will think everyone’s a target, and act accordingly. Also, they can be seen coming, creating a resistance where even more people die. Tanks have a tendency to destroy walls when they miss, plus killing humans with tanks is like shooting ants with bullets. Artillery is only good for structures – not civilians – untargeted as it is.

    That leaves missiles. If you absolutely must kill a combatant in a crowded civilian area, the only moral way to do so is with a limited-impact missile, after weighing the risks and making sure the missile will strike in an isolated area with zero-to-little collateral damage.

  21. Leonid

    Lebanon prevents 73 professions from Palestinian refugees, regularly invades their refugee camps for some fun ethnic cleansing. Palestinians have no right of citizenship, whether they are there as refugees, or trying to immigrate.

    On top of that, Lebanon has enforced apartheid as the system of government – no Muslim may run for the office of president and no Christian may run for the office of Deputy.

    Do you want me to continue on Lebanon?

    Turkey is not an Arab country. I have repeatedly stated that the human rights issues are with Arab Muslim countries or countries where Arab Muslims are a majority.

  22. Thyrd

    So what’s the civilian death toll up to in Iraq and Afhganistan nowadays? Couple of hundred thousand? Are we into the millions yet? I wonder if those high numbers could have anything to do with firing high explosives into dense residential areas?

    Also; it seems kind of strange for "the most moral military force in the world" to use white phosphorous on UN schools in Gaza. Very strange indeed.

  23. Thyrd

    I thought the point of this debate was that Israel is just as bad as every single one of their neighbours despite the zealous claims to the contrary? The claim that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east is bullshit. The claim that Israel has the "most moral" military force in the world is BULLSHIT. Hamas uses white phosphorous in rockets? So what? All that proves is that Israel is just as bad as them for doing the same thing.

    Lebanon has crazy laws about what political roles people can play? So fucking what? The US doesn’t allow anyone born outside of the country to become president. But that’s not the point, genius! The point is that Israel is NOT the only democracy in the middle east, despite zealous claims to the contrary!

    Israel is not the shining beacon of democracy and ethical goodness you delude yourself into believing. It’s just as much of a shithole as every other country in the middle east.

  24. Leonid

    Thyrd, maybe an education in democratic principles wouldn’t hurt. Democracy means any citizen is able to run for any office regardless of race or religion.

    Three of the highest positions in Lebanon are restricted on the grounds of religion. That means that the likely Muslim-majority Lebanon will forever be governed by a Maronite Christian until another census re-adjusts the demographic statistics in favour of Muslims. And the only person who can auth that census is the president.

    That’s not a democracy – that’s a minority ethnic dictatorship dressed up in pretty clothes.

    Israel is the only liberal western democracy in the Arab middle east.

    Comparison to any other Arab nation is stupid beyond words – Israel has had an acting Arab president while Sharon was sick for a few weeks – what Arab Muslim country even allows a politician to reach such heights who is not Muslim?

    Israel is the shining beacon of democracy in the middle east. It’s got a more vibrant democracy, free press, free speech than anyone in the middle east.

  25. Leonid

    Palestinians don’t live in Israel UAN. Only Israelis do.

    Some Israeli citizens are Arabs and they support and defend Israel. They like it so much in fact that they have a largely positive image of Jews in a region that does not.

    As for oppressed people , you are free to live in Palestinian territories where atheists like yourself are executed by the oppressive Islamist regimes there.

  26. Leonid

    If you want to see kids living under sanctions I can hugely recommend North Korea too.

    They haven’t killed anyone internally that we know of, for a long time, probably because they’ve already achieved something the Palestinians are doing their best to achieve – total 24/7 propaganda against their enemies – and have bling sheep-like compliance from their people.

  27. DermottBanana

    Leo, firing missiles into a crowd of civilians is never excusable. Firing white phosphorous into a school is never excusable.
    Your argument that "they had no choice" seems to ignore the option of "not firing the missiles".
    As I’ve explained before, when a cop has the option to fire at a crim, but knows a civilian may be injured, they are taught to NOT FIRE.
    Surely if the IDF were the saintly crowd you like to portray them as, they’d choose the option less likely to kill people, wouldn’t they?

    Oh, and I’m still waiting for you to publish this league table.
    Or are you gunna come clean and admit that was just a line?

  28. Leonid

    I hear it’s a paradise for someone of your views. Human rights aplenty! Just like under Muslim rule, except well, under Communist rule.

    No rich people, no lawyers or accountants!

    You can be as free as you want there*

    * with exception to right to freedom of speech, right to assemble, right to trial by jury, habeas corpus, right to political self-determination, right to leave or return to your country.

    We’re we speaking about North Korea or Palestine?

    I forgot….

  29. Leonid

    I’m pretty sure that if Israel had fired a missile into a crowd, there would be casualties.

    I’m still waiting for you to give me a comparable scenario.

  30. Leonid

    Firing white phosphorous into a school intentionally is inexcusable. Making a mistake is excusable.

    You would know this from many years of writing Australian Defence Force maritime law summaries.

  31. Leonid

    So anyone want to complement Israel on the fact that they responsibly dealt with an incident perpetrated by this soldier?

    Or does the force-fed hatred of Jews/Israel run that deep?

  32. DermottBanana

    You’re still butthurt over that, aren’t you?

    I never said I wrote them. I said I published them. And now, almost three years later, you still haven’t worked out the difference.

  33. Leonid

    You said you knew Maritime Law because you wrote the response manuals for some ADF journal.

    But that’s not the issue, you lied, big deal. It’s the internet. You might as well be 13/f/cali. Or you might think all cops are retards despite your direct male line contains a few.

    That shit’s irrelevant. It’s just hilarious.

    The bit that should concern you is that in all your years in the Defence Force, you didn’t learn that soldiers make mistakes. And that mistakes come part and parcel of any job.

  34. Leonid

    See UAN – this is why you’re a nutcase. There are approximately three* Jews who say the land should stay israeli because Israel occupies it now. They also believe in flat earth and creationism.

    This is why you’re impossible to talk with. you twist arguments to the point where you’re fighting with a strawman, because you literally are, far too braindead, or stupid, or simply cognitively dissonant.

    Refer back to comment 5:

    "The establishment of independent Palestinian State that can live side-by-side with the State of Israel in peace and security on the borders of 1967 with mutually agreed swaps equal in size and value."

    It doesn’t get clearer than that – Israel accepts and leaves most of the land it occupies, and where its impractical to leave – it swaps equivalent land values. That has been the standard endorsed by pretty much everyone, even the palestinians. That has been the standard in every other armed conflict.

    Also, I couldn’t give a flying fuck about Peter Beinart. If I read every critic of israel – I’d be reading their shit for at least 800 years. If he’s anything like the apologist for actual ethnic genocide (as long as its committed by leftists), Chomsky – I only have so much stomach for that kind of shit.

    Israel is a democracy. It has always been a democracy.

    Every country in the world that recognises Israel recognises that it’s a democracy, even if they don’t like it as a democracy. You and Beinart, whoever he is – are wrong.

    Now – please tell me again, in a fit of your usual cognitively dissonant stupidity, how I support maintaining Israeli ownership of land it occupies.

  35. Leonid

    Just wanted to repost the end of my first comment from this thread:
    "In the meantime, while the world focuses on Israel in induced-righteous outrage, demanding blood, and arguing about evil Zionists, apartheid, Nazism, and all the rest of the words the professional activist class misuse, all the things I’ve mentioned will keep happening, without anything being done about it.
    And in a few months, this incident will be resolved, the soldier will be punished and the professional activists will move onto the next outrage they provoke."

    In other words, true to form, the Jew haters have taken this incident, and true to form, blown it out of proportion – blaming Israel for everything, even to the level of denying that it’s a liberal democracy.

    In the meantime, this soldier’s getting investigated like he would if he were an Australian soldier being investigated under Australian laws. And there’ll be a result at some stage in a month or two.

    In the meantime hatred of jews has not helped the Israelis or the Palestinians one little bit, hasn’t made Israel any more moral to match the unreachable standards of the jew haters – but the Arabic dictators have ben rubbing their hands in glee because their useful idiots in the west are taking the focus of their efforts to bury freedom in a mass grave, by focusing on the only country that is even remotely close to free and responsible and moral in the Arab-speaking Middle East.

  36. DermottBanana

    I said ‘published’, you read ‘wrote’.
    And I note now you’ve put me *in* the Defence Force – another claim I have never made, but which I am sure you’re gunna argue makes me a liar when it turns out to be untrue.
    Even though I never said it.
    The relevant issue Leo is you put statements in the mouths of others, then attack them for it.

    As for this particular issue, yeah, a soldier fucked up. And was duly dealt with.
    But if Israel weren’t doing the dubious thing in the first place, the likelihood of the fuck-up occurring in the first place would be less.

  37. Leonid

    I apologise for the cock-up between published and wrote. It was a logn time ago – but you did big-note yourself none-the-less.

    Speaking of statements in tn the mouths of others – how about you speak to that vaginal itch, UAN, and explain it to him as well. You know, for the sake of honesty.

    Secondly – Israel was doign nothing dubious – it’s common practice in pretty much every non-peaceful country to call out the cavalry for when protesters show up. Call it insurance.

    Soldier over-reacted and was duly dealt with. I’m glad it took only ~55 posts for someone to finally agree and realise that this was a non-issue by the time it was posted.

    How many people died thanks to Islamic dictators in that time or had their rights to remain corporeal trampled on because of their sex or religion or orientation?

  38. Leonid

    Looks like there’s more to the story. Is anyone surprised?

    The Pallywood editors provided the world with a 5-min spliced clip. The Israeli soldiers and Eisner claim the incident lasted 2 hours and they were provoked and beaten with sticks.

    Eisner was admitted to hospital with two broken fingers and an injured wrist.

    Eisner and his story are being investigated and the International Solidarity Movement (aka Commies) are refusing to provide unedited video.

  39. Leonid

    You did big-note yourself. Why try get out of it?

    The difference between me and UAN, Aurelius, is that UAN will stand next to a Muslim fundamentalist decapitating a person and declare it’s Israel’s fault. I’ve met his type before – the BDS wankers.

    I’ve had a lof of fun with them on Facebook. They repeat the same old shit UAN does. 8000 kids arrested by Israel over 10 years. Apartheid. Nazism. Right of Refugees to return.

    Every single thing a well-demolished lie or an embellishment. Or a statistic without context.

    And you know what the funniest thing is? Every single Muslim in the BDS movement, every single one that I’ve laughed at, will not denounce Mohammed’s crimes. Every single one that is Shiite supports Iran’s treatment of Bahai’s. Every single one is virulently homophobic.

    I’ll quote one for you. His name is Hasanen. I can PM you his FB page. He recently completed a questionnaire:
    1. Whom you beleive the most?? Allah
    2. Will you be fast on Ramadan? Its not an option..Yes.
    3. IRAQ vs YEMEN? IRAQ WIN
    4. Which city U like to go for a Party? TEHRAN (SIN CITY)
    5. If you could remove 3 things from this world, what would they be? Israel
    6. Best nationality in the world? iraqi people r da best and we say fk da rest ;)
    7. Who is The Greatest Man who Ever Lived? Muhammad – Prophet of Islam
    8. What should girls STOP doing? being sluts
    9. Israel or PALESTINE? PALESTINE
    10. Do you support Gay Rights and Weed Legalazation? (Gay Rights) No
    11. IRAQ, or AUSTRALIA? IRAQ

    Here’s what he said to me directly:
    "Gays are sent to death because they are against all three of the Abrahmic relijions. You can’t live in a homo-sexual society, it’s like destroying the population of the world. God created man and women like he created a negative and a positive atom. Unlikes attract, Likes repel… Same with humans, If gays were allowed to roll-free, then soon the human population would begin to decrease."

    Do you know how many lefties rebuked him? Guess. I’ll give you a hint – it’s neither a negative or a positive number.

    They assured me he was a moderate muslim and how dare I attack his faith?

    What I need you to understand is that UAN, whether he’s an atheist, or an agnostic, is a leftist – just like these people. Hasanen – that guy I’m talking about is their darling. He has brown skin, was born in Iraq, speaks perfect English. He sounds good and looks good.

    The only thing is, he’s about three hours of propaganda away from decapitating someone. And yet they stand by him.

    The people running Saudi Arabia are truly awful. They fund the Socialist Alliance. There’s no proof but it’s commonly held to be true – it explains why the person who runs it in NSW, lives quite well, even though he’s on unemployment benefits. The country of Saudi Arabia does not let women drive. Those that insult Mohammed are imprisoned if they’re famous, or have their head erected on a pike at the main square in Riyadh. Apartheid there is well documented.

    Based on that, I believe Saudi Arabia to be collectively mentally ill. It is paid blood money by America for oil, and for the kings (who are more liberal than the populace thanks to an education not based on auto-fellatio of Mohammed and his crazed imams) to deal with terrorism. The kings do not succeed. Terror-funding flows to Hamas.

    Hamas are exactly like Hasanen – the homophobic Islamic fundamentalist bigot with a hatred of Australia, Jews and leftists – who is used by Socialist Alliance leftists to promote their Saudi-backed agenda to subvert Australian democracy in favour of Marxism, while bleating about human rights. Search me, how Marxism is compatible even slightly with human rights, but these aren’t sane people. Anyway, by themselves – they’re too few in number.

    They needed a victim and an aggressor. They found their victims – Muslims. Their aggressor should quite clearly have been Islam – it is the biggest killer of Muslims world-wide. They chose Israel instead – the idea of using history’s permanent scapegoat was as alluring to them as it was to the Dreyfus-era French, the Nazis, Stalin and the Muslim world now.

    So the socialist leftists aligned with the extremists Muslims and co-opted the language of human rights.

    Suddenly it became worse to accidentally kill a kid in a targeted missile attack on a terrorist than to creep into a house, force open a window, slaughter two kids aged 11 and 4, kill both parents and then give mercy to a 3-month old baby called Hadas Fogel, by decapitating her in her crib while filming it.

    Abbas is now considering naming a school for the fellow who did it. No investigation. No condemnation.

    This is the people who UAN wants to run a state. These are the people he supports.

  40. Leonid

    Here’s an example of black and white: You say that I’ve said "Israel is perfect."

    Here are my quotes in this thread:
    "Israel is not perfect"
    "There’s nothing perfect about Israel"

    Comments 28 and 10 respectively.

    What is anyone sane (basically – most people other than UAN) going to conclude about the way UAN conducts an argument by conducting a strawman for his opponents and arguing abusing their opponents as framing arguments only in black and white?

    UAN, you are exactly like every person from the socialist alliance/muslim co-operative I’ve described to Aurelius. You hear only what you want to hear – you are a dangerous ideologue who will defend any horrible action and any horrible fundamentalism as long as they are the enemy of your enemy.

  41. Leonid

    You’ll note that Europe (which knows a thing or two about anti-semitism) has a working definition of anti-semitism: http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-041-whine.htm

    "Examples of the ways in which anti-Semitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

    – Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

    – Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

    – Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

    – Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

    – Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."

    If that does not describe UAN to a tee, my name is Mohammed.

    Lets just take as an example – does UAN criticise any other country as much as he does Israel?

    India is occupying Kashmir, is accused of horrible human rights abuses, keeps Kashmiris in refugee camps, has nuclear weapons because it didn’t sign an NPT, has a wall between itself and Bangladesh that is still being built and is guarded by the Border Security Force – a semi-autonomous entity that is responsible for 1000-2000 deaths of mostly Muslim civilians (Indian and Bangladeshi) trying to cross the border.

    Ever hear UAN say a word about India? And that’s just one example – I could start on China, Russia, Brazil, Colombia, etc.

    The only difference between them and Israel is that Israel trends higher on twitter every time a Palestinian gets a well-deserved slap for throwing rocks, than when one of those countries casually drops a bomb on a village, just because.

  42. Leonid

    You argue that Palestinians have a right to create a country that will be a racist endeavour. It’s in their draft constitution. It’s in Hamas’ charter.

    You support the creation of a racist state, by opposing Israel.

    Israel has no policies for exclusion of non-Jewish people. If you were to, you know, spend about 20 minutes on Israel’s Ministry of the Interior homepage, you’d know this. Israel makes it easier for Jews to immigrate – this is in line with UN protocols defined in the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination Article I(3) – it doesn’t prevent immigration from any country except those it is at war with – irrespective of religion. Neither does it discriminate on religion. Plenty of non-Jewish Russian Orthodox Russians, ineligible under the Law of Return have taken the working-visa route to Israeli citizenship – likewise American Pentacostals, etc.

    "Not at all. When have I defend a country doing the same thing Israel is doing?
    Never."

    That’s actually kind of true. You just want to establish a country that tells you to your face that it wants to do what you think Israel is doing but isn’t.

    You’re also quiet as a church mouse on any abuse of human rights that doesn’t involve Israel.

    In the last week, six rockets have been fired into Israeli civilian centres. That’s a double war crime – firing an unguided ordnance into a civilian target, from behind civilian targets. Not one word against them, from you.

    In the last week probably another 30-40 Syrians have been killed by their government. Not one word against them from you.

    There’s not much difference between defending the indefensible and staying silent when it’s pointed out to you.

    So how about it UAN – RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW, denounce any state with anti-human rights Sharia Law in its constitution, any state with homophobia, chauvinism, racism at the core of its legal practises and constitution. Once you’re done – explain to me on what basis you support a Palestinian state founded on those exact principles?

    "- Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis."

    It’s true, you haven’t done this. Just Holocaust revisionism. Which is so much better.

    http://www.zgeek.com/2900-angry-jews-are-angry/

    "- Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
    Once again, when do I done this?"

    Once I’ve trawled through some of your replies on zgeek – I’ll let you know – hard to do on an iPad. However, I’ll repeat again – silence when someone does the wrong thing, is just as bad.

    To this end, I’d like an explanation of why in the thread "Israel acting just like the Nazis again", you did not once disagree with the title, if you did not think that to be the case?

    "Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
    Never ever done this."

    You want to read that thread about Sunol again?

    Or should I quote from it?

  43. Leonid

    You applaud me for not holding a position you invented that I hold. Rightio Leo.
    What state the Palestinians may or may not form is irrelevant to the fact they are occupied and oppressed currently.

    Lets see if we can get you to a state of enlightenment again. You say that what state they may or may not form is irrelevant because they are currently oppressed.

    Has it occurred to you by any chance that the same Palestinians in a hypothetical Palestinian state which you do not support, are the same Palestinians that are "oppressed" now?

    In other words the homophobic, the chauvinist, the racist, the baby-killing, the anti human-rights leadership and its majority supporters?

    Some of us decent people, refuse to accept things on principle, just because of purity principles. Sometimes you have to pick the least worst option. Israel conclusively proved that the Palestinians are not to be trusted when following international advice that terrorism would decrease as a direct proportion of land returned. They left Gaza in 2005 and were rewarded with an escalation in war crimes, leading to the blockade.

    The Palestinian people are not terrorist supporters because of the occupation. They’re occupied because they’re terrorist supporters.

    I already addressed the absurdity of such reasoning and such claims.
    Confirmation Bias much?
    "Everytime you post in a thread about Israel, it’s about Israel, there for all you must think and talk about is Israel."
    What nonsense.

    No Up_All_Night. It’s actually very easy to check. Punch "Up_All_Night China site:zgeek.com" into Google. Hell – any other country. The most hits you’ll get is for Israel. And all of them are against Israel.

    It’s only nonsense if you’re deaf, blind and stupid.

    You have an obsession with making Israel the bad guy in every situation, even in this situation when its done absolutely the right thing.

    I’ll repeat again for you:
    You are an anti-semite. You have never singled out any other country for criticism to a level comparable to what you dish out to Israel – I gave you the perfect opportunity, multiple times, to admit that what Israel did to this soldier was the right thing. You refused to admit that it was the right thing. You hate Israel so much that you can’t handle the concept of a democratic multi-ethnic, multi-religious society defending themselves from collective hordes of mentally ill people (what else do you call people who in this day and age still execute homosexuals?)

    Riled up. Nah. I just pointed out your claim was wrong.
    I did pepper it a little up front with some strong language as an illustrative point that you know. What you’re doing is actually what you’re claiming I was doing.
    Although now that you claim you were just, "playing." That you think think it’s something acceptable to…
    Ah I could do it again, but bless. I think you’re broken enough for one evening. With out adding that extra confusion into the works.

    So your problem is that I used the Holocaust card? I felt I should probably do it once, you know – so that the balance wasn’t tipped too far in your guys’ favour.

    Sigh, you still don’t get it’s not about sides.

    This is where you’re wrong. It’s about sides. There are two sides to this conflict.

    So a state can’t give human rights to people because they’d create a state that’s bad on human rights…. right…

    LOL. That’s hilarious. Tell me UAN – do you support America’s training and arming of the Pashtunis against the Russians? Do you think that was a good or bad idea in hindsight, given those exact same anti-Commie Pashtunis, turned into the Taliban, and destroyed somewhat moderate Afghanistan into the religious hell-hole it was with human rights of the Islamic chauvinist variety?

    Now – why should someone who’s taken a very hard lesson in history from every time this has happened – why should that person support giving any but the most basic rights to people who want to do the exact same thing to the minority in Palestine who are not mentally ill?

    You’re just blinded to the wrong that is the issue of cause for criticism of Israel. You’re just in a, justify justify. Your description of Israel there isn’t even in line with the facts. Denying sovereignty is a breach of human rights. And it’s the side that has killed more children than the other. By a pretty wide margin.
    However it just gets back to the ideological block in your head to which you then base reality.

    Really? Denying sovereignty is a breach of human rights?

    Interesting. In that case the following countries are in breach of human rights, just off the top of my head:
    1. Spain
    2. England
    3. America
    4. Turkey
    5. Iraq
    6. Israel
    7. New Zealand
    8. Australia
    9. Indonesia
    10. Egypt
    11. Lebanon
    12. Syria
    13. China
    14. Russia
    15. Colombia
    16. Argentina
    17. Pakistan
    18. India
    20. Azerbaijan
    21. Canada
    22. South Africa

    The last one’s interesting. There is a large collection of white farmers of Dutch background in South Africa that have lived there for 200-300 years and want a sovereign state for whites in South Africa. No doubt you’d support their right to self-determination.

    Hell pretty much every country in the world. They can’t all be against human rights, otherwise they wouldn’t have signed the declarations.

    Anyway, I’m going to go have a look at that declaration… oh look at that, in not a single one of the non-binding conventions, is there an explicit right for anyone to self-govern, nor a mechanism for enforcing that.

    We’ll leave the last word on that to the UNPO: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957
    "All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

    Sounds great! Anything else?
    "Nevertheless, the right to self-determination is recognized in international law as a right of process (not of outcome) belonging to peoples and not to states or governments."

    Oh bugger! There goes your argument.

    See, the thing is, the UN’s charters of rights and political rights gives everyone the right to seek self-determination, but there is absolutely no right to get what you want, just because you want it. Nobody prevents the Palestinians from wanting a state, do they?

    I’m going to be perfectly honest, and perfectly legal for you here:
    I support the right of the Palestinians to support the creation of their own state, but under no condition do I support the creation of a racist, homophobic, chauvinist, terrorist, apartheid, death-cult, mentally ill state.

    This unraveling is kind of sad. I’m in half a mind to just delete this post for your mental health.

    What’s sad is that it doesn’t bother you that the PA oppresses its own citizens. What would be worse, if New Zealanders treated us like shit, or if our own elected government did?

  44. Leonid

    And it’s the side that has killed more children than the other.

    This deserves it’s own comment but not a reply. I’ll leave this here along with the other reprehensible comment in this thread:

    People EXPECT Islamic [sic] nations in the middle east to be fucked up.

    The last one’s not yours, but maybe you could think about the sick mentality that uses body count as a measure of which side to support.

  45. Leonid

    As if I needed to prove my point more:

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/palestinian-sentenced-death-selling-home-jews_640592.html

    Former Palestinian intelligence official Muhammad Abu Shahala has reportedly been sentenced to death by the Palestinian Authority for selling a Hebron home to Jews. In response, Jewish officials from the community in Hebron are calling for international officials now to get involved—in order to save Abu Shahala’s life.

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